Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
In case if you didn't know , Jesus in the flesh was about doing his Father's business.
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John 14:28
- Thread starter Faithofchristian
- Start date
In case if you didn't know , Jesus in the flesh was about doing his Father's business.
It seems to me that 'persuaded to believe' is a red flag to check out whether whatever one was persuaded to believe is true or not.
Do you agree that 'truth' means conformity to / correspondence with / accurate reflection of, reality?
... and to me his Father's business was Jesus' business as per John 5:17.
Kind of like when a father hangs out a shingle that states: Father & Son, Inc.
The same business does Not make the Father into the Son and the Son into the Father.
Any thoughts about John 6:28-29 ______
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Baha'i writings are false, As there is no where in the Bible that's written the Father himself comes.
In the New testament of the bible and the Old testament of the bible gives Prophecy about the second coming of Christ Jesus.
But nothing about the Father himself comes in all the bible.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
As for John 5:17, Jesus was sent into this world to do the Fathers business.
It's like father & son owns a business the father hears what customers wants and then sends his son out to take care of the fathers business.
In the case of God the Father, when the day and hour arrived for the prophecy to be fulfilled, God the Father sent his
Son Christ Jesus into this world to do the Fathers business.
As for John 6:28-29,
In verse 28, We find people asking Christ Jesus what work of God's shall they do, that they might work the work of God's.
And then in verse 29, We find Christ Jesus answered the people, and said unto the people,
( This is the work of God the Father, That you believe on him ( Christ Jesus ) whom God the Father has sent.
GoldenThread
Member
This is a head scratcher. I am not getting your point. Please elaborate.
In peace
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
At the judgement of Christ Jesus, everyone are judge according to what they did of flesh and blood.
At the great white throne judgement of God's, everyone will be judge according to the spirit.
This why Christ Jesus said, Fear not them that can destroy the body of flesh and blood,
But Fear him ( God) who is able to destroy the body of flesh and blood and spirit in hell.
So what we here is, The judgement of Christ Jesus that will judge everyone according to what they done in the body of flesh and blood.
And then after the thousand years have expired, then everyone will be judge according to what they have done in the spirit. This being the Great White Throne judgement of God the Father.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Why don't you say what is in scripture, rather than your own contradicting views 74x12?
Where does the scriptures say Jesus the Son of man sits on the right hand of the Father in glorified human form?
Jesus was raised a spirit, not a human.
The more you put your views on scripture, the more foreign it sounds. It's as though you have a completely new paraphrased. 74x12 version.
Anyway, that aside, why do you refer to JWs headquarters as the Watchtower? It sounds nice, because when I think of a Watchtower, I think of a lookout post, where a watchman keeps a keen eye into the distance, so that he can sound a warning, and save the city's inhabitants, and that describes our headquarters quite well, but they are not the Watchtower okay. That's the name of one of our magazines.
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses (GB of JWs) aka "the Faithful and Discrete Slave" (Matthew 24:45) are really in line with scriptures. Perhaps you should listen to them that way you would say what the Bible says, and you would come to know the father... but then again maybe you won't, because although the greatest man of all, came and taught the truth about the father, you still don't get it. So I doubt very much the GB of JWs can make a difference.
Good news though!
Your post here helped me to see why. So now I will stop beating you over the head because that would only result in a negative outcome - beating you into a stupor, rather than a correct understanding.
I realize now why you twist the scriptures to suit your understanding. You honestly think that taking the scriptures as they really are, is absurd. You honestly believe that people who believe the scriptures as they really should be taken, are misunderstanding it. So whereas what you believe seem like jaw dropping absurdity to us, what we believe is just as ridiculous to you.
So for that reason, I apologize for thinking honestly that you were not only blinded by Satan, but a willing fellow worker with him. Now I know, it's just that you are blinded by him.
So I am done bashing your wall, because you'll only build it up again, because you can't see that it's a badly built wall on the verge of collapse... and it will cause some serious and permanent damage.
