John 14:28

[blü 2]

Jesus was a flesh body and the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

So Jesus amounts to nothing?

An interesting view.

I'd have thought an immaterial body, being necessarily imaginary, was much more like amounting to nothing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Jesus amounts to nothing?

An interesting view.

I'd have thought an immaterial body, being necessarily imaginary, was much more like amounting to nothing.

I did not say that. It was Jesus the Christ that offered the quoted passages.

The body of Jesus is buried, most likely under the wall of Jerusalem, it will not return, which in turn tells you what happens to all flesh. Jesus was Christ, more than flesh more than Human Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jesus' enemies never thought he was God the father.
Matthew 26:62-64
62 With that the high priest stood up and said to him: “Do you say nothing in reply? What is it these men are testifying against you?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. So the high priest said to him: “I put you under oath by the living God to tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Matthew 27:39, 40, 43, 54
39 And those passing by spoke abusively of him, shaking their heads 40 and saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!”
43 He has put his trust in God; let Him now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”
54 But when the army officer and those with him keeping watch over Jesus saw the earthquake and the things happening, they grew very much afraid and said: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”

John 19:7
7 The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”

The Demons never called Jesus Christ God the father.
Matthew 8:28, 29
28 When he came to the other side into the region of the Gadarenesʹ, two demon-possessed men coming out from among the tombs met him. They were unusually fierce, so nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?”

Mark 3:11, 12
11 Even the unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, would fall down before him and cry out and say: “You are the Son of God.” 12 But many times he sternly ordered them not to make him known.

Luke 4:41
41 Demons also came out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.” But rebuking them, he would not permit them to speak, for they knew him to be the Christ.

All of his followers, and other people knew Jesus Christ to be the son of God, not God the father.
Matthew 14:33
33 Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You really are God’s Son.”

Mark 1:1, 2
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the Son of God: 2 Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way.)

John 1:33, 34
33 Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me: ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one who baptizes in holy spirit.’ 34 And I have seen it, and I have given witness that this one is the Son of God.”

John 1:48-50
48 Nathanael said to him: “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him: “Before Philip called you, while you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” 49 Nathanael responded: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus answered him: “Do you believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree? You will see things greater than these.”

John 3:16-18
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

John 5:25, 26
25 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

John 11:27
27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

John 20:31
31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Acts 9:20
20 and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach about Jesus, that this one is the Son of God.

Romans 1:1-4
1 Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus and called to be an apostle, set apart for God’s good news, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh, 4 but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 1:18-21
18 But God can be relied on that what we say to you is not “yes” and yet “no.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you through us, that is, through me and Silvaʹnus and Timothy, did not become “yes” and yet “no,” but “yes” has become “yes” in his case. 20 For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become “yes” by means of him. Therefore, also through him is the “Amen” said to God, which brings him glory through us. 21 But the one who guarantees that you and we belong to Christ and the one who anointed us is God.

Hebrews 4:14
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him.

1 John 4:14-16
14 In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God. 16 And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him.

1 John 5:1-21
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome, 4 because everyone who has been born from God conquers the world. And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith. 5 Who can conquer the world? Is it not the one who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the one who came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three witness bearers: 8 the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 If we accept the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. Because this is the witness God gives, the witness that he has given about his Son. 10 The person putting his faith in the Son of God has the witness within himself. The person not having faith in God has made him a liar, because he has not put his faith in the witness given by God concerning his Son. 11 And this is the witness, that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in his Son. 12 The one who has the Son has this life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this life. 13 I write you these things so that you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that no matter what we ask according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us concerning whatever we are asking, we know that we are to have the things we ask for, since we have asked them of him. 16 If anyone catches sight of his brother committing a sin that does not incur death, he will ask, and God will give life to him, yes, to those not committing sin that incurs death. There is a sin that does incur death. It is concerning that sin that I do not tell him to make request. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and yet there is a sin that does not incur death. 18 We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin, but the one born from God watches him, and the wicked one cannot take hold of him. 19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. 20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting. 21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

The angels knew Jesus Christ to be the son of God, not God the father.
Luke 1:35
35 In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son.

Jesus himself, never called himself God the father, but said he was God's son.
John 10:36
36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

How often did Jesus refer to God as his father? Numerous times. Consider just a few.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 10:32, 33
32 “Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.

Matthew 11:27
27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.

These are all great Scriptures, my brother...but I’m afraid your words are hitting a brick wall.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

this statement of Jesus has puzzled many people...

Only if you spin it.

