• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jewish Messiah

rosends

Well-Known Member
Simply using Genesis 5:2 and combining it with Psalms 139:5 is, to me, a very tenuous connection which does not justify the Jewish Rabbinic belief/claim/opinion, etc.

So you still don’t understand about the various possible roles of midrash and think that your personal take on whether a conclusion drawn as one interpretive opinion matters.

While the concept of the androgyne allowed the rabbis to reconcile the two accounts of Creation, The scriptures simply don't tell us God “sawed” Adam in half, or that he specifically had two sets of sexual organs (both male and female). The text doesn’t tell us Adam was able to have sex with himself and have children without the need for Eve (as another rabbinic opinion tells us).

Unless you insist on being a slave to the literal and limited words that you read in your handy-dandy translation. In that case, most of Judaism will make no sense to you and you will be rejecting Jesus’ edict to follow the rabbinic teachings. If that works for you, then have fun.

Yes, such a Rabbinic belief would be incredibly hard to defend just like many, many of the teachings and rules the rabbis created.

I don’t recall saying that anything would be difficult to defend. I said that there isn’t much to defend because this relies more on a belief system and if you have no belief then no defense will convince you.

Of course you want individuals to believe in the authority of Rabbinic Judiasm, else you would not argue in favor of it's having authority..

I don’t want anyone to believe anything of the sort. I don’t care if people believe or not. What matters is that you understand that your statements are coming from a context that lacks belief and is therefore uninteresting to anyone who has that belief. If you don’t believe in the freedom of the press, then your criticisms of the legal points derived from the first amendment are useless.

You claim you are free as a Jew to "reject or question" the teachings of "Rabbinic Judaism".
That is all that I and others are doing.

Sort of, but you are doing it by rejecting the entire authority and system instead of dealing with the initial issue and using similar methods to present different interpretations. You are not rejecting a specific teaching, explaining why (taking into account the logic used without dismissing it) you reject the conclusion and working to present your own conclusion. You are rejecting the entire model.

I am questioning how in the world your leaders came up with such bizarre doctrines on so little actual objective data.

I am questioning what sort of logic underlies such bizarre Rabbinic beliefs.

Exactly – you aren’t looking at this case and questioning, but looking at the entire system and rejecting it. But since you aren’t Jewish, who cares?

I did not ask you to support this Jewish belief with Midrashim along but you are welcome to use Old Testament Text and then simply explaining the logic underlying such bizarre Rabbinic Teachings.

Jewish teachings are limited by the biblical text because part of Judaism is the acceptance of the existence of a complementary set of laws and ideas.

Since the Rabbis are quoting old testament texts and then giving their personal interpretations of these texts to create this Jewish doctrine, perhaps you could start there?

Who said that they are “personal”? They are based on a particular methodology and informed by the biblical text and Jewish belief.

While this belief that Adam had both male and female sex organs may not be "strange" to Jewish students, it is a very strange and Bizarre belief on the planet where many of the rest of us come from.
Absolutely, and it isn’t even the weirdest thing about Judaism. Why you have focused on this and not the myriad other examples fascinates me.

Can you explain to readers why this belief is NOT "strange" or "tenuous" in it's usage of the Old Testament text to come to this belief?

How can I explain to someone why something I respect as appearing weird isn’t actually weird? The system of interpretation is firmly part of Jewish tradition and infuses what Judaism always has been What should seem weird to anyone who is paying attention is why the religion, at its most foundational, demands exactly this kind of understanding.

then why do you assume the Rabbis have any more authority to create such doctrines/beliefs and teach them to others without data or supporting logic.

Because biblically, they are imbued with that power (they are the judges of our day).
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
2) ADAM CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD - THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION COMPARED TO THE JEWISH TRADITION

Why do you think I have any interest in the Christian tradition?

Of course you want individuals to believe in the authority of Rabbinic Judiasm, else you would not argue in favor of it's having authority..

Again, you are telling me what I believe and what I want. You are wrong but if you need to impute motives so you can find conflict, have fun with that.

And you keep cutting and repasting long sections to which you add nothing. I have no idea why.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @paarsurrey

Clear said : " Instead of prophetic revelation as a source of religion, the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. "

@paarsurrey said : A wonderful point of our friend @Clear , can one please elaborate?:
Why did the Judaism people resort to adopting to the inferior " Rabbinic Judaism" and or condescending to it by leaving the truthful "Prophetic Religion" based on Word of Revelation, please?