What I will do therefore, is show you where you are not building on Christ, and leave you to decide what to do. As @Hockeycowboy said, I'm not the one who will cause its collapse.
So here we go.
Father
Actually, I don't only have two fathers. I have four.
My four fathers are 1. Jehovah - my heavenly father, 2. my biological father, and now, 3. the everlasting father - Christ Jesus, and 4. a dead father, although he yet lives.
No. it's not Adam. He was replaced. If he were alive, I would only have three, since there would have been no need for the fourth.
Romans 4:9-12
9 Does this happiness, then, only come to circumcised people or also to uncircumcised people? For we say: “Abraham’s faith was counted to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances, then, was it counted as righteousness? When he was circumcised or uncircumcised? He was not yet circumcised but was uncircumcised. 11 And he received a sign — namely, circumcision — as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, so that he might be the father of all those having faith while uncircumcised, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; 12 and so that he might be a father to circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had while in the uncircumcised state.
Luke 20:37, 38
37 But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”
9 Does this happiness, then, only come to circumcised people or also to uncircumcised people? For we say: “Abraham’s faith was counted to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances, then, was it counted as righteousness? When he was circumcised or uncircumcised? He was not yet circumcised but was uncircumcised. 11 And he received a sign — namely, circumcision — as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, so that he might be the father of all those having faith while uncircumcised, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; 12 and so that he might be a father to circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had while in the uncircumcised state.
Luke 20:37, 38
37 But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”
I could have had only two fathers, but that would have been a bad choice. So you say you have only one? Hmmm. You probably got that one right.
John 8:43, 44
43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
Anyhow nPeace is going to be nice. I want you and yours to have four fathers, like I do, and even if we lost our biological, we still have... a lot.
Any objections?
You objected with scriptures. I added one for you.
Matthew 23:8-10
8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Is it your view that God is against calling your papa father? Do you reject Abraham as your father? You decide.
However, when we consider context, we get an understanding of scripture without any need to twist them.
Paul was a father too, wasn't he? Was it wrong for him to be a father? Does this verse belong in scripture? Does it contradict scripture?
1 Corinthians 4:15, 16
15 For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you certainly do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, I have become your father through the good news. 16 I urge you, therefore, become imitators of me.
Now if Paul - a man, can be our father, what of Jesus Christ - the one who bought us with his precious blood.
nPeace
Veteran Member
God
Yes, I have one God, who requires worship,, and another who doesn't. Hey, what do you know... you are right 1+1=2
Again, context matters.
Psalm 82:1, 6
1 God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges:
6 “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.
John 10:34, 35
34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came - and yet the scripture cannot be nullified -
Exodus 4:16 He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.
These were God appointed. They served as representatives of God, and spokesmen of him, with his authority. Likewise Jesus Christ has been appointed by God, to express his wrath. He will indeed be a mighty God.
So do you think we should reject those appointed by God, in whatever position he authorizes them? You can decide on that.
I could reject the ones he appointed, but that would leave me with one I don't want.
Nothing personal.
What about Savior. How many saviors do you have? According to your reasoning you should only have one, based on these scriptures...
Isaiah 43:11, 12
11 I — I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” 12 “I am the One who declared and saved and made known When there was no foreign god among you. So you are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “and I am God.
Hosea 13:4 But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt; You knew no God except me, And besides me there is no savior.
Do I have more than one savior? Certainly - one ultimate... one appointed. 1+1=2
For me however, I understand the context, and the GB of JWs understand it, and teach it. There is no problem when you consider the context.
Jehovah raised up saviors, and he appointed a chief savior.
Judges 3:15 Then the Israelites called to Jehovah for help, so Jehovah raised up for them a savior, Ehud. .
. .
Luke 1:46, 47
46 And Mary said: “My soul magnifies Jehovah, 47 and my spirit cannot keep from being overjoyed at God my Savior,
Luke 2:11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Acts 13:23 God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus.
Here is something interesting...
Chief Agent / prince of life
Acts 3:15, 16
15 whereas you killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses. 16 And through his name, and by our faith in his name, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. The faith that is through him has made this man completely healthy in front of all of you.
