Jews: Why do they not accept Jesus as Messiah

[Shermana]

What was spoken was in response to Sleeppy, so it was about Sleeppy's view of messianic prophecy. In his/her view the prophecy was fulfilled majestically and divinely, one time only. Your view is that NT scriptures could have been altered later, and maybe even that this prophecy was written after the fact by Ezra rather than beforehand, and that would be okay with you. That is incompatible with the view Sleeppy has put forward where prophecies are divine predictions of specific events that are fulfilled and on a schedule. Besides that verse 28 also says "They will no longer be plundered by the nations," so I don't see why it matters if there was a bit of peace which was being purchased through taxes paid to the Seleucids. Its no kind of fulfillment of a specific prediction of peace, safety, no plundering by the nations.

It doesn't necessarily mean "No longer ever again" but could be referring to a finite time period. And I do believe there was no plundering during that 300+ year time span.

Do you deny that Ezekiel 36 is talking about the return of the Israelites from exile? Clearly Edom doesn't exist anymore, so it can't be referring to modern times now can it.

 

[Levite]

May I respond to that? Your messiah is sometimes styled as a miraculous leader who will do lots of good works. In the 1980's Hal Lindsey wrote a book for Christians called The Late Great Planet Earth which represents that the being 'Satan' will come to earth or will have a representative on Earth who will attempt to dupe all Jews into following them. Hal Lindsey did not originate this idea, but he had a huge following among many of the newer modern churches, and his ideas took hold (in my own childhood church for one). Many other writers, some whom you may have heard of, have helped to promote his books and others like them. The idea of Antichrist appearing as if he were the Jewish messiah is an idea that has been strong in churches that are charismatic, have healing services and expel demons etc. It hit its largest stride in the late 1980's here in the USA. Some big names who've written along similar lines include Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, the people who make Chic tracts. The New York Times once said that The Late Great Planet Earth was the number one non-fiction best seller of its decade.

So...the devil will trick the Jews by sending a great leader to help bring about world peace, end poverty and hunger, foster religious tolerance, encourage devotion to God, and cultivate compassion, empathy, and spiritual awareness in all peoples...?

Wow...what...fiendish duplicity and fearsome evil....

 

[Brickjectivity]

It doesn't necessarily mean "No longer ever again" but could be referring to a finite time period. And I do believe there was no plundering during that 300+ year time span.

Do you deny that Ezekiel 36 is talking about the return of the Israelites from exile? Clearly Edom doesn't exist anymore, so it can't be referring to modern times now can it.

I'm walking lightly, because an acquaintance once called me out on the fact that I've never formally studied Ezekiel in the traditional way. Its true that I don't understand it, and I picked chapter 34 at random off the top of my head to call Sleeppy's bluff. Now then you are asking me if I have an opinion on 36? Not an educated one. I think though that we are getting way beyond 'Christianity' now, and I'm getting a little bit uncomfortable.

What I think is that Ezekiel, despite appearances, is not about a specific time only but also is about each time Israel comes round the bend and it is singing the 'Song of Moses' mentioned in Deuteronomy 31:21. Every time the country is invaded or the people are exiled or oppressed, taxed, pillaged looted, squeezed or whatever, they are supposed to sing this song. The prophecy of Ezekiel seems to me then like it is not only for one specific time of trouble but for any. In that case its prediction of 'Safety' is one that can be fulfilled multiple times, as many times as are necessary followed by problems until some sort of end product is produced -- some finished version of Israel.

I know that for Christians this is mirrored in Revelation 15:3 "and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations."

 

[Sleeppy]

Brick,

I don't limit prophecy to one time. Many and most prophecies come by logical, somewhat scientific, observations. In certain cases, accurate and enhanced observations are available. All by varying and similar methodology.

The intent of prophecy is very clearly to teach, and to teach about something that, in many cases, is constantly relevant. Also, much of Scripture is veiled in the ignorance it teaches against.

