Jewish Only: Studies

[Avi1001]

No. Rev. Jackelén was scheduled to speak at my synagogue. The Rabbi intended to take her and her husband to dinner but he was called away on an emergency. Fortunately, the 'task' fell to me (although I remember being a bit nervous at the time). Later she gave a very interesting talk on תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ as the context of creation.

Sounds like a great experience !

 

[Dena]

What do you think should be the ratio of secular/religious studies for kids from kindergarten to before highschool, and then from the beginning of high school to graduation?

If they spend 8 hours a day, how many hours would you dedicate to religious studies for your children?

Well, what's included? I wouldn't consider Hebrew for example, to be purely "religious study" and would likely group it with regular school work same as I would Spanish or another language.

 

[Avi1001]

For the record, I think an eleven-hour school day is not a good idea. It leaves kids no room for extracurricular activities or to have a personal life, and I think they need those opportunities. A slightly longer school day (9 hours instead of 8, maybe) could be justified, but not much more than that, I think.

I hadn't thought much about this until CMike posted that he had 11 hour school days at Yeshiva. What I would like to discuss is education. It doesn't matter whether it is Jewish or secular education.

I think there are some very subtle, but broader and important issues involved here. Our economy is now considered to be mid-cycle in our recovery. This is really quite scary because it may indicate that the next downward part of the cycle is coming soon. This has been a very mild recovery, so the thought of a downturn is almost terrifying.

How does this relate to the student work week ? I believe we need a real shift in how we deal with the global economy. Going from an 8 hour work day, in our workplace, to 9 hours will probably not be enough to repair our economy. We might just need 10 or 11 hours. Time will tell.

And if we do need 10 or 11 hours, how will we prepare our children to have this sort of discipline ? Maybe in school (there is a novel idea)?

And I can also say, from long experience teaching, that kids who have Jewish Studies only once or twice a week do not learn anything approaching what they need to know to have any kind of basic mastery of texts and text skills, much less practical Judaics. This is especially true given that in general, the majority of these students are coming from drastically undereducated homes, with negligible traditional practice to reinforce what they are taught in school. It gets even worse if part of that couple of hours a week is spent trying to teach Hebrew language as well-- that basically ensures the student will never have adequate fluency or master text skills.

Most children and adults under the age of 25 do not have the bandwidth for in-depth religious education. The ethical and moral training of Judaism is time well spent. Other than this, the time is better spent building fundamental skills, including problem solving. Also, as I said, a focus on math, chemistry, physics and biology will build critical thinking skills !

When we're talking about a couple of hours a week, that boils down to Hebrew School education. And anyone who has worked seriously in Jewish education can tell you that Hebrew School education is, by and large, a joke. Sure, there's always the occasional student that is incredibly bright and self-motivated, and manages to make something out of it; and every once in a blue moon there's some Hebrew School that goes over and above, and manages to make its four to six hours a week really amazing. But in the end, students who end up with real Hebrew skills, real text skills, and real experience reading Jewish text and studying Jewish observance are the ones who do it every day of the school week, plus go to shul on Shabbos, plus experience learning and observance in the home.

I can attest to Hebrew School education being "a joke". I was raised Conservative, and learned almost nothing in Hebrew School. The student has to want to learn. Once you reach that, there is no stopping her/him.

It was asked whether a strong Jewish education is correlated with marriage to a Jewish spouse. Review the Pew data. The highest retention is for Reform. Will a fine Orthodox or Conservative education prevent intermarriage ? I would say, probably not !

If that's not a priority for people, of importance significant enough to measure alongside secular subjects, then there's no real point sending one's kid to a Jewish school.

I agree. I wouldn't send mine. I believe in strong, secular education. When they are ready, they can get their religious education studying Torah nights and weekends, from the Jewish Study Bible.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would encourage intense appreciation for and curiosity about Torah, though I make no claim to knowing how to sustain such an attitude much less how to achieve it in others. I would also encourage a Torah study that embraces secular input and analysis including archaeological, paleontological and philological studies. The wall around the Torah should not be there to protect it (or us) from scientific knowledge.

As for Hebrew, it is an area of significant personal weakness and one that I find very hard to overcome. The one silver lining is that I don't presume to know what the Hebrew text means and find myself forced to turn to experts in the field for explication.