Strong's Greek: 747. ἀρχηγός (archégos) -- founder, leader
Strong's Concordance
archégos: founder, leader
Original Word: ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ
...
Usage: originator, author, founder, prince, leader.
HELPS Word-studies
747 arxēgós(from 746 /arxḗ, "the first" and 71 /ágō, "to lead") – properly, the first in a long procession; a file-leader who pioneers the way for many others to follow. 747 (arxēgós) does not strictly mean "author," but rather "a person who is originator or founder of a movement and continues as the leader – i.e. 'pioneer leader, founding leader' " (L & N, 1, 36.6).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from archó and hégeomai
Definition
founder, leader
NASB Translation
author (2), Prince (1), prince (1).
Who is the chief agent or prince?
Acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
The scriptures are clear it would seem. They are speaking of two persons. God the father, and his son Christ Jesus.
I believe if we stick to the scriptures, and understand them in their context, there clearly contradict your view, but then, you don't see that. You seem to believe they support your view.
Now that I understand that you and @Faithofchristian seem to sincerely believe this, all I can say is, I hope you have a different view some day. Hopefully something I said would contribute to that.
Hey! Maybe one day you will be saying, 'The Watchtower had it right all along."
However, I still would like to say that you seem to me to be twisting and twisting the scriptures to your benefit.
The apostle Peter didn't agree that it will be to anyone's benefit, to twist the scriptures.
He said, "...these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16
Interesting that this was written over 10 centuries, and still relevant.
I'll like to ask though, if I may...
In your view, if Jesus is God the father, how do you thank God the father through Jesus? How is Jesus a high priest interceding in your behalf? How is he a go-between, a mediator and judge?
John 5:25-28
25 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man.
2 John 3 There will be with us undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, with truth and love.
By the way, I also have more than one king. What about you?
Yes, I have one God, who requires worship,, and another who doesn't. Hey, what do you know... you are right 1+1=2
Again, context matters.
Psalm 82:1, 6
1 God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges:
6 “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.
John 10:34, 35
34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came - and yet the scripture cannot be nullified -
Exodus 4:16 He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.
These were God appointed. They served as representatives of God, and spokesmen of him, with his authority. Likewise Jesus Christ has been appointed by God, to express his wrath. He will indeed be a mighty God.
So do you think we should reject those appointed by God, in whatever position he authorizes them? You can decide on that.
I could reject the ones he appointed, but that would leave me with one I don't want.
2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
What about Savior. How many saviors do you have? According to your reasoning you should only have one, based on these scriptures...
Isaiah 43:11, 12
11 I — I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” 12 “I am the One who declared and saved and made known When there was no foreign god among you. So you are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “and I am God.
Hosea 13:4 But I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt; You knew no God except me, And besides me there is no savior.
Do I have more than one savior? Certainly - one ultimate... one appointed. 1+1=2
For me however, I understand the context, and the GB of JWs understand it, and teach it. There is no problem when you consider the context.
Jehovah raised up saviors, and he appointed a chief savior.
Judges 3:15 Then the Israelites called to Jehovah for help, so Jehovah raised up for them a savior, Ehud. .
. .
Luke 1:46, 47
46 And Mary said: “My soul magnifies Jehovah, 47 and my spirit cannot keep from being overjoyed at God my Savior,
Luke 2:11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Acts 13:23 God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus.
Here is something interesting...
Chief Agent / prince of life
Acts 3:15, 16
15 whereas you killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses. 16 And through his name, and by our faith in his name, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. The faith that is through him has made this man completely healthy in front of all of you.
Strong's Greek: 747. ἀρχηγός (archégos) -- founder, leader
Strong's Concordance
archégos: founder, leader
Original Word: ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ
...
Usage: originator, author, founder, prince, leader.
