Job 22:21 and the meaning of Islam

[Tumah]

How can i know who were guessing, i just find the verse saying submit to the lord and i discussed it accordingly,

And before you said

I think those who translated it as submit were through full study and investigation, not a guess work,

you think that the translators who translated it as "submit" were wrong and the others were right, you're free for
which translations to you are right and which are wrong.

Again, the verses are there, it isn't my work.

Well, it makes sense, no? If one translator is consistent in his translation of a word, and one is not, then it makes more sense to follow the consistent one.

You also never answered my second question. Even if it did say "submit", what does this have to do with Islam?

 

[FearGod]

And before you said



Well, it makes sense, no? If one translator is consistent in his translation of a word, and one is not, then it makes more sense to follow the consistent one.

Yes i said they weren't guessing but they chose the meaning according to their investigation and i don't have a knowledge
in the process and what references they used to choose the word submit but of course i don't think they were guessing.

You also never answered my second question. Even if it did say "submit", what does this have to do with Islam?

The same meaning for the word Islam which means that we have to submit ourselves to God in a peaceful way,
Oh you think i was speaking about Islam as religion, oh i see

No i was speaking about the word and its meaning, the word and not religion but it happened Islam is a word and a religion.
it's about our relation with God as submission and obedience.

 

[Andraste]

Why submit to anything... This is a very primitive view

 

[FearGod]

Why submit to anything... This is a very primitive view

Not primitive because many refused to submit, so many in the ancient times thought the same way that you do.

 

[Ingledsva]

I guess the NIV is not such a great translation. The same root (جذر) word (ס - כ - נ) is used in Psa. 139:3 and it translates it as "you are familiar".
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+139:3

For Psa 139:3 I came up with something like -

Psa 139:3 My path (of life,) and my lying down (death,) Thou has laid out; my whole course of life Thou has preknowledge of (prior knowledge.)

So I think I would translate Job 22:21 as - reacquaint .

Job 22:21 Reacquaint now I beseech thee with Him, and by recompense, bring forth righteous good action/prosperity.


*

 

[rusra02]

Your quote is from a speech given by Eliphaz. (Job 22:1) Job 42:7 says; "Jehovah said to Elʹi·phaz the Teʹman·ite:“My anger burns against you and your two companions, for you have not spoken the truth about me." I think we should quote Eliphaz with extreme caution.

 

[IceSam]

Why submit to anything... This is a very primitive view

Submitting to a "Creator" let's just say isn't a primitive view at all. It's actually scientifically proven that religious people live a happier, healthier, and more peaceful life. For example, the Quran states "… Only in the remembrance of Allah can the heart find peace." (Qur'an, 13:28). David B. Larson, of the American National Health Research Center has done this research and brought it out to the public. As Patrick Glynn put it: "cientific research in psychology over the past twenty-five years has demonstrated that,… religious belief is one of the most consistent correlates of overall mental health and happiness."

 

[Andraste]

Not so ..... Proved: Atheists More Intelligent Than Religious People
www.medicaldaily.com › proved-atheists...
Mobile-friendly - 19 Aug 2013 - Atheists Generally Smarter Than Religious People, Studies Show. In a study of studies, researchers ...

 

[Tumah]

For Psa 139:3 I came up with something like -

Psa 139:3 My path (of life,) and my lying down (death,) Thou has laid out; my whole course of life Thou has preknowledge of (prior knowledge.)

So I think I would translate Job 22:21 as - reacquaint .

Job 22:21 Reacquaint now I beseech thee with Him, and by recompense, bring forth righteous good action/prosperity.


*

I have a slightly different translation.
My path and my lyings, You have surrounded, and all my ways, were familiar to You.

ארחי - my path
ורבעי - and my lyings (I think it means more like to crouch, because its constantly used to refer to animals doing their thing or in Lev. 18:23 not to 'lay' in front of an animal)
זרית - You have surrounded (זר is something that surrounds, like in E. 25:11,24, 25 the זר זהב, refers to the gold strip that was added around the top of the ark and table)
וכל - and all
דרכי - my ways
הסכנתה - You became familiar (to become used to, familiar with, learn by rote - similar verse is in Num 22:30 "Have I been accustomed to doing to you so?")

So Job 22:21 is saying
Becomes used to be being with Him completely, through them will come to you good.

הסכן - become used to (as above)
נא - please
עמו - with him
ושלם -and completely
בהם - with them
תבואתך - will come [to] you
טובה - good

 

[Ingledsva]

I have a slightly different translation.
My path and my lyings, You have surrounded, and all my ways, were familiar to You.