 

[blü 2]

These are all great Scriptures, my brother...but I’m afraid your words are hitting a brick wall.

That seems to be the case.

Since Jesus' numerous denials that he's God are clearly recorded in the gospels, and since Jesus never once claimed to be God, it seems the wall is constructed from dogma outside of the NT, in particular the Trinity doctrine developed in the 4th century, hundreds of years after the date of death attributed to Jesus.

Given that the churches admit the Trinity doctrine makes no sense, it follows that the wall is built of nonsense. But its defenders aren't interested in history, or the actual words of the NT. The dogma is in place and it shall not, shall not, shall not be changed, no matter what reason says.

I guess that's the nature of faith, though I confess I don't understand why faith must be unquestioning.

 

[Faithofchristian]

We also find the same expression in Isaiah 8:10 Interlinear: Take counsel, and it is broken, Speak a word, and it doth not stand, Because of Emmanu-El!'
עִמָּ֖נוּ ‘im·mā·nū with us
אֵֽל׃ ’êl. God [is]

Showing that God can be with us in various ways. In the case of the Messiah, God was with us. That does not mean Jesus was God the father, as he, as well as all the scriptures repeatedly made clear.

Please, note.
Jesus Christ is not God the father, but the son of the father.
A child can teach us this simple truth.
Teaching children to the contrary is deadly... for the teacher, that is.

God being in the body of Jesus Christ?
No. God did not come down on earth. Nor did God die. The Bible also says that no man has seen God at anytime.
The scripture tell us that God cannot die. God sent his only begotten son to die. It is the only begotten son, that explained God, and that men saw.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

The scriptures say one thing, and you say another. That would make one a liar, and none of us can claim that the scriptures lie, and we speak truth. So the scriptures make you out to be a liar.
Are you denying that? Are you saying this scripture is a lie?


Yes. These represent who Christ is, and the role he currently plays, since he fulfilled the prophecy by means of his faithful course, and death.


You can't seem to demonstrate how you are getting from A to B.
A. Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23 (The Messiah is called Emmanuel, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace)
B. Christ Jesus is God the Father, The creator of all things.

Why not take a moment to explain. I'm sure others besides myself would like to hear.
Why do you assume that Emmanuel must be God the father?
Why do you assume that Mighty God must be God the father?
Why do you assume that Everlasting Father must be God the father?
Why do you assume that Prince of Peace must be God the father?

That all because Jesus is God the Father,
Because you can't accept it, doesn't change the fact, Jesus is God the Father.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Jesus was a flesh body and the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

Jesus wasn't all flesh and blood, inside the body of Jesus is God the Father.

God the Father made himself a body and in case himself inside of the body of Jesus.

 

[Faithofchristian]

in Trinitarian terms, I thought God was Jesus' father (at least in Matthew and Luke), not just the Father.

Jesus as 100% of God is also his own father, and the Ghost as 100% of God is likewise Jesus' father.

If that's wrong, explain how.

God the Father is the Father of Jesus in the flesh.
But Jesus as God is greater than Jesus of flesh and blood.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Only if you spin it.

There's no spin to it, just simple math,
As 2+2=4

 

[blü 2]

God the Father is the Father of Jesus in the flesh.
But Jesus as God is greater than Jesus of flesh and blood.

But since by the Trinity doctrine the Father, Jesus and the Ghost are each in their own right 100% of God, and since God is the father of Jesus, how can it be argued that Jesus and the Ghost are not just as much the father of Jesus as the Father is?

 

[Faithofchristian]

But since by the Trinity doctrine the Father, Jesus and the Ghost are each in their own right 100% of God, and since God is the father of Jesus, how can it be argued that Jesus and the Ghost are not just as much the father of Jesus as the Father is?

The Holy Ghost and God the Father and Jesus are all one and the same The Almighty God.

There's no separation

 

[blü 2]

The Holy Ghost and God the Father and Jesus are all one and the same The Almighty God.

There's no separation

There is just such separation in the Trinity doctrine, which declares that Father, Jesus and Ghost are three distinct persons and each is 100% of God.

It leads to the kinds of paradoxes and reductio ad absurdum cases which have compelled even the churches to acknowledge that the doctrine makes no sense. (They call it 'a mystery in the strict sense', saying that it can't be discovered by reason but only by revelation, and once revealed can't be cogently demonstrated by reason, but that translates as 'a nonsense'.)