HELPS Word-studies
747 arxēgós(from 746 /arxḗ, "the first" and 71 /ágō, "to lead") – properly, the first in a long procession; a file-leader who pioneers the way for many others to follow. 747 (arxēgós) does not strictly mean "author," but rather "a person who is originator or founder of a movement and continues as the leader – i.e. 'pioneer leader, founding leader' " (L & N, 1, 36.6).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from archó and hégeomai
Definition
founder, leader
NASB Translation
author (2), Prince (1), prince (1).
Who is the chief agent or prince?
Acts 5:31 God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
The scriptures are clear it would seem. They are speaking of two persons. God the father, and his son Christ Jesus.
I believe if we stick to the scriptures, and understand them in their context, there clearly contradict your view, but then, you don't see that. You seem to believe they support your view.
Now that I understand that you and @Faithofchristian seem to sincerely believe this, all I can say is, I hope you have a different view some day. Hopefully something I said would contribute to that.
Hey! Maybe one day you will be saying, 'The Watchtower had it right all along."
However, I still would like to say that you seem to me to be twisting and twisting the scriptures to your benefit.
The apostle Peter didn't agree that it will be to anyone's benefit, to twist the scriptures.
He said, "...these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16
Interesting that this was written over 10 centuries, and still relevant.
I'll like to ask though, if I may...
In your view, if Jesus is God the father, how do you thank God the father through Jesus? How is Jesus a high priest interceding in your behalf? How is he a go-between, a mediator and judge?
John 5:25-28
25 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man.
2 John 3 There will be with us undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, with truth and love.
By the way, I also have more than one king. What about you?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Many persons like yourself, believe that a person whom has been persuaded, has not checked out the facts, but that is a misconception.
Convince vs. Persuade: What’s the Difference? - Writing Explained
It is sometimes said that a person is convinced by an appeal to reason or logic and a person is persuaded by an appeal to feelings or emotions.
This is not necessarily true. Both convincing and persuading can be done through arguments and reason.
Reaching Hearts With the Art of Persuasion — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
MANY people regard the word “persuasion” with suspicion. It may suggest to one’s mind a pushy salesperson or an advertisement designed to deceive or manipulate the consumer. Even in the Bible, the idea of persuasion sometimes has negative connotations, denoting a corrupting or a leading astray. For example, the Christian apostle Paul wrote to the Galatians: “You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping on obeying the truth? This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling you.” (Galatians 5:7, 8) Paul also warned the Colossians against letting anyone ‘delude them with persuasive arguments.’ (Colossians 2:4) Such persuasion depends on clever arguments built on false foundations.
In his second letter to Timothy, however, the apostle Paul used the idea of persuasion in a different sense. He wrote: “Continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from what persons you learned them.” (2 Timothy 3:14) In being “persuaded to believe,” Timothy was not being manipulated by his mother and his grandmother, through whom he learned Scriptural truths. - 2 Timothy 1:5.
While under house arrest in Rome, Paul bore thorough witness to many, “using persuasion with them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.” (Acts 28:23) Was Paul deceiving his audience? By no means! Clearly, then, persuasion is not always a bad thing.
Used in a positive sense, the Greek root word translated “persuade” means to convince, to bring about a change of mind by means of sound, logical reasoning.
Help Others to Accept the Kingdom Message — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Use the Art of Persuasion
6 In the book of Acts, Greek terms for persuasion are repeatedly used in association with Paul. What meaning does this have as far as our disciple-making work is concerned?
7 In the original language of the Christian Greek Scriptures, “persuade” means to “win over” or bring about “a change of mind by the influence of reason or moral considerations,” states Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Examining the root meaning provides further enlightenment. It conveys the idea of trust. Therefore if you persuade a person to accept a Bible teaching, you have won over his trust, so that he puts faith in the truthfulness of that teaching. Obviously, it is not enough to tell a person what the Bible says in order for him to believe it and act upon it. Your listener must be convinced that what you say is true, whether that individual is a child, a neighbor, a work associate, a schoolmate, or a relative.—2 Timothy 3:14, 15.
“Wisdom Is for a Protection” — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
The Greek word for “persuade” has the meaning of “bringing about a change of mind by the influence of reason or moral considerations,” says An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine.