Proverbs 25:2 The honour of God is to hide a thing, And the honour of kings to search out a matter.

Language is a limited means of communication.

 

[kjw47]

I told a co-worker about this thread at lunch, which naturally lead to us discussion the same topic. When I laid out the prophecies that Jews expect the messiah to fulfill, he blurted out "That sounds like Satan!"

Being that he's a Southern Baptist, I certainly don't hold his opinion to be a universal Christian belief, but I do think it illustrates a point I've made (or at least have tried to) before: The Christian and Jewish ideas of the messiah have changed significantly enough from each other that we are not talking about the same thing. Jesus might very satisfy the Christian requirements for the messiah, and be called such. But he does not satisfy the Jewish requirements, and he is not the Jewish messiah.

Its obvious when Jesus walked the earth--even though considered Gods chosen( Israelites) at that point-- satan had gotten many errors in. Jesus pointed out the errors to the Israelite teachers--they rejected truth--they rejected Jesus--God rejected them forever.
The Israelite teachers were expecting the Messiah when Jesus popped up-- they had the misconception that a great powerful king was coming to defeat the romans there and then--one of their biggest downfalls was they placed themselves upon a pedastel--they called the regular Jewish followers--Amharets--means like giving scraps to the dogs( spiritual scraps)---along comes a carpenters son- He tells them they are wrong on many points--their hearts turned to hatred. Hatred easily blinds one to truth. So I guess the major problem was within the hearts of the Israelite teachers. Jesus told them--they were sons of vipers. All through the history of the ot--satan got in to the Israelite religion and twisted it away from God. over and over they fell away from Gods grace. This is realitys pattern--but today 99% of all religions think they are immune to satan getting in and turning them from God. They must think they are wiser than Solomon who fell to false god worship in the end. This whole world needs to take a step back and look.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Its obvious when Jesus walked the earth--even though considered Gods chosen( Israelites) at that point-- satan had gotten many errors in. Jesus pointed out the errors to the Israelite teachers--they rejected truth--they rejected Jesus--God rejected them forever.
The Israelite teachers were expecting the Messiah when Jesus popped up-- they had the misconception that a great powerful king was coming to defeat the romans there and then--one of their biggest downfalls was they placed themselves upon a pedastel--they called the regular Jewish followers--Amharets--means like giving scraps to the dogs( spiritual scraps)---along comes a carpenters son- He tells them they are wrong on many points--their hearts turned to hatred. Hatred easily blinds one to truth. So I guess the major problem was within the hearts of the Israelite teachers. Jesus told them--they were sons of vipers. All through the history of the ot--satan got in to the Israelite religion and twisted it away from God. over and over they fell away from Gods grace. This is realitys pattern--but today 99% of all religions think they are immune to satan getting in and turning them from God. They must think they are wiser than Solomon who fell to false god worship in the end. This whole world needs to take a step back and look.

Pretty sure that God says that The Covenant is ever lasting.

I would provide articles on recent historical and archealogical findings that would shed insight into what the ancient israelites believed and how they worshipped as well as the rise of Judaism...I've even provided you with how the word Satan has changed from Judaism and Christianity.

But are you sure you are worshipping the same God?

 

[Tarheeler]

Its obvious when Jesus walked the earth--even though considered Gods chosen( Israelites) at that point-- satan had gotten many errors in. Jesus pointed out the errors to the Israelite teachers--they rejected truth--they rejected Jesus--God rejected them forever.
The Israelite teachers were expecting the Messiah when Jesus popped up-- they had the misconception that a great powerful king was coming to defeat the romans there and then--one of their biggest downfalls was they placed themselves upon a pedastel--they called the regular Jewish followers--Amharets--means like giving scraps to the dogs( spiritual scraps)---along comes a carpenters son- He tells them they are wrong on many points--their hearts turned to hatred. Hatred easily blinds one to truth. So I guess the major problem was within the hearts of the Israelite teachers. Jesus told them--they were sons of vipers. All through the history of the ot--satan got in to the Israelite religion and twisted it away from God. over and over they fell away from Gods grace. This is realitys pattern--but today 99% of all religions think they are immune to satan getting in and turning them from God. They must think they are wiser than Solomon who fell to false god worship in the end. This whole world needs to take a step back and look.