 

[Levite]

Most children and adults under the age of 25 do not have the bandwidth for in-depth religious education.

I have simply not found this to be true. Many if not most have the abilities, skill potentials, and ability to engage: what they need is teaching that is both high quality and consistent, and just as much, they need context. If there is no Torah study and no meaningful observance in the home, or in their social environment, then what they learn at school exists in a vacuum, and therefore has little chance of being prioritized by them, and they will not engage deeply with it.

But I have taught at many day schools-- Conservative, Modern Orthodox, and transdenominational-- and consistently saw that when there was even moderate observance and learning at home, regardless of background or movement affiliation, and when the kids also went to Jewish summer camp or belonged to some Jewish youth organization (NCSY, BBYO, USY, NFTY), they became easily engagable, and extremely teachable. All I had to do was give them interesting, challenging, and creative lessons based in Jewish text and traditon, and they took off and ran with it.

Likewise, I've done informal teaching for college students, and found exactly the same thing to be true: if their backgrounds included not just Jewish schooling but some kind of active Jewish home and social life, they either had good fundamental skills or acquired them very quickly and with interest.

I could probably count on one hand the number of students-- middle school to college-- that I've run into that had these factors in their lives and were completely disengaged, inordinately lacking in fundamental skills, and without ability to attend and value what they were being taught. They are by far, far and away the exceptions to the rule. Usually if I encounter students with these background factors who have not completely engaged in Jewish education and learning, it's because of poor teaching, which is something comparatively easily remedied.

The ethical and moral training of Judaism is time well spent. Other than this, the time is better spent building fundamental skills, including problem solving.

This statement rests on a very large misapprehension. One cannot separate out ethical and moral teaching from what is so often dismissively referred to as "ritual mitzvot" or "ritual teaching."

Torah is holistic. It is a completely integrated system. The ethical mitzvot function because they are part of a system designed to foster awareness of holiness in everything and everyone, and, when that holiness is recognized, to honor its source in the Creator by responding with justice, compassion, and lovingkindness.

But that awareness is in no small part cultivated by the practice of all the mitzvot, including the "ritual" mitzvot. By davening, by saying brachot not just occasionally but many times each day, by observing Shabbat and holidays, by keeping kosher, by learning Torah, by doing all these other things-- not necessarily according to the standards and interpretations of any one specific school of thought, but in some meaningful, thoughtful, traditionally grounded way-- we are engaging in a spiritual discipline that is designed to constantly be kicking us out of the automatic pilot of daily errands and business we all live in, and getting us to stop and remember who and what we are, and Who made us, and what responsibilities those facts then commit us to.

You wouldn't expect a lifelong couch potato to be able to pitch a perfect baseball game, or score fifty points in a hardcore pickup game of basketball. To do things like that, someone's got to be out there every day, throwing a baseball or shooting hoops, weight training and running and doing all the other things that serious athletes do to discipline their bodies. Why would anyone think their soul worked any differently?

How can you expect someone to recognize the holiness in another human being if they won't even stop to recognize it in the apple they're about to eat? How can you expect them to have the discipline to take their precious time and money and sweat and use it for tzedakah and social justice and the other difficult tools of tikkun olam if they don't even have the discipline not to eat the first ham sandwich that comes by? Keeping the mitzvot-- all the mitzvot-- is a daily discipline that lets you build up spiritually to do bigger, more impactful acts of justice and kindness. And it's a discipline that needs education and encouragement from Day One.

When they are ready, they can get their religious education studying Torah nights and weekends, from the Jewish Study Bible.

I am a big fan of the Jewish Study Bible, and many other such works of scholarship. But what you're describing is not true education, its casual study as a mild avocation.

I would never suggest to someone that they don't really need English classes in school, because they can read on the weekends. This is no different. If you want your child to learn Judaics, you need to have people educate them. Teachers teach, even if their students are bright. No matter how skillful an autodidact your kid might be, this is some of the most complex, most difficult material in the world: they need real assistance, support, and training, if you want them to ever develop any kind of meaningful skill and mastery.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would never suggest to someone that they don't really need English classes in school, because they can read on the weekends.