Strong's Greek: 4104. πιστόω (pistoó) -- to make trustworthy, hence to establish
Strong's Concordance
pistoó: to make trustworthy, hence to establish
Original Word: πιστόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pistoó
Phonetic Spelling: (pis-to'-o)
Definition: to make trustworthy, to establish
Usage: I convince, establish, give assurance to; pass: I am assured of.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pistos
Definition
to make trustworthy, hence to establish
NASB Translation
convinced (1).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4104: πιστόω
πιστόω, πιστῷ: 1 aorist passive ἐπιστωθην; (πιστός);
1. to make faithful, render trustworthy: τό ῤῆμα, 1 Kings 1:36; τινα ὅρκοις, Thucydides 4, 88; universally, to make firm, establish, 1 Chronicles 17:14.
2. Passive (the Sept. in various senses for נֶאֱמָן) and middle to be firmly persuaded of; to be assured of: τί (Opp. cyn. 3, 355. 417; Lucian, philops. 5), 2 Timothy 3:14; Hesychius ἐπιστώθη. ἐπείσθη, ἐπληροφορήθη. (In various other senses in secular authors from Homer down.)
What is truth?
The reason I give the definition is because I have no way of knowing how you interpret those phrases, and people tend to interpret things differently, or put a spin on them.
TRUTH
The Hebrew term ʼemethʹ, often rendered “truth,” may designate that which is firm, trustworthy, stable, faithful, true, or established as fact. (Ex 18:21; 34:6; De 13:14; 17:4;22:20; Jos 2:12; 2Ch 18:15; 31:20; Ne 7:2; 9:33; Es 9:30; Ps 15:2; Ec 12:10; Jer 9:5) The Greek word a·leʹthei·a stands in contrast with falsehood or unrighteousness and denotes that which conforms to fact or to what is right and proper. (Mr 5:33; 12:32; Lu 4:25; Joh 3:21; Ro 2:8; 1Co 13:6; Php 1:18; 2Th 2:10, 12; 1Jo 1:6, 8; 2:4, 21) A number of other original-language expressions can, depending upon the context, also be translated “truth.”
the quality or state of being true.
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
So do you have the above in mind?
I can agree we are to believe on him (Christ Jesus) whom "God" the Father has sent.
No where do I read "Jesus" the Father sent himself, rather the God of Jesus sent Jesus to Earth for us.
Even the resurrected heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
When you mention what 'is true in reality....' reminds me of what is Not true would be counterfeit.
When a person goes to work in a bank that person is Not expected to examine all counterfeit bills.
Rather, instead of researching all bills he looks or examines a real bill, and then looks to see if the other bills match to the real bill in front of him.
To Christians the 'real bill' is the Bible, and with personal examination one can see if what is presented matches the Bible (real bill) or is counterfeit teachings outside of Scripture just being taught as being Scripture.
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I have never seen how that could work.
Quite a few Christians insist that the bible, not ought to be, but is, one harmonious whole. Anyone at all familiar with ancient documents will find that view impossible to maintain. The bible's books were written at different times and places by different people with different worldviews and purposes, so you get a mix of folktale, folk history, actual history, law, priestcraft, songs, wisdom, sermons and political polemic, letters, and so on.
God himself changes as the story goes along. At the start, let's say about 1000 BCE, he's one of many gods, has a heavenly court with the 'sons of God' as courtiers, and demands pre-eminence. By about 500 BCE around the time of the Babylonian captivity he becomes a monogod. By 50 CE, in one version he's become the Father of Jesus, and by about 400 CE, this version becomes 'triune'. What next?
It's all sociologically interesting in its way, but a harmonious whole it never was, and isn't.
The real bill is the most accurate record of reality available. Five minutes of CNN news have more truth in them than most of the books of the bible.
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I find there is a coming 'judgement day' right here on Earth among the living as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
ALL those people are alive in the flesh, so of course they are judged in the flesh according as to what they do.
