Jesus

[wizanda]

Biblical quiz of the day:

What's the name of Jesus' white horse?

Well Since he has many Diadems (Crown = Dimensions).......think i know the name of the rider, yet not the horse (possibly Chiron :rainbow1...

Where do you get that from?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Because the rest of us are "born" into God's family at baptism.

However, if the Son was with the Father before God began to create the universe (which would include heaven...where the Son was with the Father...then the Son existed outside of creation...hence, not created...not part of creation. He was begotten -- not made.

But how was he begotten if it weren't through Mary?...Since he existed before all of that... how did he come to be?

Jesus said that he was sent to earth, not by "His" will, but by the will of God.

Would it not stand to reason that Jesus was created (in heaven) and begotten on earth?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In all actuality I agree (paritially) well i feel that the canonized and docetered texts of the bible hold some inherent truth. I feel moreso that the true message is all that can be found in the NT because to much of at his been altered or changed by man refer to Robert Ehrman's "misquoting Jesus" As well the epistles and acts of Paul are fabricated nonsense. The man is a liar and a hypocrite and as such should be worthy of love but not of the position of apostle. His teaching's hold no integrity and so it is hard to assign them merit. The gospels both canonized and non-canonized are the steadfast word of God and as such are infallible and can be trusted however the man made dogma and doctrine surrounding Pauline Christianity are misleading and even dangerous to the quest for truth

Yes...speaking of opinionated........Pau/Saul...whatever he calls himself.....was really big on offering his opinion...


Just my opinion...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

most of christendom say that Jesus is God ,this is not true it is not based on bible teaching. the trinity teaching is not bible teaching it is manmade doctrine. so because i stick to the bible and know that God is the most high and he has a name Psalm 83;18 and i also know who Jesus christ is John 3;16 most people are bewildered by this simple bible teaching and think that they have got to make a big mystery out of God by teaching something else . dont be misled by the trinity teaching it is not true bible teaching it is manmade

I'm no JW...but I do agree with you here.

 

[may]

I'm no JW...but I do agree with you here.

yes many people who read the bible without the pre-concieved idea of the trinity can see very clearly that the bible does not teach the trinity.

 

[sojourner]

But how was he begotten if it weren't through Mary?...Since he existed before all of that... how did he come to be?

Jesus said that he was sent to earth, not by "His" will, but by the will of God.

Would it not stand to reason that Jesus was created (in heaven) and begotten on earth?

"Eternally Begotten" does not mean "born" in the sense that we think when we think of a human birth. Being born of Mary is the Incarnation. Being Eternally begotten of the Father is something else entirely.

The will of God is not the same thing as the will of humanity. Since Jesus was fully human and fully divine, I do not see a disconnect in him saying that he was sent by the will of God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

"Eternally Begotten" does not mean "born" in the sense that we think when we think of a human birth. Being born of Mary is the Incarnation. Being Eternally begotten of the Father is something else entirely.

I have a few bibles here and none of them say "eternally" begotten. Can you share with me the bible you are using or is this an interpertation.

Every verse where he is saying (sent, not by my will, but the father sent me).... Is him speaking of (before) he left heaven to come to earth. If he is in heaven and he is sent, not by his will but the will God, then there are no human qualities to speak of at this point. This is where there is a disconnect. If he is in heaven and has to be sent then he is surely not God.

 

[JayHawes]

Jesus was begotten into the flesh, he was born of woman. However he was never created, he always existed.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with Godhp

2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 

[may]

The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. ................. yes that is what Jesus is . then everything else was created through Jesus . he was the beginning of the creation by God(Jehovah)

 

[may]

Jesus was begotten into the flesh, he was born of woman. However he was never created, he always existed.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with Godhp

2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Yes, the logos or the word certainly was here in the flesh of a man . even though before he came to the earth he had a spirit body like God he gave it up and was born out of a woman (mary) and became flesh and blood instead, now that was humility indeed , he was willing to go along with his fathers purpose and be born in the flesh of a man. John 3;16 even to die a horrible death, and now because of Jesus integrity and obedience he is very highly exalted indeed , he is a reigning king in Gods heavenly kingdom goverment and it is this reigning king that will bring peace to the earth ... Daniel 2;44 Daniel 7;13-14
(Revelation 11:15)
Isaiah 9;6-7 He sure is a mighty God ,
and the ALMIGHTY JEHOVAH Psalm 83;18 Has taught Jesus many things ,
(John 8:28)
John 12:49, 50.
so that is why Jehovah said that we have got to listen to Jesus,
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."
yes he is the one to listen too ,because he is full of wisdom from God.
Jesus said: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3; 20:31) the true God is Jehovah , so we have to take in knowledge about this true God, and Jesus christ .

 

[sojourner]

I have a few bibles here and none of them say "eternally" begotten. Can you share with me the bible you are using or is this an interpertation.



Every verse where he is saying (sent, not by my will, but the father sent me).... Is him speaking of (before) he left heaven to come to earth. If he is in heaven and he is sent, not by his will but the will God, then there are no human qualities to speak of at this point. This is where there is a disconnect. If he is in heaven and has to be sent then he is surely not God.