Thank you for illustrating my point probably far better than I ever could.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thank you for illustrating my point probably far better than I ever could.

Yep ...

It is obvious that Jesus walked the earth and that Jews ore sons of vipers.​

... history and theology at its best.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Its obvious when Jesus walked the earth--even though considered Gods chosen( Israelites) at that point-- satan had gotten many errors in. Jesus pointed out the errors to the Israelite teachers--they rejected truth--they rejected Jesus--God rejected them forever.
The Israelite teachers were expecting the Messiah when Jesus popped up-- they had the misconception that a great powerful king was coming to defeat the romans there and then--one of their biggest downfalls was they placed themselves upon a pedastel--they called the regular Jewish followers--Amharets--means like giving scraps to the dogs( spiritual scraps)---along comes a carpenters son- He tells them they are wrong on many points--their hearts turned to hatred. Hatred easily blinds one to truth. So I guess the major problem was within the hearts of the Israelite teachers. Jesus told them--they were sons of vipers. All through the history of the ot--satan got in to the Israelite religion and twisted it away from God. over and over they fell away from Gods grace. This is realitys pattern--but today 99% of all religions think they are immune to satan getting in and turning them from God. They must think they are wiser than Solomon who fell to false god worship in the end. This whole world needs to take a step back and look.

Congratulations on your 666th post.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Congratulations on your 666th post.

:fork:

:run:

 

[kjw47]

Pretty sure that God says that The Covenant is ever lasting.

I would provide articles on recent historical and archealogical findings that would shed insight into what the ancient israelites believed and how they worshipped as well as the rise of Judaism...I've even provided you with how the word Satan has changed from Judaism and Christianity.

But are you sure you are worshipping the same God?

It could have been everlasting--but they rejected truth--they rejected the Messiah. There house was cut off to them forever-Matt 23:37-38)-- the references to Israel after that--is speaking about spiritual Israel-meaning Gods chosen. The writers had no clue what the new religion would be called in the last days.
Yes the God of Abraham, Noah, Moses, David, Daniel, etc--all served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Brick,

I don't limit prophecy to one time. Many and most prophecies come by logical, somewhat scientific, observations. In certain cases, accurate and enhanced observations are available. All by varying and similar methodology.

The intent of prophecy is very clearly to teach, and to teach about something that, in many cases, is constantly relevant. Also, much of Scripture is veiled in the ignorance it teaches against.

Proverbs 25:2 The honour of God is to hide a thing, And the honour of kings to search out a matter.

Language is a limited means of communication.

Yes, prophecy is to teach and to alarm people about the mistakes they are making. People tend to be insensitive.


I'd enjoy discussing proverbs 25 in context. In paraphrase "It is the glory of the 'Elohim' (powerful-court-ministers) to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to discover it, but the heart of the king is unsearchable. (unstable/unreliable/dangerous)." verses 4-11 "So then your goal should be to eliminate wicked ministers from around the king (by court cases), as if you were removing dross from silver. Don't use yourself as a witness but let the king decide for himself, as he surely will when he sees that his ministers were corrupt. Don't bring anyone to court without a solid case against them, but when you get a solid ruling it will be very good for you."....and it continues giving solid advice on how a wise person should behave when their country is taken over by one king or another. The first thing to do is to identify evil ministers, then expose their evil. Otherwise they will manipulate the king. Think about our president Bush(II) and how he was controlled by Cheney. Cheney concealed matters from him in order to control him. Cronies are always kissing up to leaders, clouding their judgment. A wise person helps to keep them away from the leader. Its solid advice.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

It could have been everlasting--but they rejected truth--they rejected the Messiah. There house was cut off to them forever-Matt 23:37-38)-- the references to Israel after that--is speaking about spiritual Israel-meaning Gods chosen. The writers had no clue what the new religion would be called in the last days.
Yes the God of Abraham, Noah, Moses, David, Daniel, etc--all served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God.

