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John 1:1

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Most English Bibles (KJV, NIV etc) say “the Word was God” in John 1:1. However the JW Bible (NWT) says “the Word was a god”. Which is right?


the greek does not have the word 'a'
The word being with God and was God is as written and causes a tension needing explanation and for the reader to press on and find out more... it would be better if it was left as the original which was as greeks would have read it The word was with God and the word was God

in the case of Thomas statement end of same book the greek actually has a 'the'
My Lord and THE God

The bible does not say it as the NWT does, it's more a case that they believe that and reword the Bible to fit the view they believe They feel that's correct and others not so persuaded NWT has many cases of inception of extra words to make it appear the original supports their view where it might be better if the original was left as is and let the chips fall as they may
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
This makes it into more than one God= simple trinity talk--second line John 1:1--And God was with God= impossible, there is one God.
-a-wasnt written in the greek language one had to know where to put them.

And Rev 3:12--simple trinity talk--God has a God= impossible.
But, I'm not trinitarian. I'm modalist. Besides, you're the one with two Gods. You just think one is subordinate to the other. It still equals two. Don't you see can't be right because Jesus said "One" is your Master even Christ? And Jesus also said "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him "only" shalt thou serve." Yet, you believe you're servants of Jehovah and Jesus also. Why is that?

In Rev 3:12 the Son of man is talking. He must sit on the right hand until all His enemies are made His footstool. So, yes He in the form of the Son of man has a God.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Most English Bibles (KJV, NIV etc) say “the Word was God” in John 1:1. However the JW Bible (NWT) says “the Word was a god”. Which is right?

The apostles did not have 'a' inserted ... so I would see eye to eye with John the apostle who wrote it... he left it off .. where he could have added the 'a' and did not, we should follow the apostle's lead in that better to leave it off

Other examples would be inserting 'other' in places apostles did not ...

Am I wrong?
 
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DennisTate

Active Member
The apostles did not have 'a' inserted ... so I would see eye to eye with John the apostle who wrote it... he left it off .. where he could have added the 'a' and did not, we should follow the apostle's lead in that better to leave it off

Other examples would be inserting 'other' in places apostles did not ...

Am I wrong?

I think that you are onto an important idea there.... Personally........I don't think you are incorrect at all..........
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
But, I'm not trinitarian. I'm modalist. Besides, you're the one with two Gods. You just think one is subordinate to the other. It still equals two. Don't you see can't be right because Jesus said "One" is your Master even Christ? And Jesus also said "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him "only" shalt thou serve." Yet, you believe you're servants of Jehovah and Jesus also. Why is that?

In Rev 3:12 the Son of man is talking. He must sit on the right hand until all His enemies are made His footstool. So, yes He in the form of the Son of man has a God.


A god( small g) is not calling that one The God--It carries the meaning-- has godlike qualities--Gods power goes through Jesus( Acts 2:22) The same it did through Moses. Moses didn't part the red sea, YHWH(Jehovah) the only true living God did it through Moses--it worked the same with Jesus.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
A god( small g) is not calling that one The God--It carries the meaning-- has godlike qualities--Gods power goes through Jesus( Acts 2:22) The same it did through Moses. Moses didn't part the red sea, YHWH(Jehovah) the only true living God did it through Moses--it worked the same with Jesus.
Yes, He does have power. Jesus upholds all things by the "Word of His power" (Heb. 1:3) So you have a Most High God and a lower case "god" also for the church. Two gods for the church?

And you didn't explain how you're servants of Jesus without breaking the commandment of Jehovah "Him only shalt thou serve".
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Yes, He does have power. Jesus upholds all things by the "Word of His power" (Heb. 1:3) So you have a Most High God and a lower case "god" also for the church. Two gods for the church?

And you didn't explain how you're servants of Jesus without breaking the commandment of Jehovah "Him only shalt thou serve".


We don't worship Jesus. We bow in obeisance to our king. The greek word-Proskenuae carries 5 different meanings from greek to English--according to position- 1) WORSHIP to God-- 2) OBESIANCE to a king--, plus 3 others. Trinity translations erred giving worship to Jesus--they even do it while he is mortal in their translations. Not even an angel is to get worship. Only God. Jesus has a mortal mother, made lower than the angels on earth-Hebrews 2:7-9
Facts and the teachings of Jesus has already proved--no trinity god exists.
God sent Jesus for us to serve while he is king.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
We don't worship Jesus. We bow in obeisance to our king. The greek word-Proskenuae carries 5 different meanings from greek to English--according to position- 1) WORSHIP to God-- 2) OBESIANCE to a king--, plus 3 others. Trinity translations erred giving worship to Jesus--they even do it while he is mortal in their translations. Not even an angel is to get worship. Only God. Jesus has a mortal mother, made lower than the angels on earth-Hebrews 2:7-9
Facts and the teachings of Jesus has already proved--no trinity god exists.
God sent Jesus for us to serve while he is king.
I'm not trinitarian. I'm modalist.
In other words you bow and show homage to your (lowercase) god-king. So that is a form of worship to your (lower case) god. While you reserve highest worship for the greater God.