Jn 8:58 for one example.
"...Before Abraham was, I am."

Yes, he is speaking of the time before he came. but he is speaking as the human Jesus, not as the divine God. Therefore, he is speaking from a human perspective.

 

[benign6]

Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God's first creation, and so he is called the "firstborn" Son of God. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14) Jesus is the only Son that God created by himself. Jehovah used the prehuman Jesus as his "master worker" in creating all other things in heaven and on earth. (Proverbs 8:22-31; Colossians 1:16, 17) God also used him as His chief spokesman. That is why Jesus is called "the Word."—John 1:1-3; Revelation 19:13. so there we have it , Jeus is Gods son , just as the bible teaches us . many people say that Jesus is God himself , but the bible quite clearly teaches us that Jesus is not God at all, he is Gods first-born son.

What about other "sons", so many of them mentioned in bible which include Prophets & Angels etc. What makes u believe that other sons r NOT real sone???

 

[sojourner]

he was the beginning of the creation by God(Jehovah)

Incorrect.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Jn 1.
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1.
These two passages, juxtaposed, clearly show that Jesus was not part of God's created order, but a precursor to creation.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jn 8:58 for one example.
"...Before Abraham was, I am."

This is another one of those verses that can have many meanings or iterpertations.

For example (Before Abaraham existed on earth I existed (in heaven))

Yes, he is speaking of the time before he came.

And in that statment as well as the others like it he was aware of his place in heaven as being subordinate to God. He wasn't making any of these statement to the people as if he was God but speaking as one of God's servents (in heaven). He knew that (in heaven) he was seperate from God. He made plenty of statements showing us that.

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh (This is Jesus praying to God of the power God gave him before he came to earth), that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:5
And now, O Father (this is Jesus praying to God in heaven), glorify thou me with thine own self (not his, Jesus', glory but God's glory) with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (at this point he is certainly speaking of a time when he had glory in heaven before the worlds existed).


Everytime he spoke, he spoke of himself seperate from God who sent him.


John 17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

As I have said (Oneness) but (NOT one in the same)

but he is speaking as the human Jesus, not as the divine God. Therefore, he is speaking from a human perspective.

Devine...Yes

God...NO

Even in his human perspective he speaks of God, whom he rferred to as "righteous Father sepertate from himself. Jesus' whole persona is revealed in John chapter 17. In that prayer (to God) we discover he is not God, we dicover their oneness, we discover the task given by God to Jesus is complete, we discover Jesus aknowledging God as the one true god and he, Jesus, is the messiah that God sent (from heaven).

There is no evidence that Jesus is the "Divine God" you speak of...but the contrary as shown in chapter 17 (Jesus' prayer to God).

I still have not found a referrence in the scripture of him being the "eternally" begotten.

 

[may]

What about other "sons", so many of them mentioned in bible which include Prophets & Angels etc. What makes u believe that other sons r NOT real sone???

Yes, but Jesus was the first born of creation , He was the only one created by Jehovah alone , everything else was created through Jesus , when Jesus was in heaven before he came to earth , he was Jehovahs first-born son . i am not saying that there are not other sons of God , in fact when the earth was created the sons of God shouted in applause, these were angelic sons of God.
Job 38:4-7 "the sons of God" who ‘shouted in applause’ when God ‘laid the cornerstone’ of the earth clearly were angelic sons and not humans descended from Adam (as yet not even created). So, too, at Psalm 89:6 "the sons of God" are definitely heavenly creatures, not earthlings. but the word or logos was the first-born .

 

[JayHawes]

Yes, but Jesus was the first born of creation , He was the only one created by Jehovah alone , everything else was created through Jesus , when Jesus was in heaven before he came to earth , he was Jehovahs first-born son . i am not saying that there are not other sons of God , in fact when the earth was created the sons of God shouted in applause, these were angelic sons of God.
Job 38:4-7 "the sons of God" who ‘shouted in applause’ when God ‘laid the cornerstone’ of the earth clearly were angelic sons and not humans descended from Adam (as yet not even created). So, too, at Psalm 89:6 "the sons of God" are definitely heavenly creatures, not earthlings. but the word or logos was the first-born .

It is common to assume "first born" means created. However The word "firstborn" does not mean created. It is jewish in nature.

[SIZE=+1]prwtovtokoß [/SIZE]Prototokos (pro-tot-ok'-os); is translated as firstborn.

The word firstborn emphasises being the first in rank, or the head -the one in charge. It could be better translated for the sake of understanding as pre-eminate one. He was not created, he is the one who created all things. One example is in Jeremiah 31:9, where Ephraim is called the Lord's firstborn, although Ephraim's older brother Manasseh was the literal firstborn.

Do realise that Jesus functions as the Diety of God in the ministry of the Son/ Word of God- The logos.

The phrase "sons of God" in Job refers to angels.