I think this is a complicated issue without a single answer and we are getting to the edges of my historical interest.
I do think that there are multiple processes at work. However, perhaps I can speculate a bit on the role this current issue of changing the meaning of the Biblical text played in the apostasy of the Rabbis as they abandoned "Prophetic Judaism", and created "Rabbinic Judaism" as well as rejected "Messianic Judaism" (The Judaism that accepted the Messiah Jesus).



1) HYPERSPIRITUALIZATION – HYPERMETAPHORIZATION OF THE BIBILCAL TEXT

Jewish Rabbis were not priests, but they were teachers and theologians who developed Jewish doctrines and then passed these doctrines which they created, onto the Jewish populace for popular consumption.

However, the tendency for these teachers was to spiritualize almost EVERYTHING. In the Talmud, there is spiritualization of almost every verse, and often down to individual letters INSIDE OF INDIVIDUAL WORDS. I’ll give examples of several types.

For example : Genesis 1:22 says of the water creatures and fowl, God blessed them, saying “Be fruitful and multiply…”.

A) One Rabbinic teaching regarding the words “God blessed them” is : “these creatures needed a special blessing because so many are intentionally reduced in number – hunted down and eaten. The land animals that were created on the sixth day needed such a blessing, too, but God did not confer one on them so as not to include the serpent, which was destined to be cursed.”

1) Such speculations regarding God’s intent on word choice do not come from any biblical text but is simply a speculation representing personal opinion of one or more influential rabbis.

2) There is no evidence that such discrete traditions existed before this dominant, Rabbinic Judaism created such teaching . Thus, such opinions and traditions are not even necessarily representative of the earliest Judaic traditions, but rather these personal speculations simply represent the type of Judaism that dominated after the loss of the Temple and the collapse of the Priestly order of Sadducees, and the subsequent domination of one or more types of Pharisaic Judaism.


Because such Rabbinic speculations are personal additions to biblical traditions, They often simply represent the rabbi s’ personal speculation on minutiae.

B) For example, consider the next four words in vs 22 are : Be fruitful and multiply.

The rabbis interpretation in the printed Talmud is that Had the verse not added “and multiply”, each creature would produce only one offspring.

Thus, the rabbi felt that God had to add the word “multiply”, since, as this tradition says the word multiplyadds multiple births to the blessing, so each would bring forth many.”.

Such discrete assignment to meanings of words is quite arbitrary and dependent upon the opinion of the rabbi.

Why does this tradition indicate God has to add “multiple”, otherwise, births will all be single?
Because the rabbi (The great Rashi this case) interpreted it in this way.



Often such Talmudic traditions are created, not because they actually exist in Torah or Tanakh (Hebrew bible), but because the Rabbis wished to combat competing theologies of the time.

For example, regarding Gen 1:26 : “Let us make man in our Image, after our Likeness”.

the Targum Yonasan paraphrases the Talmud (midrash) thusly : When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse (let us make), which is in the plural and implies that there is more than one Creator, he said : “Sovereign of the Universe! Why do you thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?” “Write!” God replied. “Whoever wishes to err will err

Again, such a tradition clearly does not originate inside the tanakhs' (Hebrew bible) text, but was created to answer to a theological need of its day.


Such hyperspeculation and creation of inauthentic textual traditions are not merely abundant at the level of words, but rabbinic speculation and spiritualizing and imbibing of meaning is frequent on the level of putting meaning into individual LETTERS!
Even if they had to re-arrange letters to create theological meaning!


For example, consider Hebrew Genesis 2:4 : These are the products of the heaven and the earth when they were created…

The Midrash says :The letters of this word can be rearranged to spell באבהם, meaning that God created the world for the sake of Abraham (Midrash). Such transparent attempts to CREATE obscure and mysterious and secret “meanings” where none really, and truly exists becomes typical of rabbinic literature.

For example, Rabbi Avie Gold says of this same verse it may be that the letter ה of this word is small to symbolize that Abraham’s name Abraham had an ה added to it”.