Jesus does have a mortal mother but His Father is God. Although a human being and in mortal nature "a little lower than the angels" yet God commands all the angels to worship Him. And He must reign until all things are put under His feet. No angel has that said of them.

Heb 1:4-5
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I'm not trinitarian. I'm modalist.
In other words you bow and show homage to your (lowercase) god-king. So that is a form of worship to your (lower case) god. While you reserve highest worship for the greater God.

Jesus does have a mortal mother but His Father is God. Although a human being and in mortal nature "a little lower than the angels" yet God commands all the angels to worship Him. And He must reign until all things are put under His feet. No angel has that said of them.

Heb 1:4-5
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?



Mistranslated greek word to fit false council teachings. They are in every trinity translation known. Jesus gets obeisance, not worship--Facts prove it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Mistranslated greek word to fit false council teachings. They are in every trinity translation known. Jesus gets obeisance, not worship--Facts prove it.
If Jesus' Father is God through the Holy Spirit, then in some way one must view him as being "God" even though they're not exactly one and the same. The early church felt that your approach was heresy because it ignores who's Jesus' "Father".
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Post #83 Whirling merc said : "The apostles did not have 'a' inserted ... so I would see eye to eye with John the apostle who wrote it... he left it off .. where he could have added the 'a' and did not, we should follow the apostle's lead in that better to leave it off...Other examples would be inserting 'other' in places apostles did not ... Am I wrong?"


You are wrong.

Ask a friend that you trust who knows koine greek to explain it to you. They will inform you that there is no "a" in greek to indicate an indefinite object. One cannot, literally, write "A dog." in greek using two corresponding greek words since koine greek lacks a definite article "a". One can, literally, write "THE dog." using two greek words since "the", as a definite article, does exist in greek. Thus, it is ALWAYS the context that determines whether one is speaking indefinitely. I am not a Jehovahs witness, but their interpretation is a perfectly proper translation of the greek in John 1:1.

Now, ask a friend or forum member who knows koine how one would, literally, write the five word sentence : "THE word was A God" in Koine Greek. They must use the four specific words "θεοσ εν ο λογοσ." These are the exact words the greek new testament uses.

A translator may change the word order to "0 λογοσ εν θεοσ" or "θεοσ εν ο λογοσ" (since the subject does not need to come before the verb in greek). Still, they must use the same four words written in the third phrase of John 1:1. This translation is literally correct. It is NOT the written greek of this sentence that can tell us whether the original author meant to write "A" God or "THE" God, but rather it is ONLY THE ORIGINAL CONTEXT that determines whether the phrase meant "a" God, or "the" God.

Did John MEAN to say "THE Word was THE God."? - Other considerations
Your interpretation is complicated by the fact that in the second phrase "και ο λογοσ εν προσ τον θεον" the author DOES use the greek article. It reads (literally), "and THE Word was with THE God". (We simply leave out "the" God in a translation to vernacular english).

This inclusion of an article in this sentence indicates that the Author knew the difference between an articulated and an unarticulated noun (θεοσ). One must then ask why he would articulate (presumably on purpose) in the second phrase and then make a mistake, or unarticulate the same word just two words later in the third phrase. This seems to indicate the writer intended to leave off the the article.

Also, analyze the second phrases' grammar further. "And the word was with God." If we say that "the word" = "God" then we can render the sentence : "and God was with God." yet the two subjects are in different grammatical cases. (Nominative in the case of the first word "God" and accusative in the case of the second word "God"). How does one explain in simple logical and rational terms why there is a distinction and what that distinction is if both nominative and accusative reference the same single object?

Verse 18 as a contextual clue
The context is either clarified or further complicated by verse 18 of this same chapter. “Θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο [ημιν].”
No one has ever seen God; [the] only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained him to us.”

What does it mean that the greek of this verse uses “only begotten God”?
Does one assume the Father is a “begotten” God?
There are multiple references to the son being “begotten” but none refer to the Father as a “begotten God”?