 

[may]

Incorrect.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Jn 1.
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1.
These two passages, juxtaposed, clearly show that Jesus was not part of God's created order, but a precursor to creation.

In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1;1 yes , without the power from God Jesus could not of done any of these things.
It is because of God’s will that all things "existed and were created." (Re 4:11) Jehovah, who has existed for all time, was alone before creation had a beginning.—Ps 90:1, 2; 1Ti 1:17.
Jehovah’s first creation was his "only-begotten Son" (Joh 3:16), "the beginning of the creation by God." (Re 3:14) This one, "the firstborn of all creation," was used by Jehovah in creating all other things, those in the heavens and those upon the earth, "the things visible and the things invisible." (Col 1:15-17) John’s inspired testimony concerning this Son, the Word, is that "all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence," and the apostle identifies the Word as Jesus Christ, who had become flesh. (Joh 1:1-4, 10, 14, 17) As wisdom personified, this One is represented as saying, "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way," and he tells of his association with God the Creator as Jehovah’s "master worker." (Pr 8:12, 22-31) In view of the close association of Jehovah and his only-begotten Son in creative activity and because that Son is "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15; 2Co 4:4), it was evidently to His only-begotten Son and master worker that Jehovah spoke in saying, "Let us make man in our image."—Ge 1:26.............................. so inline with the rest of the bible , John 1;1 makes perfect sense when it is translated correctly .
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence........... the beginning is refering to the beginning of creation

(Proverbs 8:22) "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.​

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;​

(Revelation 3:14) "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,....................... yes the bible harmonizes throughout when the bible is translated correctly , and the truth does not hang on one verse ,but it harmonizes all through the bible . many many people have been misled to believe the false teaching that Jesus is God , but when the bible is taken as a whole the truth is very clear indeed , ........ the truth is Jesus is not God . and translating the bible in a wrong way has misled many many people to take on false teachings not in harmony with the rest of the bible . but it is good to know that some bibles out there have been translated in the right way and then there is no contratiction. and this online bible is one of the best, or in my thoughts the very best.
Bible Online
1In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

 

[may]

The passage you quoted in Psalms 82:6 refers to mere men, the word "gods" in that verse should be understood as judges as is translated and understood in Exodus 21:6.

i didnt quote that verse i quoted psalm 89;6

 

[JayHawes]

In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1;1 yes , without the power from God Jesus could not of done any of these things.
It is because of God’s will that all things "existed and were created." (Re 4:11) Jehovah, who has existed for all time, was alone before creation had a beginning.—Ps 90:1, 2; 1Ti 1:17.
Jehovah’s first creation was his "only-begotten Son" (Joh 3:16), "the beginning of the creation by God." (Re 3:14) This one, "the firstborn of all creation," was used by Jehovah in creating all other things, those in the heavens and those upon the earth, "the things visible and the things invisible." (Col 1:15-17) John’s inspired testimony concerning this Son, the Word, is that "all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence," and the apostle identifies the Word as Jesus Christ, who had become flesh. (Joh 1:1-4, 10, 14, 17) As wisdom personified, this One is represented as saying, "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way," and he tells of his association with God the Creator as Jehovah’s "master worker." (Pr 8:12, 22-31) In view of the close association of Jehovah and his only-begotten Son in creative activity and because that Son is "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15; 2Co 4:4), it was evidently to His only-begotten Son and master worker that Jehovah spoke in saying, "Let us make man in our image."—Ge 1:26.............................. so inline with the rest of the bible , John 1;1 makes perfect sense when it is translated correctly .
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence........... the beginning is refering to the beginning of creation

(Proverbs 8:22) "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.​

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;​

(Revelation 3:14) "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,....................... yes the bible harmonizes throughout when the bible is translated correctly , and the truth does not hang on one verse ,but it harmonizes all through the bible . many many people have been misled to believe the false teaching that Jesus is God , but when the bible is taken as a whole the truth is very clear indeed , ........ the truth is Jesus is not God . and translating the bible in a wrong way has misled many many people to take on false teachings not in harmony with the rest of the bible . but it is good to know that some bibles out there have been translated in the right way and then there is no contratiction. and this online bible is one of the best, or in my thoughts the very best.
Bible Online
1In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

John 3:16 does not say Jesus was God's first creation. You may understand the verse ""the beginning of the creation by God." (Re 3:14)" incorrectaly. The word begining comes from the greek Arche, which means the Origin. This verse means Jesus is the origin of creation, not the first created.


John 1:1 is already translated correctly.A true understanding of the original text would proove such. "In the beginging was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God". An inccorect translation would be "a god." This is in direcy contradiction of :


Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me..

There is only one God, and besides God there is no god.
The Bible is very clear on who Jesus is:

Mt 1:23 -Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Juadism and Christanity are monothesitic, if we are to say Jesus is "a god" then arises a problem. Becuase then there would be two gods, instead of One.

I suggest the following to answer the questions that arise. http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp025.asp

 

[JayHawes]

i didnt quote that verse i quoted psalm 89;6

sorry about that. I saw an inverted number 6:areyoucra