:clap

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

When they are ready, they can get their religious education studying Torah nights and weekends, from the Jewish Study Bible.

I am a big fan of the Jewish Study Bible, and many other such works of scholarship. But what you're describing is not true education, its casual study as a mild avocation.

I like the JSB, but for Torah study I much prefer the JPS Commentary, Plaut and Etz Hayim supplemented by Alter and Fox.

 

[Avi1001]

I have simply not found this to be true. Many if not most have the abilities, skill potentials, and ability to engage: what they need is teaching that is both high quality and consistent, and just as much, they need context. If there is no Torah study and no meaningful observance in the home, or in their social environment, then what they learn at school exists in a vacuum, and therefore has little chance of being prioritized by them, and they will not engage deeply with it.

I stand corrected, let me re-phrase my thoughts. Students studying science, engineering and medicine generally do not have the bandwidth for in-depth religious studies. This is understandable because these fields are so demanding. There are exceptions, Maimonides was a religious physician. I am sure we need more scientists, engineers and physicians. I am also sure we have too many lawyers. Our society needs to focus on creating new things, not moving around the things that a small number of talented people make, like a sort of shell game.

But I have taught at many day schools-- Conservative, Modern Orthodox, and transdenominational-- and consistently saw that when there was even moderate observance and learning at home, regardless of background or movement affiliation, and when the kids also went to Jewish summer camp or belonged to some Jewish youth organization (NCSY, BBYO, USY, NFTY), they became easily engagable, and extremely teachable. All I had to do was give them interesting, challenging, and creative lessons based in Jewish text and traditon, and they took off and ran with it.

Further, I have doubts that students in these demanding fields should be deeply engaged in religious studies at an early age. Orthodox scholars feel that people should not study Kabbalah until after age 40. Perhaps in-depth Talmud after age 30 and in-depth Torah after age 20.

Likewise, I've done informal teaching for college students, and found exactly the same thing to be true: if their backgrounds included not just Jewish schooling but some kind of active Jewish home and social life, they either had good fundamental skills or acquired them very quickly and with interest.

I am talking about fundamental skills that can help them in life. Can they design an aircraft, bridge, road, water delivery system, solar energy system, nano-device ? The ability to differentiate hermaneutic arguments may not cut it in the real world.

I could probably count on one hand the number of students-- middle school to college-- that I've run into that had these factors in their lives and were completely disengaged, inordinately lacking in fundamental skills, and without ability to attend and value what they were being taught. They are by far, far and away the exceptions to the rule. Usually if I encounter students with these background factors who have not completely engaged in Jewish education and learning, it's because of poor teaching, which is something comparatively easily remedied.

This is true, but I believe we need to re-evaluate our priorities. In addition to the fundamental design competencies that I mentioned, students need to understand the ethical and moral challenges they will face. This is the strength of Torah and Talmud, but few 15 year olds are prepared to engage.

This statement rests on a very large misapprehension. One cannot separate out ethical and moral teaching from what is so often dismissively referred to as "ritual mitzvot" or "ritual teaching."

I respectfully disagree. I have never been convinced that ritual "anything" has substantitive value. At one time ritual included making animal sacrifices at the Temple. Would you have said back then that we need to make animal sacrifices ? I suspect so.

Torah is holistic. It is a completely integrated system. The ethical mitzvot function because they are part of a system designed to foster awareness of holiness in everything and everyone, and, when that holiness is recognized, to honor its source in the Creator by responding with justice, compassion, and lovingkindness.

I agree with everything you said here except your reference to the "Creator". Current evidence suggests the universe was self assembled without the need for any creator to "light the torch" (see Hawkings, The Grand Design).

But that awareness is in no small part cultivated by the practice of all the mitzvot, including the "ritual" mitzvot. By davening, by saying brachot not just occasionally but many times each day, by observing Shabbat and holidays, by keeping kosher, by learning Torah, by doing all these other things-- not necessarily according to the standards and interpretations of any one specific school of thought, but in some meaningful, thoughtful, traditionally grounded way-- we are engaging in a spiritual discipline that is designed to constantly be kicking us out of the automatic pilot of daily errands and business we all live in, and getting us to stop and remember who and what we are, and Who made us, and what responsibilities those facts then commit us to.