I will ask you several questions, one I will ask because I want to and I don't think you will answer or you will answer in a manner that avoids answering and the others you can answer on your leisure.

1. Can you prove the existence of Abraham, Noah, Moses, Daniel and David? Particularly Abraham and Noah.

2. How do you know that Matthew was not improperly reporting on what was said in the OT. Do you think that the prophets would agree with Matthew as the context they use obviously speaks of Israel?

3. Considering that the Kingdom of David had been split into a Northern and Southern Kingdom, why would you assume that the Israel being spoken of is not the unificiation of that kingdom? The one that God had told David he would forever keep due to his love of him? God mentions that the throne of David will endure forever, was this a spiritual throne.

4. If your wife/husband were to be unfaithful to you, would you in turn be unfaithful to them?

5. Do you consider all history to be false? Or only the ones that do not align with your beliefs? What do you make of the Kennite Hypothesis?

6. Do you believe that cultures are isolated and have no influence on how they practice and worship?

7. Do all Christians share your beliefs?

8. Can a divided Kingdom stand?

 

[Caladan]

To make the question more constructive, what we really should be asking is: Why did the Jews (of the first century CE) did not accept Jesus as the Messiah.
It seems that mainstream Jewish society was not carried by a wave of messianism as Jesus roamed ancient Galilee and Judea. Although the NT does raise an interesting point that Jesus did enjoy a certain amount of popularity and his herald, John the baptist was extremely popular with the Jews both by the gospels account and by Josephus' account.

So here is the meat of the question. It seems that there were many miracle makers, healers, and teachers wandering the region at the time. And since a historical Jesus is hard to trace outside the New Testament, it's possible to project from that fact that either the common Jews and Jesus himself did not consider his actions and sermons as part of a messianic mission, and certainly not as a path to apotheosis, or collective worship of a fellow Jew as God incarnate, as the Roman tradition concerning their emperors. It's easy to further project on such perspectives since the dogma around Jesus as messiah, and as God was edited on paper after his death (and canonized much later), and the popular acceptance of such hearsay came about among a non Jewish population who did not have contemporary experience with Jesus, and certainly not a deep understanding of Hebrew Scriptures (or Judaism, the origin of the Christian sect) as the Jews did.

The bottom line is, that mainstream Jews, people who know their scriptures, who share Jesus' norms and heritage, who experienced the social and political circumstances of his time did not come about to worship Jesus, or address him as a Messiah. Although it's possible that many of them respected him as one of the inspiring rebbes (or teachers) of his time. After all, what we have left is the edited and cut version which was put on paper, and in which Jesus has become a 'Son of God' a God, and a Messiah.
I think that any Christian who dismisses the entire body of Jewish society for not being carried away by an ecstatic wave of messianism during the first centuries, is only doing it in order to reaffirm their faith in Christian tradition and has never took the time to address the body of scholarship concerning these periods nor to honestly examine theology.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is also worth remembering that you are dealing with apologetics, developed decades after the even, and directed to gentiles and marginalized Jews in the diaspora.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

To make the question more constructive, what we really should be asking is: Why did the Jews (of the first century CE) did not accept Jesus as the Messiah.
It seems that mainstream Jewish society was not carried by a wave of messianism as Jesus roamed ancient Galilee and Judea. Although the NT does raise an interesting point that Jesus did enjoy a certain amount of popularity and his herald, John the baptist was extremely popular with the Jews both by the gospels account and by Josephus' account.