Such attempts to create spiritual meanings (even in individual letters) rather than to simply take the text at face value comes to characterize Rabbinic thought and actions. Reading the Talmud (mishna) feels as though the rabbis are trying to outdo each other in speculations and symbolism instead of authentic spirituality.



The addition of such speculations to Jewish theology creates a whole different biblical tradition.
It is improper addition to theology that is taking place.

For example, in Genesis 4:8 says : “Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.”
This specific text does not tell us HOW Abel is killed.

Yet the rabbinic tradition is as follows :
Gen 4:10 “…The voice of your brothers blood cries out to me(Literally “bloods”) The word is in the plural…this teaches that he bled from many wounds. Not knowing which organs were vital to life, Cain stabbed him all over.” (Rashi: Sanhedrin 37a)

Where in the biblical text does such elaboration and discrete detail regarding Cains knowledge and motive and intent and actions exist? Though such speculations are common, they are not particularly accurate in terms of building our concept and models as to what actually happened in this story.

The creation of such silly speculations becomes part of the rabbinic creation of Judaic theology. It creates a very different virtual version of biblical stories. Entire textual traditions that didn’t ever really happen create a virtual “bible” that never existed.

As another example : the Hebrew text of Genesis 49:5 says : “”…For in their rage [Simeon and Levis’] they murdered people and at their whim they hamstrung an ox.”

Rashi tell us that this means that Simeon and Levi sought to disable Joseph, who is figuratively likened to an Ox; (see Deut 33:17)” while Ramban “interprets ox literally, as a reference to the livestock of Shechem. “ In this virtual bible, “Not only did they kill the men of Shechem, they destroyed its cattle”.

Both of these virtual Jewish bibles that tell us incredibly different stories than the literal bible does, and it exists outside of the biblical text.



“DO NOT ADD OR TAKE AWAY FROM IT
This sort of systematic adding to and taking away from the biblical narrative was happening among a people who had already been told, not to do this very thing : Deut 12:32 tells the Jews regarding the Torah, "....do not add to it or take away from it.".

To the degree that there rabbis created a theology that no longer followed the intent of the biblical text, to that degree a separate and inconsistent religion was created. And, just as they created very strange and unusual traditions surrounding the concept of a hermaphrodite adam, they created a tradition surrounding a spiritualized God who did not have an image after which Adam was created.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO


To the degree that the rabbis created a theology which no longer reflected the ancient God, they created a textual idol and surrounding theological assumptions in the place of the early Jewish God.

Barnabas warns the Christians who are becoming proud : “..., do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely in the following way, when Moses had just received it. ...But by turning to idols they lost it.. The Epistle of Barnabas 4:6.

In the context of the Jews losing their prophetic gifts and their transfer to the early Christians; in context of the Jews losing their temple with it’s priesthood worship and being left with synagoges instead; in the context of the Jews losing their priests and their being left with the necessity of turning to mere teachers (rabbis) instead, the texts tell us Israel was repeatedly warned that they were not maintaining authentic and pure religion :

The Prophet Ezra told his people : Hear these words, O Israel. At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt and they were delivered from there, 30 and received the Law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them. The land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;

The Lord tells the prophet Moses, speaking of Israel : And you, write for yourself all of these words which I shall cause you to know today, for I know their rebelliousness and their stubbornness before I cause them to enter the land which I swore to their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying , ‘I will give to your seed a land flowing with milk and honey.’ And they will eat and be satisfied, and they will turn to strange gods, to those who cannot save them from any of their affliction. And this testimony will be heard as a testimony against them, for they will forget all of my commandments, everything which I shall command them...” Jubilees (the book of division) 1:4-10;

Levi tells his sons that :When vengeance will have come upon them from the Lord, the priesthood will lapse. “ and be given to another.” and after relating that which will happen to Israel, he sternly tells his children : “And now, my children, you have heard everything. Choose for yourselves light or darkness, the Law of the Lord or the works of Beliar.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi ch 18 & 19:1;


It is not simply that the Jews were adding to the biblical tradition, but by the rabbinical tradition, they have kept their followers from learning truth.

For example, In Deuteronomy 4:32 the Hebrew translation reads :
For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day when God created man on the earth and from one end of heaven to the other end of heaven:...”