Why would davening, saying brachot and keeping Kosher be of any value ? It is just doing what others tell us to do. What are your thoughts about the treif banquet of 1883 ?

Who made us ? It might have simply been a combination of covalent and non-covalent force fields interacting. Unless you understand that, in a very deeply quantitative way, can you convincingly disagree ?

You wouldn't expect a lifelong couch potato to be able to pitch a perfect baseball game, or score fifty points in a hardcore pickup game of basketball. To do things like that, someone's got to be out there every day, throwing a baseball or shooting hoops, weight training and running and doing all the other things that serious athletes do to discipline their bodies. Why would anyone think their soul worked any differently?

I agree we need to work hard. As I said, maybe 10 or 11 hours per day. What we disagree on is what we should be studying and practicing day and night.

How can you expect someone to recognize the holiness in another human being if they won't even stop to recognize it in the apple they're about to eat? How can you expect them to have the discipline to take their precious time and money and sweat and use it for tzedakah and social justice and the other difficult tools of tikkun olam if they don't even have the discipline not to eat the first ham sandwich that comes by? Keeping the mitzvot-- all the mitzvot-- is a daily discipline that lets you build up spiritually to do bigger, more impactful acts of justice and kindness. And it's a discipline that needs education and encouragement from Day One.

Tzedakah, social justice and Tikkum Olam are desirable goals.

However, when our society cannot create the products and services we need to care for our people, because we are not competitive with other countries, or because our banks are too greedy, then we have to understand why, and correct the problems.

Ham sandwiches are high in cholesterol, I avoid them .

I am a big fan of the Jewish Study Bible, and many other such works of scholarship. But what you're describing is not true education, its casual study as a mild avocation.

I am talking about setting logical priorities, and I am referring to our children's education. I would rather have them be able to solve complex problems at a high Bloom's taxonomy level than practice empty ritual.

I would never suggest to someone that they don't really need English classes in school, because they can read on the weekends. This is no different. If you want your child to learn Judaics, you need to have people educate them. Teachers teach, even if their students are bright. No matter how skillful an autodidact your kid might be, this is some of the most complex, most difficult material in the world: they need real assistance, support, and training, if you want them to ever develop any kind of meaningful skill and mastery.

I will be happy if they have a Jewish identity and know how to solve ordinary and partial differential equations .

 

[Levite]

I stand corrected, let me re-phrase my thoughts. Students studying science, engineering and medicine generally do not have the bandwidth for in-depth religious studies. This is understandable because these fields are so demanding. There are exceptions, Maimonides was a religious physician. I am sure we need more scientists, engineers and physicians. I am also sure we have too many lawyers. Our society needs to focus on creating new things, not moving around the things that a small number of talented people make, like a sort of shell game.


Further, I have doubts that students in these demanding fields should be deeply engaged in religious studies at an early age. Orthodox scholars feel that people should not study Kabbalah until after age 40. Perhaps in-depth Talmud after age 30 and in-depth Torah after age 20.


I am talking about fundamental skills that can help them in life. Can they design an aircraft, bridge, road, water delivery system, solar energy system, nano-device ? The ability to differentiate hermaneutic arguments may not cut it in the real world.

This is true, but I believe we need to re-evaluate our priorities. In addition to the fundamental design competencies that I mentioned, students need to understand the ethical and moral challenges they will face. This is the strength of Torah and Talmud, but few 15 year olds are prepared to engage.

I respectfully disagree. I have never been convinced that ritual "anything" has substantitive value. At one time ritual included making animal sacrifices at the Temple. Would you have said back then that we need to make animal sacrifices ? I suspect so.

I agree with everything you said here except your reference to the "Creator". Current evidence suggests the universe was self assembled without the need for any creator to "light the torch" (see Hawkings, The Grand Design).

Why would davening, saying brachot and keeping Kosher be of any value ? It is just doing what others tell us to do. What are your thoughts about the treif banquet of 1883 ?

Who made us ? It might have simply been a combination of covalent and non-covalent force fields interacting. Unless you understand that, in a very deeply quantitative way, can you convincingly disagree ?

I agree we need to work hard. As I said, maybe 10 or 11 hours per day. What we disagree on is what we should be studying and practicing day and night.

