Jews: Why do they not accept Jesus as Messiah

[Brickjectivity]

The Short answer is that Jesus probably wasn't the Messiah.

It's very possible that Jesus was a great thinker, probably in the same league as say Plato, Socrates or Maimonedes, but that alone did not make him the Messiah as he did not fulfill A SINGLE ONE of the Old-Testament prophecies.

Actually Jesus could be the messiah if he manages to complete his work. A believer believes that it is already completed in the future, and it is just not visible yet. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for." (Hebrews 11:1)

 

[Semitone-Truce]

The Short answer is that Jesus probably wasn't the Messiah.

It's very possible that Jesus was a great thinker, probably in the same league as say Plato, Socrates or Maimonedes, but that alone did not make him the Messiah as he did not fulfill A SINGLE ONE of the Old-Testament prophecies.

A Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus Christ (Christos being the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messiah) is the Messiah. Now I've seen everything.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It's very possible that Jesus was a great thinker, probably in the same league as say Plato, Socrates or Maimonedes, but that alone did not make him the Messiah as he did not fulfill A SINGLE ONE of the Old-Testament prophecies.

Or he fulfilled them all. Either way, I don't see what it matters.

 

[Tarheeler]

Or he fulfilled them all. Either way, I don't see what it matters.

Because whether or not he did is central to the topic of the thread, which is why Jews do not accept him as the messiah.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Because whether or not he did is central to the topic of the thread, which is why Jews do not accept him as the messiah.

OK. I admit it's central to the topic of the thread. I guess I just don't think it matters, or should matter, in real life. I reject the idea that we must believe in magic in order to be religious. In fact, I hold that the best religious minds are those which reject magic in their theology.

But the whole prophesized-messiah business, if taken literally or physically, seems to me like belief in magic. I can't imagine that God would whisper knowledge of the future into one chosen man's ear, have him write it down, and then want the rest of humanity to stand around waiting and watching for those future events to happen.

Just my view of it, of course.

 

[Levite]

What are your thoughts about the notion of the "Professional Rabbi", that is the full time, paid, Rabbi / teacher ?

In some ways, I think the Rabbi / tradesman can relate better to the folks. But on the other hand, a leader, in some ways must be different from the folks.

Do you think it would be better if Rabbis were volunteer community leaders and teachers, thus requiring that they have a separate, successful vocation ?

I think it would be good to have this situation again.

To me it really feels weird when i think about the weird personality cult of some Rabbis.

These are great posts, and worth responding to thoughtfully, but I don't want to threadjack. Maybe if someone wants to start another thread, either in the Judaism DIR or in the Same Faiths Debate section, we could get into this more...?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

These are great posts, and worth responding to thoughtfully, but I don't want to threadjack. Maybe if someone wants to start another thread, either in the Judaism DIR or in the Same Faiths Debate section, we could get into this more...?

So most people who were Rabbi's also had other professions?

 

[Levite]

So most people who were Rabbi's also had other professions?

Yeah.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Yeah.

That's interesting because the NT always made it seem that the teachers of the law had nothing else to do but just that.

I'm trying to think of the story of Jesus and the temple and there's a question formualting in my head but it's not quite there yet. I'll ask you when I can actually put it into words lol.

 

[Shermana]

Actually Jesus could be the messiah if he manages to complete his work. A believer believes that it is already completed in the future, and it is just not visible yet. "Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for." (Hebrews 11:1)

There's also the question of whether it's "his work" or if its a consequence of his existence. What exactly is "his work" and what is Heaven's work as a compliment to the age he ushers in is debatable.

 

[Shermana]

I don't know that it isn't. Presuming that Sleeppy is looking at Ezekiel as a prophet whose words are inviolate and Ezekiel 34 as a block of text that is a package speaking about a single linear line of events, then it doesn't depend upon an interpretation of whether its about David or his dynasty since the verse 34:28 says "they will live in safety and no one will make them afraid." That is not the case nor has it been since before Ezekiel was born. Every bit of history about them is about them being oppressed or pillaged and always struggling. The brief period in which they had a king (following the Persian and Seleucid empires), was the tumultuous Maccabees period.

I don't remember hearing of any major difficulties in between Nehemiah's building of the wall and the rise of the Maccabees during the Selucid period of Antiochus, which it could very well be referring to. A son of David at this time doesn't have to be formalized as a king, it can be an exilarch.

 

[metis]

A Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus Christ (Christos being the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Messiah) is the Messiah. Now I've seen everything.

A Christian theologian and author, Dr. James Lyons, also taught much the same. However, he believes Jesus will eventually fulfill all the messianic predictions when he returns, but until then he says he cannot be declared to be the messiah. I took a three day seminar with him around 15 years ago.

 

[Shermana]

The Short answer is that Jesus probably wasn't the Messiah.

It's very possible that Jesus was a great thinker, probably in the same league as say Plato, Socrates or Maimonedes, but that alone did not make him the Messiah as he did not fulfill A SINGLE ONE of the Old-Testament prophecies.