 

[wellwisher]

But since by the Trinity doctrine the Father, Jesus and the Ghost are each in their own right 100% of God, and since God is the father of Jesus, how can it be argued that Jesus and the Ghost are not just as much the father of Jesus as the Father is?

The way to look at this is consider the man called Joe. Joe is a father to his children, a husband to his wife and a son to his parents. Here was have three persona in one person. He is a firm but a fair leader around his children. He is loving and affectionate to his wife. He is respectful of his parents. He is one person, but based on the circumstances, one of his three adaptation is more predominate.

This is implicit of three subroutines in the unconscious mind with all grounded on the inner self; God. The trinity symbolizes a tri-core processor, similar to what we see in computers. Some tasks only require one core while other two or three cores. The CPU is one thing.

If Joe is with his children he uses one core. If he is with his wife and children he will use two cores, which then creates an output that is the blend of the two. If he is with is wife, children and parents, like during the Holidays, all three cores operate and another blend appears. The ancients saw a subtle distinction in the God output and notice three processor cores.

 

[Faithofchristian]

There is just such separation in the Trinity doctrine, which declares that Father, Jesus and Ghost are three distinct persons and each is 100% of God.

It leads to the kinds of paradoxes and reductio ad absurdum cases which have compelled even the churches to acknowledge that the doctrine makes no sense. (They call it 'a mystery in the strict sense', saying that it can't be discovered by reason but only by revelation, and once revealed can't be cogently demonstrated by reason, but that translates as 'a nonsense'.)

Heck those churches makes no sense anyway.
It's not a mystery, just plain and simple.

God the Father made himself a body and incased himself inside of the body of Jesus.
There you have Jesus the Almighty God and the Holy Ghost inside of the body of Jesus. As 3 in one body.

 

[blü 2]

The way to look at this is consider the man called Joe. Joe is a father to his children, a husband to his wife and a son to his parents. Here was have three persona in one person. He is a firm but a fair leader around his children. He is loving and affectionate to his wife. He is respectful of his parents. He is one person, but based on the circumstances, one of his three adaptation is more predominate.

This is implicit of three subroutines in the unconscious mind with all grounded on the inner self; God. The trinity symbolizes a tri-core processor, similar to what we see in computers. Some tasks only require one core while other two or three cores. The CPU is one thing.

If Joe is with his children he uses one core. If he is with his wife and children he will use two cores, which then creates an output that is the blend of the two. If he is with is wife, children and parents, like during the Holidays, all three cores operate and another blend appears. The ancients saw a subtle distinction in the God output and notice three processor cores.

I get that ─ one central personality in three roles. You can tell it's not the Trinity doctrine because it makes sense.

In the Trinity doctrine we have no single Joe, but Joe, Beau and Mo, three distinct persons, and each is 100% of God. That makes 300% = 3 gods, but the doctrine insists on only one, simultaneously with the threeness ─ 1+1+1=3 except here, where 1+1+1=1.

 

[nPeace]

So Jesus is the Father revealed. The Father is in Him!

His flesh is the veil; the inner place is the "Holiest of holies" the place where the presence of God resides. There is the "mercy seat" or as we know it the "Throne of grace". Jesus body was broken making way to the holiest place. So the veil was torn in half when He gave up the Ghost. Showing that God had left the temple at the same time. Leaving their house "desolate" as Jesus prophesied. And God left the temple of Jesus' body, but would return in the resurrection.

So according to you, - Emphasis on according to you - Jesus is a shell that God made to dwell in.
Hence God let the shell be killed, left laughing. So nobody died, but just the shell. Then when God raised up the shell and seated it at his right hand, what then dwelt in the shell?

According to the Bible, Jesus is not a shell in which God dwells. He is the only begotten son, of the father.
The father sent him to earth for a purpose, and he came willingly. He was a messenger, both in the heavens, and on the earth.
Are you denying these facts?

Certainly, from what you are saying, not only do you seem to be denying them, but you are saying things found nowhere in the scriptures.

There is no need for God to be called what He is?

God is the everlasting Father. God is the Mighty God. God is the Prince(or Chief) of Peace.

The fact that God is Almighty does not change the fact He is also Mighty. The word "mighty" does not logically refute the word "Almighty". In fact if you are "All-mighty" Then you are indeed also "mighty".

As for the word "prince" we know what it means in Hebrew. God is a Prince alright. In fact if you look at the old English usage of the word prince you find that a prince is a ruler of some kind. Not necessarily a king's son. A king can be called a prince for example. Or any ruler can be called a prince. Anyone who rules is a prince.