In Gen Rabba, the rabbis teach the Jews : IT is forbidden to inquire what existed before creation, as Moses distinctly tells us (Deut. 4. 32): 'Ask now of the days that are past which were before thee, since the day God created man upon earth.' Thus the scope of inquiry is limited to the time since the Creation.–(Gen. Rabba 1)

Such prohibitions against inquiring regarding conditions that existed in heaven before the creation create barriers to learning many, many of the most profoundly important truths concerning God; concerning his plan and his motives and conditions that allow mortality to make much more sense.

It is no wonder then that the earliest textual traditions that discuss and describe conditions before creation are relatively unknown among Jews who inherited such prohibitions to knowledge about such themes. It is just such prohibitions to knowledge that reminds me of Jesus’ trying to teach the Jews regarding conditions leading to ignorance of God.


Jesus said : "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52

This same tradition existed in other Christian traditions : The Gospel of Thomas also refers to this same condemnation of Jewish leaders, saying : Jesus said, “The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to….” THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS vs 39;

Messianic Jews themselves were aware of this systematic problem and describe it in almost the same words : “They hold back the drink of knowledge from those that thirst, and for their thirst they give them vinegar to drink, that they might observe their error, behaving madly at their festivals and getting caught in their nets.” Dead Sea Scrolls 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q Col. 12:10-11

In another textual tradition, Moses is told by God that “...when the times of exposure come near and punishment arises through kings who (though) sharing their crimes yet punish them, then they themselves will be divided as to the truth. Consequently the word was fulfilled that they will avoid justice and approach iniquity; and they will pollute the house of their worship with the customs of the nations; and they will play the harlot after foreign gods. For they will not follow the truth of God, (Testament of Moses 5:1-6)

It was not merely the Messiah Jesus who described the Jewish temple as having become a den of thieves."( Mark 11:17), but the reformation espoused by Qumran Jews themselves is quite scathing in its condemnation of the Jewish priestly faction that administered in the Corrupted Jewish temple before it was destroyed by the Romans.

These sorts of abuse and doctrinal changes by Sadducees and Pharisees and later by rabbis as they rose to greater power (and the jewish Priesthood declined after destruction of the temple) may be part of why Jesus railed against certain of the Jews whohold the tradition of men” and “reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” Mark 7:7-9


IF, at some point, the Gospel of Salvation was contaminated by man-made traditions so that it could no longer be recognized and delivered to mankind in sufficient clarity among the Jewish traditions then it only makes sense that such truths would be cleaned up and delivered through another group (at least until the next group abuses and contaminates them in the same way the Jews did).

When Jesus prophesies to the Jews that “... The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:42-43)

This prophecy was no different than that which the Prophet Ezra had predicted : “... You would not obey me, O Judah. I will turn to other nations and will give them my name, that they may keep my statutes. Because you have forsaken me, I also will forsake you. 25 When you beg mercy of me, I will show you no mercy. 26 When you call upon me, I will not listen to you; for you have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit murder. 27 It is not as though you had forsaken me; you have forsaken yourselves, ... (The Fourth Book of Ezra 1:24-37)

I’m going to stop here for now. I hope it makes sense just how the Rabbinical system creates theology that changes both the biblical texts meaning as well as the theology of Judaism itself. This is simply one mechanism underlying how Rabbinic Judaism apostatized from correct Prophetic Religion. Give me some time to think and I will add to this.

See you @paarsurrey



Clear
 
Last edited:

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
" Instead of prophetic revelation as a source of religion, the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. "

A wonderful point of our friend @Clear , can one please elaborate?:

Why did the Judaism people resort to adopting to the inferior " Rabbinic Judaism" and or condescending to it by leaving the truthful "Prophetic Religion" based on Word of Revelation, please?

Regards
I realize that English is not your first language, but you should be aware thaty "the Judaism people" is improper English. Correct English is simply "the Jews."

There is nothing inferior about Rabbinic Judaism.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
" Instead of prophetic revelation as a source of religion, the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. "

A wonderful point of our friend @Clear , can one please elaborate?:

Why did the Judaism people resort to adopting to the inferior " Rabbinic Judaism" and or condescending to it by leaving the truthful "Prophetic Religion" based on Word of Revelation, please?
I realize that English is not your first language, but you should be aware thaty "the Judaism people" is improper English. Correct English is simply "the Jews."