Again, it would be great if we knew for a fact what all the Old Testament prophecies were in the first place, and what exactly they meant, whether they were overnight sensations or a series of an age being brought out, and whether certain verses lauded as "Messianic Prophecy" actually was such, and whether we have all the relevant Messianic Prophecies that people went by at the time actually recorded in the current Tanakh.

 

[Levite]

That's interesting because the NT always made it seem that the teachers of the law had nothing else to do but just that.

I'm trying to think of the story of Jesus and the temple and there's a question formualting in my head but it's not quite there yet. I'll ask you when I can actually put it into words lol.

There were a few who were independently wealthy, and so could essentially teach Torah and judge full time. But they were very rare. Basically, even the Rabbis who were doing pretty well for themselves made their living doing something besides teaching Torah and being halachic judges, although if one was a noted judge it could be a lucrative sideline, maybe even a living, though probably a relatively meager one on its own.

It's generally not a good idea to rely on the NT for accuracy in depicting the Perushim (Pharisees) or their students. Or some other things about Jewish life and observance in those days, either....

 

[Tarheeler]

I told a co-worker about this thread at lunch, which naturally lead to us discussion the same topic. When I laid out the prophecies that Jews expect the messiah to fulfill, he blurted out "That sounds like Satan!"

Being that he's a Southern Baptist, I certainly don't hold his opinion to be a universal Christian belief, but I do think it illustrates a point I've made (or at least have tried to) before: The Christian and Jewish ideas of the messiah have changed significantly enough from each other that we are not talking about the same thing. Jesus might very satisfy the Christian requirements for the messiah, and be called such. But he does not satisfy the Jewish requirements, and he is not the Jewish messiah.

 

[Levite]

I told a co-worker about this thread at lunch, which naturally lead to us discussion the same topic. When I laid out the prophecies that Jews expect the messiah to fulfill, he blurted out "That sounds like Satan!"

Being that he's a Southern Baptist, I certainly don't hold his opinion to be a universal Christian belief, but I do think it illustrates a point I've made (or at least have tried to) before: The Christian and Jewish ideas of the messiah have changed significantly enough from each other that we are not talking about the same thing. Jesus might very satisfy the Christian requirements for the messiah, and be called such. But he does not satisfy the Jewish requirements, and he is not the Jewish messiah.

Maybe I understand Christianity even less than I thought I did: I can get how our messiah prophecies don't match up to theirs, but how in the world does our messiah sound like a fallen angel who rebelled against God and now rules in Hell?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I didn't get it either ...

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't remember hearing of any major difficulties in between Nehemiah's building of the wall and the rise of the Maccabees during the Selucid period of Antiochus, which it could very well be referring to. A son of David at this time doesn't have to be formalized as a king, it can be an exilarch.

What was spoken was in response to Sleeppy, so it was about Sleeppy's view of messianic prophecy. In his/her view the prophecy was fulfilled majestically and divinely, one time only. Your view is that NT scriptures could have been altered later, and maybe even that this prophecy was written after the fact by Ezra rather than beforehand, and that would be okay with you. That is incompatible with the view Sleeppy has put forward where prophecies are divine predictions of specific events that are fulfilled and on a schedule. Besides that verse 28 also says "They will no longer be plundered by the nations," so I don't see why it matters if there was a bit of peace which was being purchased through taxes paid to the Seleucids. Its no kind of fulfillment of a specific prediction of peace, safety, no plundering by the nations.

 

[Tarheeler]

Maybe I understand Christianity even less than I thought I did: I can get how our messiah prophecies don't match up to theirs, but how in the world does our messiah sound like a fallen angel who rebelled against God and now rules in Hell?

It has to do with how they believe the Antichrist (seen by some as Satan) will seem like the messiah before being defeated by Jesus.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Maybe I understand Christianity even less than I thought I did: I can get how our messiah prophecies don't match up to theirs, but how in the world does our messiah sound like a fallen angel who rebelled against God and now rules in Hell?

May I respond to that? Your messiah is sometimes styled as a miraculous leader who will do lots of good works. In the 1980's Hal Lindsey wrote a book for Christians called The Late Great Planet Earth which represents that the being 'Satan' will come to earth or will have a representative on Earth who will attempt to dupe all Jews into following them. Hal Lindsey did not originate this idea, but he had a huge following among many of the newer modern churches, and his ideas took hold (in my own childhood church for one). Many other writers, some whom you may have heard of, have helped to promote his books and others like them. The idea of Antichrist appearing as if he were the Jewish messiah is an idea that has been strong in churches that are charismatic, have healing services and expel demons etc. It hit its largest stride in the late 1980's here in the USA. Some big names who've written along similar lines include Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, the people who make Chic tracts. The New York Times once said that The Late Great Planet Earth was the number one non-fiction best seller of its decade.