Tzedakah, social justice and Tikkum Olam are desirable goals.

However, when our society cannot create the products and services we need to care for our people, because we are not competitive with other countries, or because our banks are too greedy, then we have to understand why, and correct the problems.

Ham sandwiches are high in cholesterol, I avoid them .

I am talking about setting logical priorities, and I am referring to our children's education. I would rather have them be able to solve complex problems at a high Bloom's taxonomy level than practice empty ritual.

I will be happy if they have a Jewish identity and know how to solve ordinary and partial differential equations .

In other words, it sounds like you want them to be completely secularized atheists who recognize that they have Jewish heritage, but don't really know too much about Judaism, and don't have the skills needed to easily learn more about it.

Good luck with that.

 

[Avi1001]

In other words, it sounds like you want them to be completely secularized atheists who recognize that they have Jewish heritage, but don't really know too much about Judaism, and don't have the skills needed to easily learn more about it.

Good luck with that.

, thank you.

I expect that my children will explore the full range of reform options, including Jewish Atheism:

Jewish atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, because they will be well educated, they will have the skills needed to learn about whatever they feel is of importance.

Let me ask a hypothetical. Which is easier, someone educated in Hebrew to learn differential equations or some educated in math to learn Hebrew ?

Are you familiar with Albert Einstein's views about religion ? He was the highest "impact factor" Jew in modern history !

 

[dantech]

, thank you.

I expect that my children will explore the full range of reform options, including Jewish Atheism:

Jewish atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, because they will be well educated, they will have the skills needed to learn about whatever they feel is of importance.

Let me ask a hypothetical. Which is easier, someone educated in Hebrew to learn differential equations or some educated in math to learn Hebrew ?

Why does it have to be either or?

 

[Avi1001]

Why does it have to be either or?

Yes, you are right, it is up to the nature of the child. We should try to help them find where their heart will lead them.

 

[Levite]

However, because they will be well educated, they will have the skills needed to learn about whatever they feel is of importance.

Let me ask a hypothetical. Which is easier, someone educated in Hebrew to learn differential equations or some educated in math to learn Hebrew ?

Are you familiar with Albert Einstein's views about religion ? He was the highest "impact factor" Jew in modern history !

And which is easier, someone who has learned advanced math but never encountered poetry of any kind to comprehend a difficult poem, or someone who has learned a little math, a little literature, a little of many subjects, to learn to comprehend either difficult poems or difficult math problems, depending on what interests them?

How many people become high-impact physicists and mathematicians? Few, compared to total population. How many people have spiritual needs and lack the tools to adequately address those needs? Nearly everyone.

Does everyone need basic math skills? Sure. But unless you know you are one of the few who are absolutely focused from childhood on being a scientist, you can decide when you hit high school or college whether you need to know calculus or advanced math like that.

Einstein was a fluke. Once in a generation. Nobody should raise their children planning on them being the once in a generation exception to all the rules. And in any case, Einstein was the highest "impact factor" Jew to the world at large: who can say who the highest "impact factor" Jew to the Jewish People specifically might have been.

I can tell you, though, I never learned calculus-- I never even got to trigonometry. I failed advanced algebra and almost failed geometry. I have three degrees, and have successfully taught not only Jewish Studies but English, Theater, and History also. My life is, thank God, full of successful friends and relatives with multiple advanced degrees: except for the physicians and scientists, I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the ones who could do differential equations, or any kind of advanced equation.

No one is suggesting that students not be taught math, science, English, history, etc. Of course they should receive all those subjects, and more. And if they express particular interest or capability in one of them, they should be free to pursue deeper study of it. But it is a profound misunderstanding and debasement of Jewish Studies to relegate it to something of secondary value, unrelated to secular studies and without practical value.

The only thing that treating Jewish Studies this way will accomplish is to ensure that the student in question will never develop adequate skills, or learn to truly value and understand their Judaism.

 

[RabbiO]

What are your thoughts about the treif banquet of 1883 ?

At some point I may comment on some of your more substantive comments, but for the moment let me just address the above.