There is nothing inferior about Rabbinic Judaism.
As our friend @Clear has illustrated " the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. ", if that has no clear bases in Moses, then it must be inferior, I understand, right?

Regards
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
" Instead of prophetic revelation as a source of religion, the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. "

A wonderful point of our friend @Clear , can one please elaborate?:

Why did the Judaism people resort to adopting to the inferior " Rabbinic Judaism" and or condescending to it by leaving the truthful "Prophetic Religion" based on Word of Revelation, please?

As our friend @Clear has illustrated " the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. ", if that has no clear bases in Moses, then it must be inferior, I understand, right?

Regards
well, actually your friend did not illustrate, he simply labeled and claimed. What you call "rabbinic Judaism" is the continuation of the same Judaism as established through the Mosaic code. The biblical text explains about how authority works and the oral law (unless you want to claim that anything beyond the literal and written text is invention and inauthentic) presents the rules by which that continued authority operates. It is not the case that this is "personal interpretation" or the like but you seem to have decided that it is because someone who says something you like said so. Right?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
paarsurrey said:

As our friend @Clear has illustrated " the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. ", if that has no clear bases in Moses, then it must be inferior, I understand, right?

Regards
The Torah specifically gives the Rabbis the authority to interpret the law and not be questioned. Please see Deuteronomy 17:8-13

This is why there is no such thing as "Bible only" Judaism.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Deut. 17:8-13 does not speak of Jewish rabbis, but of Levite priests and judges who were in Israel at the time of Moses.

8 “If a case arises in one of your cities that is too difficult for you to judge, whether it is a case involving bloodshed or a legal claim that has been raised or a violent deed that has been committed or other matters of dispute, you should rise up and go to the place that Jehovah your God chooses. 9 Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge serving in those days, and make your inquiry, and they will hand down the decision to you. 10 Then you must act according to the decision that they hand down to you from the place that Jehovah chooses. Be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. 11 You must act according to the law that they show you and according to the decision that they declare to you. Do not deviate from the decision that they will hand down to you, either to the right or to the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who is ministering to Jehovah your God or to the judge must die. You must remove what is bad from Israel. 13 All the people will then hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore.

Modern Jews do not have Levite priests ministering Jehovah in his tabernacle or in his temple.
And which judge are they going to ask?

It reminds me of the Catholic saying that the Pope is God's representative on earth and what he says is the word of God.
How dare humans put their understanding above the Word of God?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Deut. 17:8-13 does not speak of Jewish rabbis, but of Levite priests and judges who were in Israel at the time of Moses.

8 “If a case arises in one of your cities that is too difficult for you to judge, whether it is a case involving bloodshed or a legal claim that has been raised or a violent deed that has been committed or other matters of dispute, you should rise up and go to the place that Jehovah your God chooses. 9 Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge serving in those days, and make your inquiry, and they will hand down the decision to you. 10 Then you must act according to the decision that they hand down to you from the place that Jehovah chooses. Be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. 11 You must act according to the law that they show you and according to the decision that they declare to you. Do not deviate from the decision that they will hand down to you, either to the right or to the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who is ministering to Jehovah your God or to the judge must die. You must remove what is bad from Israel. 13 All the people will then hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore.

Modern Jews do not have Levite priests ministering Jehovah in his tabernacle or in his temple.
And which judge are they going to ask?

It reminds me of the Catholic saying that the Pope is God's representative on earth and what he says is the word of God.
How dare humans put their understanding above the Word of God?
At first they were called the 70 elders, appointed by Moses. Later they were called judges. and later the judges were called rabbis. It's all the same thing.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Read again:

Deut.17:8 “If a case arises in one of your cities that is too difficult for you to judge, whether it is a case involving bloodshed or a legal claim that has been raised or a violent deed that has been committed or other matters of dispute, you should rise up and go to the place that Jehovah your God chooses. 9 Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge serving in those days, and make your inquiry, and they will hand down the decision to you. 10 Then you must act according to the decision that they hand down to you from the place that Jehovah chooses. Be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. 11 You must act according to the law that they show you and according to the decision that they declare to you. Do not deviate from the decision that they will hand down to you, either to the right or to the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who is ministering to Jehovah your God or to the judge must die. You must remove what is bad from Israel. 13 All the people will then hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore.