Here is the 1st definition from Websters Dictionary 1828 edition:

Prince
PRINCE, noun prins. [Latin princeps.]

1. In a general sense, a sovereign; the chief and independent ruler of a nation or state. Thus when we speak of the princes of Europe, we include emperors and kings. Hence, a chief in general; as a prince of the celestial host.

The prophecy in Isaiah is about whom? Is it not a prophecy about the son of God? So why are you applying the prophecy to God?
Jesus Christ is Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. So what are you saying, he can't be?
He is the mighty God. He has become the everlasting father of those redeemed by his blood. He is the prince of peace that will bring all things back to God, his father, after which... you ready for this?

(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) 24 ...he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Which book are you basing you doctrines on.
The Bible says one thing. You say another.
What did Jesus say?
Concerning his father, he quotes Isaiah's words...
(Matthew 15:6-11) 6 So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: “Listen and get the sense of it: 11 It is not what enters into a man’s mouth that defiles him, but it is what comes out of his mouth that defiles him.”

Do you and your partners get the sense of those words? Do you realize how serious it is to make the word of God invalid in the eyes of onlookers?
By teaching false doctrines, you stumble onlookers, preventing people from entering the Kingdom of God. Under normal circumstances, they may want to enter, but the confusing doctrines hinder them.
Not only them, but those who are mislead by such teachings. Matthew 23:15

This is no joke guys. Some people really think God is mock. Seriously?

 

[nPeace]

These are all great Scriptures, my brother...but I’m afraid your words are hitting a brick wall.

Yes, thanks my brother. If it were my head I was banging against this wall, I would quit. However, these words are more than what they seem to be. The words may seem like they are deflecting, but take a closer look.

No brick wall can stand up to a 6 ton ball of steel. Something will give, and it's not the steel. This wall is going down, brother.

 

[nPeace]

That all because Jesus is God the Father,
Because you can't accept it, doesn't change the fact, Jesus is God the Father.

That's all because? What do you mean? What's all because?
You haven't addressed the post. All you did was ignore it, and repeat words that you and some pastor speak - words not found or supported in scripture.

You see, facts don't become such, based on how often one repeats something that's not true.
Can you show anything to support claims you are making?
Then they are just claims - not facts.

Facts are things like this, things you can actually show, verify, and confirm. So please, rather than repeat what the facts show are lies, show something that says otherwise... if you can.
You can't, can you?

 

[nPeace]

That seems to be the case.

Since Jesus' numerous denials that he's God are clearly recorded in the gospels, and since Jesus never once claimed to be God, it seems the wall is constructed from dogma outside of the NT, in particular the Trinity doctrine developed in the 4th century, hundreds of years after the date of death attributed to Jesus.

Given that the churches admit the Trinity doctrine makes no sense, it follows that the wall is built of nonsense. But its defenders aren't interested in history, or the actual words of the NT. The dogma is in place and it shall not, shall not, shall not be changed, no matter what reason says.

I guess that's the nature of faith, though I confess I don't understand why faith must be unquestioning.

We also must realize the difference between reasonable and unreasonable, because there are religious views that are reasonable - based on good reason and evidence, and religious views that are unreasonable - based on a position held to, despite all reason and evidence against it.
Some call that irrational faith.

This is perhaps the kind of faith some say must be unquestioned.
However, Biblical faith can be questioned,
1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

...but it depends on what you mean by question.
The Bible speaks of persons being persuaded, so obviously one who is persuaded of something, should be able to give a reasonable explanation when questioned. 2 Timothy 3:14, 15

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That seems to be the case.

Since Jesus' numerous denials that he's God are clearly recorded in the gospels, and since Jesus never once claimed to be God, it seems the wall is constructed from dogma outside of the NT, in particular the Trinity doctrine developed in the 4th century, hundreds of years after the date of death attributed to Jesus.

Given that the churches admit the Trinity doctrine makes no sense, it follows that the wall is built of nonsense. But its defenders aren't interested in history, or the actual words of the NT. The dogma is in place and it shall not, shall not, shall not be changed, no matter what reason says.

I guess that's the nature of faith, though I confess I don't understand why faith must be unquestioning.

Nice post!
Faith is supposed to be based on knowledge, but some people have been given false knowledge. Like with Hitler (an extreme example, I know): how many Germans in the ‘30s thought he was the greatest? Grief, were they wrong!!

Question everything! That’s good!
Really, isn’t that what we do here? Question people’s beliefs? It’s a hodgepodge, that’s for sure!