From everything I have read and researched, Isaac Mayer Wise, who continued to observe kashrut throughout his life, ordered the Jewish caterer to serve kosher food at the banquet. While the caterer did, indeed, serve kosher meat, he also prepared and served all the treif items that caused the uproar.

No "smoking gun" has ever been found to explain exactly what happened. Some suspect that some of the more radical elements in the graduating class went behind Wise's back, others suspect that members of the wealthy German American community that was sponsoring the event had the caterer, who was the caterer at the German American Jewish club to which many of them belonged, serve treif in order to force a confrontation.

Most researchers seem to agree that Wise, who was trying to create an all encompassing American Judaism, was too astute and politically savvy to have sabotaged his grand vision in this way and was truly taken by surprise by what was served at the banquet.

So what is your point?

Peter

 

[Avi1001]

And which is easier, someone who has learned advanced math but never encountered poetry of any kind to comprehend a difficult poem, or someone who has learned a little math, a little literature, a little of many subjects, to learn to comprehend either difficult poems or difficult math problems, depending on what interests them?

Math, science and engineering education is different than a liberal education. There is a danger in becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none. Specialization is critical.

How many people become high-impact physicists and mathematicians? Few, compared to total population. How many people have spiritual needs and lack the tools to adequately address those needs? Nearly everyone.

You are right, very few have the ability to become high impact physicists and mathematicians. That is why it is a benefit to society to identify them when they are young. I agree spiritual needs are very important as well.

Does everyone need basic math skills? Sure. But unless you know you are one of the few who are absolutely focused from childhood on being a scientist, you can decide when you hit high school or college whether you need to know calculus or advanced math like that.

I respectfully disagree. This is why we are no longer competitive in the world market. This is why China's economy is growing at 7.5% per year and our is growing at 1.8%. We are at risk of a double dip recession. Many more people need to understand calculus and advanced math. I hope people are starting to recognize this.

Einstein was a fluke. Once in a generation. Nobody should raise their children planning on them being the once in a generation exception to all the rules. And in any case, Einstein was the highest "impact factor" Jew to the world at large: who can say who the highest "impact factor" Jew to the Jewish People specifically might have been.

Einstein surely was a fluke. As were the other 192 Jewish Nobel Laureats. If we don't raise our children to believe they can be excellent, surely they won't be.

I can tell you, though, I never learned calculus-- I never even got to trigonometry. I failed advanced algebra and almost failed geometry. I have three degrees, and have successfully taught not only Jewish Studies but English, Theater, and History also. My life is, thank God, full of successful friends and relatives with multiple advanced degrees: except for the physicians and scientists, I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the ones who could do differential equations, or any kind of advanced equation.

Unfortunately, your story is a common one. Many highly intelligent people have been turned off by math and science at an early age. Often by one bad teacher. This is a serious problem in our educational system.

I am not sure I understand your point about the physicians and scientists. Are you saying most scientists can't do differential equations ? Did you know there is a movement in biology, called systems biology, to create a more quantitative approaches in biology, because this is a perceived weakness. All scientific fields move toward higher levels of quantification and rigor. Differential equations are an almost certain outcome. They express relationships between rates of change.

No one is suggesting that students not be taught math, science, English, history, etc. Of course they should receive all those subjects, and more. And if they express particular interest or capability in one of them, they should be free to pursue deeper study of it. But it is a profound misunderstanding and debasement of Jewish Studies to relegate it to something of secondary value, unrelated to secular studies and without practical value.

I have repeatedly stated that I consider Jewish ethics and morality to be of significant importance. I consider this to be a major aspect of reform Judaism, which I agree with.

The only thing that treating Jewish Studies this way will accomplish is to ensure that the student in question will never develop adequate skills, or learn to truly value and understand their Judaism.

I believe that someone who applies critical thinking skills to studying Judaism nights and weekends, with a sincere interest, will achieve deeper understanding than one who is placed in a program at an early age, because their parents want them there.

Did you know that when asked how American's rate internationally in our math and science skills Americans said in the top 5 ? We actually rate in the top 30. We really don't have a choice, if we are to compete internationally, we have to raise our math and science standards.

You know Levite, you are not too old to learn calculus, you see, you and Rabbio are teaching me some religion ! (in my nights and weekends, by the way)

 

[Avi1001]

At some point I may comment on some of your more substantive comments, but for the moment let me just address the above.