Modern Judaism is not biblical judaism. You already know that. :rolleyes:
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Read again:

Deut.17:8 “If a case arises in one of your cities that is too difficult for you to judge, whether it is a case involving bloodshed or a legal claim that has been raised or a violent deed that has been committed or other matters of dispute, you should rise up and go to the place that Jehovah your God chooses. 9 Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge serving in those days, and make your inquiry, and they will hand down the decision to you. 10 Then you must act according to the decision that they hand down to you from the place that Jehovah chooses. Be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. 11 You must act according to the law that they show you and according to the decision that they declare to you. Do not deviate from the decision that they will hand down to you, either to the right or to the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who is ministering to Jehovah your God or to the judge must die. You must remove what is bad from Israel. 13 All the people will then hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore.

Modern Judaism is not biblical judaism. You already know that. :rolleyes:
I have studied the passage in depth. It CLEARLY lays out that mere men have the God given authority to interpret the Law without being questioned.

There is therefore NO SUCH THING as "Biblical" Judaism, because the BIBLE demands that men interpret.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
An interesting article I read a few years ago says:

(...) in the second century B.C.E., a quiet revolution began within Judaism, indelibly affecting Jewish thought from that point on.

Regarding this spiritual metamorphosis, Daniel Jeremy Silver writes in A History of Judaism: “At [that] time a class of nonpriestly scribes and scholars began to challenge the legitimacy of the priestly monopoly of Torah [Mosaic Law] interpretation. Everyone agreed that priests were necessary as Temple functionaries, but why should they have a final voice on Torahic matters?” Who were the instigators of this challenge to the authority of the priestly class? A new group within Judaism called the Pharisees. Silver continues: “The Pharisees based admissions to their academies on merit, not on birth [priestly descent], and they brought a new class of Jews into religious leadership.”

By the first century C.E., the graduates of these Pharisaic academies came to be known as teachers, or masters, of Jewish law. As a sign of respect, other Jews began to refer to them as “my teacher,” or “my master,” in Hebrew, rabbi.

Nothing could give more legitimacy to this new title than to apply it to the one viewed as the greatest teacher in Jewish history, Moses. The effect would further diminish the emphasis on the priesthood while bolstering the image of the increasingly influential Pharisaic leadership. Thus, over 1,500 years after his death, Moses was retroactively designated “Rabbi.”
You can read the entire article here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1996486

Besides Deut. 17:8-13,
Lev. 10:8-11, Deut. 24:8 and Mal. 2:7 state to whom were given the responsibility and authority to teach and explain the Law: to the descendants of Aaron, the priests of the tribe of Levi.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You don't know when the Jewish Rabis began to appear and why? ;)
The Rabbis are the successors of the judges -- individuals learned in Jewish law so that they can adjudicate. It was the Pharisees who started using the word Rabbi to describe such men.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
The Rabbis are the successors of the judges -- individuals learned in Jewish law so that they can adjudicate. It was the Pharisees who started using the word Rabbi to describe such men.
Where do the Scriptures say that? :oops:

Besides, Lev. 17:8-13 does not speak of JUDGES but about THE JUDGE (singular) who would be judging at the time. ;)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Where do the Scriptures say that? :oops:

Besides, Lev. 17:8-13 does not speak of JUDGES but about THE JUDGE (singular) who would be judging at the time. ;)
It says "judge" because judges existed. If I have a question about how to apply the Law, I go to the rabbi of my congregation, who is the judge. Historically, the highest judges were the 70 elders, aka the sanhedrin.

And like I said, Rabbi is simply the new word for Judge. The office is the same--a person who is an expert in the Law and so can adjudicate.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
You already know when and why "rabbis" originated. Now you have to understand what that means: they did not want the Levite priests to have the last word on Biblical matters, so they dared to form schools even though they had no divine authority to do so. They forced the Jews to accept their self-provided titles, as if that would entitle them to teach instead of the priests. When the temple was destroyed, the priests would no longer be the teachers, so they took advantage and stayed with their system invented by themselves.

It reminds me of the sects of Christendom and its schools of theology. They believe that they are more empowered to study in theological schools at world famous universities. Isn't the similarity curious?
 
Top