I am wondering what verse you have in mind when you say' ,.... and flesh and blood and spirit in hell'.
I can't find such a Scripture.
I see 'whole body ' at Matthew 5:30. KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
This ties in with Jesus words found at Matthew 7:13 with many on the 'road of opportunity' leading to destruction.
That agrees with Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be ' destroyed forever' Not burning forever.
So, those who stay on that ' broad way ' will 'perish' forever - 2 Peter 3:9.
Thus, the destroyed whole body would include one's heart, mind and spirit.
At the end of the thousand years, people alive on Earth (survivors of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14) and the resurrected ones who will be alive in the flesh on Earth. They are the resurrected ones of Revelation 20:13-14.
After everyone in ' biblical hell ' (man's temporary grave) is resurrected out of hell ( 'delivered up ' ), then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell /grave.
Those resurrected ones are physically healthy flesh,blood and spirit and are part of earth's nations who have been healed according to Revelation 22:2.
Those alive at that time who have an adverse judgement will be destroyed before Jesus hands back God's Kingdom to his God according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26,
What is Not working is that 'Christendom' (so-called Christian but mostly in name only) are counterfeit Christians.
As one holds up a genuine $20.00 bill against all other 20's that exposes the counterfeit ones.
So, personal examination of the Bible against as the story goes shows it is Not the Bible as counterfeit, but the teachings of men's versions (priest craft) outside of Scripture but being taught as Scripture that is what is the wrong.
Because the Bible is unique with its corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages does show the internal harmony among its many writers. In other words, the Bible is Not in ABC order as a dictionary is, so the Bible need to be searched or researched by subject or topic arrangement thus showing the internal harmony.
There's a long and endlessly popular Christian tradition of calling any Christian who disagrees with you 'not a real Christian'. Fortunately or unfortunately, there's no official checklist to distinguish the real Christians from the others.
My own view is that being a decent person is the important thing. You don't need to be a believer for that, though many people of faith are decent people.
You're joking, surely? You uphold the morality of invasive war? Massacre of populations? Mass rape? Grandscale pillage? Slavery? Human sacrifice? Belittled status of women? The bible shows God approving, encouraging, ordering all those things. Is that the real you?
GoldenThread
Member
Okay so there are two times of judgments? I think I can follow that much, but I am not sure where you got this doctrine from. I assume from the Bible? If so, please share the corresponding scriptures to support this. Thanks.
In peace
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
whether it be unbelievers or believers, all shall stand before the Judgement seat of Christ Jesus. As it is written,
Romans 14:10---"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ"
To be judge accordingly to what people have done in the body of flesh and blood, Whether it be unbelievers or believers, all shall stand before the judgement seat of Christ Jesus, that everyone may receive the things they done in his body, whether it be good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10--"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad"
And then after the thousand years have expired, Then shall all stand before God at his Great White Throne judgement seat, to be judge accordingly to what they have done in the spirit.
Revelation 20:11-12--"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them"
12- "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"
This is what prompted Christ Jesus to say, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Matthew 10:28.
This all takes place at God's Great White Throne judgement, This being that time Christ Jesus spoke of in Matthew 10:28 that God shall destroy both body and soul in hell. This being the Great White Throne judgement of God's.Whether they are unbelievers or believers all shall stand before God's Great White Throne judgement.
GoldenThread
Member
Okay, I am not sure where you are getting the idea that people will be judged according to the 'spirit'. What exactly does it mean to be judged according to the spirit? Also, the scripture you quoted that talked about standing before the great white thrown talks about being judged according to people's 'works'; how do you get spirit from this?
In peace
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
As to how do I come by the spirit being judge, all because when Christ Jesus returns, everyone changes from the body of flesh and blood to the spirit.
1st Corinthians 15:50-52--"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"
What is written here, happens at the return of Christ Jesus. That everyone will change to the spirit, and will not be flesh and blood no more, but spirit.
Everyone will be spirit at the Great White Throne judgement of Gods, and not of flesh and blood no more. But of the spirit.
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