From everything I have read and researched, Isaac Mayer Wise, who continued to observe kashrut throughout his life, ordered the Jewish caterer to serve kosher food at the banquet. While the caterer did, indeed, serve kosher meat, he also prepared and served all the treif items that caused the uproar.

No "smoking gun" has ever been found to explain exactly what happened. Some suspect that some of the more radical elements in the graduating class went behind Wise's back, others suspect that members of the wealthy German American community that was sponsoring the event had the caterer, who was the caterer at the German American Jewish club to which many of them belonged, serve treif in order to force a confrontation.

Most researchers seem to agree that Wise, who was trying to create an all encompassing American Judaism, was too astute and politically savvy to have sabotaged his grand vision in this way and was truly taken by surprise by what was served at the banquet.

So what is your point?

Peter

Hi Rabbio, thanks for the review of the treif banquet, that is how I remembered it, that shrimp was served at one of Rabbi Wise banquets.

I was responding to this:

How can you expect them to have the discipline to take their precious time and money and sweat and use it for tzedakah and social justice and the other difficult tools of tikkun olam if they don't even have the discipline not to eat the first ham sandwich that comes by?

I think the discipline of Tzedakah, social justice and Tikkum Olam cannot reasonably be compared to a lack of discipline for eating a ham sandwich.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are you familiar with Albert Einstein's views about religion ? He was the highest "impact factor" Jew in modern history !

Really? Have you considered the possibility that this view reflects a bias rather than validates it?

By what standard do you insist that Einstein had a greater impact than, e.g., Herzl or Salk or, for that matter, the Lubavitcher Rebbe or Buber or Heschel or Kaplan or ... ? How do you measure impact? How should a Jew committed to social justice measure impact?

 

[Avi1001]

Really? Have you considered the possibility that this view reflects a bias rather than validates it?

By what standard do you insist that Einstein had a greater impact than, e.g., Herzl or Salk or, for that matter, the Lubavitcher Rebbe or Buber or Heschel or Kaplan or ... ? How do you measure impact? How should a Jew committed to social justice measure impact?

We all have biases based on past experiences. I used the term 'impact factor', it has a precise meaning.

Also, the OP is about student education being religious vs. secular, that is what my comments were directed toward.

Salk had a deep understanding of scientific method. He did post-graduate work in virology.

The others you mention had unique skills, but could only have benefited from a strong quantitative education.

 

[Boyd]

I don't have children myself, but have been an educator for a number of decades. I see myself agreeing with Levite and Jayhawker Soule on this issue.

Growing up, I was not raised in an environment that fostered my Jewish heritage. I grew up in an evangelical Christian church. I'm sure some of you can figure out how that went. One thing that I do give credit to them for is the amount of importance they placed on religious education. I was well informed, and I believe such an importance should be placed in Jewish households and education systems as well.

Personally, I think religion in general is not taken seriously enough. I was lucky that I had a grandfather who was well educated (as he had started towards the path of being a rabbi when he was younger) to help guide me. If it wasn't for him, I believe I never would have been able to embrace my heritage as much. Looking at many of the individuals that I have taught, most have had very little knowledge about their history or Judaism. Yet at the same time, if you were to ask them about pop culture, they have a large knowledge on the subject. There is a problem there.

Ones religious identity, in my opinion is much more important than learning about advanced mathematics. Ones religious identity helps inform that individual about who they are, as well as give them a tradition that they can explore as a means to deal with life's difficult questions.

 

[Levite]

Math, science and engineering education is different than a liberal education. There is a danger in becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none. Specialization is critical.... I respectfully disagree. This is why we are no longer competitive in the world market. This is why China's economy is growing at 7.5% per year and our is growing at 1.8%. We are at risk of a double dip recession. Many more people need to understand calculus and advanced math. I hope people are starting to recognize this.

This is a profoundly utilitarian argument, and like any utilitarian argument, it is deeply flawed.

Nobody is disagreeing that the US could and should dramatically improve education, but Liberal Arts education is just as important as mathematics and science. The world is not a utilitarian paradise: society as a whole and people as individuals are moved by many things other than the practical skills of pragmatic trades and academic specialties.