By the way, the concensus is that the greek of John 1:18 which reads the “only begotten god…” (who is in the bosom of the Father…) is the correct reading. The NA27 categorized the reading as category "B", indicating this is almost assuredly the most original greek reading. This is way it reads in Sinaiticus, also in Vaticanus, also Ephraemi, also L syrp; greek origen, Didymus Cyril, P75, 33 pc, Cl.pt, Cl.ex Thd.pt, Origen.pt, p66, L, pc sy.hmg, etc. This partial list include reading of vs 18 WITH and WITHOUT the definite article includes P75, and Sinaiticus (2nd corrector), Clement (as well as Clement from Theodotus, Eusebius, Basil, and others.

These things are not so simple as we would like them to be and it is very easy to make mistakes. We must always keep in mind that these things were written by early Christians inside the context of THEIR religion and NOT by modern Christians in the context of their modern Christian religions. "A" God in vs 1 and "only begotten God" in vs 18, fit early judeo-christian literature and their religion much better than the text fits later interpretations and doctrines adopted by modern christian movements.

In any case, good luck in coming to your own conclusions and understanding of these things.

Clear

ειτζφιδρω
 
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kjw47

Well-Known Member
If Jesus' Father is God through the Holy Spirit, then in some way one must view him as being "God" even though they're not exactly one and the same. The early church felt that your approach was heresy because it ignores who's Jesus' "Father".



God does not have a father or mother--Jesus does.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
1 In the beginning of Gods creative works the Word came to be. the Word being like God was also godly.
2 This one was in the beginning with God, 3 and helped bring all things to come into existence. Through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Cataway wrote : "1 In the beginning of Gods creative works the Word came to be. the Word being like God was also godly. 2 This one was in the beginning with God, 3 and helped bring all things to come into existence. Through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

Hi Cataway : You offered an interpretation of John 1:1-3 instead of the biblical verses.

Is this what you meant to do?
Did you want to add some narrative to explain what your text has to do with biblical text?
Are you trying to say you think this paraphrasing is what the biblical text means, or should have said instead of its' actual greek text?


Clear
ειτωσενεω
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Word was God. The Word/God's Oral Dictations are divine/god and the creator made his divine dications incarnate so the Word became god/divine.

A god sounds like making the Word another type of divinity separate from the creator. I never heard a JW explain there is more than one divinity so they could be the same but expressed differently.
Carlitos, angels are divine. Divine simply means, "of God" or "from God". It does not mean God
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Carlitos, angels are divine. Divine simply means, "of God" or "from God". It does not mean God

How is christ important if he has no relations with god?

Jesus, as I understand it, is god's son
God/father gave oral dictations to which no one followed
So, instead, he made his oral dications an incarnate (a human/flesh) who is "the father's words." (Play on words)
Given christ is his father's incarnated word, he speaks for his father.

Whatever jesus says is what his father says because he is an incarnation/image of his father's dications.

His divinity is not because jesus is god its because of his relationship with his father. Unless jesus isnt perfect (nor important?), his relationship with his father is one of the cornerstones of christian faith.

How can jesus be from god (image of, etc) if he has no relationship with his father?

Can you be god's son and still consider god a stranger?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Unveiled Artist ,

Everything you just now posted I agree with. But what I was taking issue, was concerning...
The Word/God's Oral Dictations are divine/god and the creator made his divine dications incarnate so the Word became god/divine.

"Divine" and "God" are not interchangeable words..."divine" and "of God", or "like God", are.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Acclaimed Bible scholar and Roman Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317. (Bold type is mine.)

Now, why would a Trinitarian not accept this passage as evidence promoting Jesus as God?

Because of the context, and Koine Greek grammar. (Koine Greek was the language the Apostle John wrote this.)


Let’s look at the context...John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God.” John 1:14 clearly says that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . we have beheld his glory.” Also, vss.1 & 2 say that in the beginning he was “with God.” Can one be with someone and at the same time be that person? Would John really write something so confusing and ambiguous, if he meant to convey that Jesus was God?

In consideration of this (and the grammar issues detailed below),

The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London, 1808, renders John 1:1b, ““and the word was a god””;

The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London, 1864: ““and a god was the Word””;

The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago, 1935: ““and the Word was divine””;

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn, 1950: ““and the Word was a god””;

Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany, 1975: ““and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word””;

Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin,
1978: ““and godlike sort was the Logos””;

Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany, 1979: ““and a god was the Logos””;

and 2001translation.com renders it, “the Word was a powerful one“.

At John 17:3, Jesus addresses his Father as “the only true God”; so, Jesus as “a god” merely reflects his Father’s divine qualities.—Hebrews 1:3.

Is the rendering “a god” consistent with the rules of Greek grammar? Yes. In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”


— Excerpt from “Reasoning on the Scriptures”; Trinity — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
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