ארחי - my path
ורבעי - and my lyings (I think it means more like to crouch, because its constantly used to refer to animals doing their thing or in Lev. 18:23 not to 'lay' in front of an animal)
זרית - You have surrounded (זר is something that surrounds, like in E. 25:11,24, 25 the זר זהב, refers to the gold strip that was added around the top of the ark and table)
וכל - and all
דרכי - my ways
הסכנתה - You became familiar (to become used to, familiar with, learn by rote - similar verse is in Num 22:30 "Have I been accustomed to doing to you so?")

So Job 22:21 is saying
Becomes used to be being with Him completely, through them will come to you good.

הסכן - become used to (as above)
נא - please
עמו - with him
ושלם -and completely
בהם - with them
תבואתך - will come [to] you
טובה - good

I don't agree.

Compass also means the enclosing line or limits of any area.

Psa 139:3 My path (of life,) and my lying down (death,) Thou has laid out (compassed); my whole course of life Thou has preknowledge of (prior knowledge.)

It starts with words meaning - path (life path) and lying down (death) followed by compassed (laid out inclosing limits.)

So life and death are laid out and determined by God.

And we have plenty of references in Tanakh to lying down/sleep meaning death.

Job 7:21 Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Deuteronomy 31:16 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

We know - sâkan - also means acquaint, acquainted with, preknowledge of, - which is pretty much the same as your "were familiar to."

And 'ôrach means way, and path.

Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old way ('ôrach) which wicked men have trodden?

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: (supposedly the people turned to evil and only Noah and his family were saved)

Job 22:21 Reacquaint now I beseech thee with Him, and by recompense, bring forth righteous good action/prosperity.

Job 22:23 If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.

If thou reacquaint with him - if thou return to him = same meaning.

*

 

[Tumah]

I don't agree.

Compass also means the enclosing line or limits of any area.

Psa 139:3 My path (of life,) and my lying down (death,) Thou has laid out (compassed); my whole course of life Thou has preknowledge of (prior knowledge.)

It starts with words meaning - path (life path) and lying down (death) followed by compassed (laid out inclosing limits.)

So life and death are laid out and determined by God.

And we have plenty of references in Tanakh to lying down/sleep meaning death.

Job 7:21 Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Deuteronomy 21:13 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

This is -what I feel is- a trap that a lot of Christians fall into. Hebrew is not English, and I don't think you can apply English connotations to Hebrew words. Its true that "lying down" has the connotation of death in Tanach. But that's when the word for lying down is from the root word שכב, as in Genesis 47:30 and 1 Kings 2:10 as well as the two verses you have listed here (Daniel says sleep which is an obvious metaphor). Over here, the root word is רבע and is also synonymous with the root word רבצ (as this root is translated in Aramaic as רבע).
As far as I can tell, with the exception here and in one case by birds, these words are used exclusively in relation to animals. I believe that the word refers to the way an animal lays on its stomach like this:

Spoiler

The reason why I think that, is because besides for also being used in Lev. 18:23 to indicate a woman laying with an animal (and is using the word that indicates how animals lay), its also used in Gen. 4:7 to indicate guarding-in-waiting, which I imagine would be a similar position, like this:

Spoiler

The point being that in this case its just a loanword for how an animal lays, and refers to actual laying down as opposed to a metaphor for death. Without precedence indicating that this root word is also used as a metaphor for death, we can't interpret it any other way.

So what the verse is saying is:
My path (when I'm doing stuff) and my layings (when I rest from doing stuff) You surrounded (You're constantly present). And all my ways, you are familiar with (again indicating G-d's constant presence).

For an interesting comparison, compare this verse and the previous and Deut. 6:7.

We know - sâkan - also means acquaint, acquainted with, preknowledge of, - which is pretty much the same as your "were familiar to."

I don't see any verses with these translations you've listed here. But I will also point out that, I have noticed that English translation will use different words that are more appropriate to covey the meaning in English, even though in Hebrew, the word is the same.

And 'ôrach means way, and path.

Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old way ('ôrach) which wicked men have trodden?

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: (supposedly the people turned to evil and only Noah and his family were saved)

Job 22:21 Reacquaint now I beseech thee with Him, and by recompense, bring forth righteous good action/prosperity.

Job 22:23 If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.

If thou reacquaint with him - if thou return to him = same meaning.

*

I would say that it doesn't literally mean the same thing, "acquaint" is הכר (as in Gen. 42:8) but its saying to do similar things using dissimilar words.
Over here, the word means to become regular to. And its saying to become acquainted to G-d, by regularly interacting with him.
As opposed to Num. 22:30 where its Balaam is saying that he was never accustomed to hitting the donkey, by saying that its not something that he regularly does.
In English, its more appropriate to use different words, but in Hebrew you can use the same word to convey these things.