Think about Einstein, as you seem to love to do: when he sought to distract himself from troubles in his life or unsolved problems in his work, he didn't comfort himself with the balm of complex equations. He played the violin. Should we criticize the time he spent in youth learning the violin as having taken away from his precious time reading math texts?

It is disingenous to the point of irresponsibility to scorn a well-rounded Liberal Arts education as making "Jack of all trades, master of none." A broad-ranging Liberal Arts education strengthens a person's curiosity, their flexibility of mind, their ability to master diverse skills and concepts, and most importantly, cultivates their ability to think critically and creatively. This article, a few months ago, made note of the diminishment of the once-valued Humanities education in America, and how we are trying to compensate for our diminishment in science and math at the expense of everything else.

Einstein surely was a fluke. As were the other 192 Jewish Nobel Laureats. If we don't raise our children to believe they can be excellent, surely they won't be.

Excellence does not equal high-level math ability, or high-level scientific achievement. Just ask the 13 Jewish Nobel Laureates in Literature, or the 10 Jewish Nobel Laureates in Peace. Or the hundred upon hundreds of Jews who have achieved global renown and excellence in film, theater, dance, music, literature, journalism, politics, business, philosophy, social justice work, or any of a dozen other fields that are not purely scientific or mathematical.

Unfortunately, your story is a common one. Many highly intelligent people have been turned off by math and science at an early age. Often by one bad teacher. This is a serious problem in our educational system.

Actually, I had many very good math teachers. I am simply disinterested in math, and not particularly skillful at it. I respect it very much, and appreciate it for what it is, I simply am not interested in doing it. But actually, I did well in science.

The point really is, you say this as though, had I, or others, not had some unfortunate encounter with bad math or science teachers, we would have become scientists or mathematicians, instead of throwing away our intelligence on religion, philosophy, literature, the arts, or whatnot. This kind of functionalist pragmatism is not only shortsighted in failing to recognize the social value and intellectual complexity of Human Arts, but insulting to the many fine minds who enrich, challenge, and beautify human society with their Humanities-based contributions.

I am not sure I understand your point about the physicians and scientists. Are you saying most scientists can't do differential equations?

No, I am saying only the scientists were the ones who could do differential equations. And not only were all the others unable, none cared, and not a single person's success or happiness was diminished because of this inability.

I have repeatedly stated that I consider Jewish ethics and morality to be of significant importance. I consider this to be a major aspect of reform Judaism, which I agree with.

And I have and will repeatedly state that Jewish ethics and morality does not exist within a vacuum. You cannot strip away the cultural, ritual, and spiritual aspects of Judaism and expect there to be anything approaching a sustainable philosophical framework left.

I believe that someone who applies critical thinking skills to studying Judaism nights and weekends, with a sincere interest, will achieve deeper understanding than one who is placed in a program at an early age, because their parents want them there.

I believe I have been quite clear that mere presence in the Jewish Studies program or classroom is not usually sufficient in and of itself: it almost always also requires a home life enriched with Torah study and observance of some level or another, and participation in Jewish social activities as well.

But I have taught enough adults to say with pretty complete surety that those who never had Jewish education as children, but as adults desultorily read Jewish texts in translation on weekends, never develop anything close to the text skills, facility with Hebrew language (and Aramaic, Yiddish, Ladino, or other Jewish languages), familiarity with traditional liturgy and observances, and knowledge of the range of traditional texts as those who did have Jewish education as children.

In fact, almost entirely consistently, nearly every gifted and engaged adult I've taught who never got Jewish education as a child has said to me, at one point or another, how much they wish they had had Jewish education, and how much they regret their parents not giving that to them.

Did you know that when asked how American's rate internationally in our math and science skills Americans said in the top 5 ? We actually rate in the top 30. We really don't have a choice, if we are to compete internationally, we have to raise our math and science standards.

That may be the case, but we also need to raise our Humanities standards, and even if we raise both, not everyone is either cut out for or necessarily interested in both; and what's more, people still have needs that must be met, the tools for which do not come either from a math class or from a Humanities class.

You know Levite, you are not too old to learn calculus

I have no interest in calculus. It is not relevant to anything in my life. I am not a mathematician or scientist.