So here is the meat of the question. It seems that there were many miracle makers, healers, and teachers wandering the region at the time. And since a historical Jesus is hard to trace outside the New Testament, it's possible to project from that fact that either the common Jews and Jesus himself did not consider his actions and sermons as part of a messianic mission, and certainly not as a path to apotheosis, or collective worship of a fellow Jew as God incarnate, as the Roman tradition concerning their emperors. It's easy to further project on such perspectives since the dogma around Jesus as messiah, and as God was edited on paper after his death (and canonized much later), and the popular acceptance of such hearsay came about among a non Jewish population who did not have contemporary experience with Jesus, and certainly not a deep understanding of Hebrew Scriptures (or Judaism, the origin of the Christian sect) as the Jews did.

The bottom line is, that mainstream Jews, people who know their scriptures, who share Jesus' norms and heritage, who experienced the social and political circumstances of his time did not come about to worship Jesus, or address him as a Messiah. Although it's possible that many of them respected him as one of the inspiring rebbes (or teachers) of his time. After all, what we have left is the edited and cut version which was put on paper, and in which Jesus has become a 'Son of God' a God, and a Messiah.
I think that any Christian who dismisses the entire body of Jewish society for not being carried away by an ecstatic wave of messianism during the first centuries, is only doing it in order to reaffirm their faith in Christian tradition and has never took the time to address the body of scholarship concerning these periods nor to honestly examine theology.

Well it would appear that early Christianity was not something that could be distinguished from Judaism. It isn't until the Jewish Revolt that you see the gap.

What I find interesting is that the likes of James the Just adhered are said to have adhered strictly to judiastic practices.

I was reading through the Bible and I noticed that it was on Peter that Jesus would build the church, would you say that the Christian church looks like it was built on Peter? Or was it built on Paul?

 

[Caladan]

Well it would appear that early Christianity was not something that could be distinguished from Judaism. It isn't until the Jewish Revolt that you see the gap.

What I find interesting is that the likes of James the Just adhered are said to have adhered strictly to judiastic practices.

I was reading through the Bible and I noticed that it was on Peter that Jesus would build the church, would you say that the Christian church looks like it was built on Peter? Or was it built on Paul?

While Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, in a relatively short time the Non-Jewish Christians outnumbers the Jewish ones, the dogma was seriously altered to appeal to gentiles, something which created a rift between the two groups. At the end Pauline Christianity gained enough numbers to dictate how the future of Christianity and its Churches would be like.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I was reading through the Bible and I noticed that it was on Peter that Jesus would build the church, would you say that the Christian church looks like it was built on Peter? Or was it built on Paul?

Lets not derail the thread.

While Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, in a relatively short time the Non-Jewish Christians outnumbers the Jewish ones, the dogma was seriously altered to appeal to gentiles, something which created a rift between the two groups. At the end Pauline Christianity gained enough numbers to dictate how the future of Christianity and its Churches would be like.

That is classic Hyam Maccoby but not necessarily the way things went down. I think you made some very excellent points in your previous post, but the whole subject of whether Paul 'Created' Christianity is unsettled.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

While Christianity started out as a Jewish sect, in a relatively short time the Non-Jewish Christians outnumbers the Jewish ones, the dogma was seriously altered to appeal to gentiles, something which created a rift between the two groups. At the end Pauline Christianity gained enough numbers to dictate how the future of Christianity and its Churches would be like.

Yeah the appeal to Gentiles was interesting to me, mostly because I know people like to bring their own cultural insights into their belief system. For instance I know in kreole the name for God is Bondye, but that is also the name of the Voodoo God as well, down to the spelling.

Why would there be a mass appeal to the gentiles in the first place? To follow with the thread, it seems though that it is Paul who attributes to Jesus the title of Messiah, though I may certainly be off.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Lets not derail the thread.

That is classic Hyam Maccoby but not necessarily the way things went down. I think you made some very excellent points in your previous post, but the whole subject of whether Paul 'Created' Christianity is unsettled.

Apologies.

I don't think Paul created "Christianity" nor was it his intention. But he unlike any other disciple has had the most profound affect on what people now know about Christianity.