John Lennon's Imagine

[Buttercup]

yes but territory, possesions , gold ,oil all make some kind of sense . but religion is completely irrational

I think I understood your sentence.....and my reply is that those reasons make no more sense to me to start a war than religion does.

War should ALWAYS be the very, very last resort to solve any issue. To me, war itself is irrational. Diplomacy is the answer....the only "rational" response.

 

[YmirGF]

Just the opposite, actually. A pure communist state wouldn't exist, it would have no government or political institutions.

Yes Djamila that is correct. Like Islam, Communism looks great on paper, it just doesn't work in the real world. Strange how they both tend to develope totalitarian regimes, ain't it?

 

[kai]

I think I understood your sentence.....and my reply is that those reasons make no more sense to me to start a war than religion does.

War should ALWAYS be the very, very last resort to solve any issue. To me, war itself is irrational. Diplomacy is the answer....the only "rational" response.

ok gotcha , cant really argue the point that war is rational can i , can i say that religion is the most un ratioanl reason i know to go to war than all the other unrational things i listed before (phew!)

 

[Buttercup]

ok gotcha , cant really argue the point that war is rational can i , can i say that religion is the most un ratioanl reason i know to go to war than all the other unrational things i listed before (phew!)

Yes, going to war over religion is very irrational. When I was a kid I could never understand the Protestant and Catholic wars in Ireland. I used to ask my mom about it all the time....to me it made no sense at all. I figured if both sides loved Jesus what was the problem? Naive children,....they see the silliness.

 

[gnostic]

I generally give the same response to questions of this nature. If the world existed without religion, there would still be tribal wars, territorial wars, wars over possessions between the haves and have nots and wars over words spoken that inflame. Man is a war beast.....there's no getting around it, unfortunately. Sooner or later and for myriad reasons, men will hate and kill each other.

Of course, there would always be wars that are tribal or territorial. But there used to be no religious wars. Only when Abrahamic religions spread, did people began fighting in the name of religion.

The Babylonians, Egyptians and Greeks did spread their empires on religious basis. All three of these empires were actually willing to acquire new gods to their ever-growing pantheons, or even adopting new religion. They didn't persecute other religious people to convert, except only at one point in ancient Egypt. Egypt experiences religious persecution, when Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) introduce his monotheism, Atenism, during his reign.

It would seem that monotheistic religions have repeatedly become involve in religious wars and persecutions.

 

[kai]

Yes, going to war over religion is very irrational. When I was a kid I could never understand the Protestant and Catholic wars in Ireland. I used to ask my mom about it all the time....to me it made no sense at all. I figured if both sides loved Jesus what was the problem? Naive children,....they see the silliness.

Indeed this kind of covers my point ,i can see the republican cause but how can a confessed roman catholic kill and yet not use a condom because of the sanctity of life.

 

[kai]

Of course, there would always be wars that are tribal or territorial. But there used to be no religious wars. Only when Abrahamic religions spread, did people began fighting in the name of religion.

The Babylonians, Egyptians and Greeks did spread their empires on religious basis. All three of these empires were actually willing to acquire new gods to their ever-growing pantheons, or even adopting new religion. They didn't persecute other religious people to convert, except only at one point in ancient Egypt. Egypt experiences religious persecution, when Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) introduce his monotheism, Atenism, during his reign.

It would seem that monotheistic religions have repeatedly become involve in religious wars and persecutions.

dont you think though that the romans greeks etc only adopted other gods because they were the same gods with the same aspects only with different names. i agree with you on Akhenaton

 

[Buttercup]

It would seem that monotheistic religions have repeatedly become involve in religious wars and persecutions.

What about the White Lotus Revolution? Certainly not an Abrahamic religion. From Wikipedia:

White Lotus Revolution

A revolution, inspired by the White Lotus society, took shape in 1352 around Guangzhou. A Buddhist monk and former boy-beggar, Zhu Yuanzhang, (Wade-Giles: Chu Yüan-chang) threw off his vestments and joined the rebellion. His exceptional intelligence took him to the head of a rebel army; he won people to his side by forbidding his soldiers to pillage, in observance of White Lotus religious beliefs. By 1355 the rebellion had spread through much of China.

 

[Djamila]

Yes Djamila that is correct. Like Islam, Communism looks great on paper, it just doesn't work in the real world. Strange how they both tend to develope totalitarian regimes, ain't it?

Not really. It seems to me totalitarian regimes tend to develop where the upper classes are much higher than the lower classes, and the middle class is weak. Eastern Europe, for example, has had more totalitarian leaders I'm aware of than the Middle East.

Even today, these factors are starting to take hold in the United States - that could explain some of the shifts towards a totalitarian regime. Russia, the same thing. The collapse of communism sent the upper classes through the roof, and removed the safety net sustaining the lower classes. The middle class grew for a few years, then collapsed.

The same is true throughout most of the Middle East, and is less true in the areas that are the most free.

And Islam works just find in my life.

 

[gnostic]

Gee.

I was hoping to get more general feedback from people, but somehow we strayed into communism and islam. We are getting sidetracked, but that's nothing unusual, since I often do the same thing, and one of the biggest culprit in getting off the beaten track.

Two questions from the OP:

Has religion made the world a better place?

Has religion really helped with peace?

I would say yes and no in both questions. There has been benefits, but there has been a lot of negatives too in religion. So do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Or has it been vice versa?

 

[Buttercup]

Gee.

I was hoping to get more general feedback from people, but somehow we strayed into communism and islam. We are getting sidetracked, but that's nothing unusual, since I often do the same thing, and one of the biggest culprit in getting off the beaten track.

Two questions from the OP:

Has religion made the world a better place?

Has religion really helped with peace?

I would say yes and no in both questions. There has been benefits, but there has been a lot of negatives too in religion. So do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Or has it been vice versa?

Wow....did we get that far off the OP? Sorry! Alrighty then:

Has religion made the world a better place?

I am going to make my answer very simplistic, mostly because it's getting late and I don't want to go digging for stats. I do think that religion has improved the world through millions of acts of kindness that otherwise might not have been performed. Orphanages, food programs, job programs, agricultural ventures, you name it....there have been religious groups that have performed enormously generous and kind deeds time and time again.

Has religion really helped with peace?

If you mean in helping to keep the world peaceful?....hmm, I'm thinking an overall, no.

 

[kai]

Gee.

I was hoping to get more general feedback from people, but somehow we strayed into communism and islam. We are getting sidetracked, but that's nothing unusual, since I often do the same thing, and one of the biggest culprit in getting off the beaten track. sorry gnostic i just cant help it sometimes

Two questions from the OP:

Has religion made the world a better place? a resounding no

Has religion really helped with peace? again a resounding no

I would say yes and no in both questions. There has been benefits, but there has been a lot of negatives too in religion. So do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Or has it been vice versa?

............

 

[gnostic]

You have actually answered my post earlier (post 11). But the other members (including me ) did went off the tangent with islam and communism.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

First off, I would just like to say that John's song was properly named "Imagine".

I would say yes and no in both questions. There has been benefits, but there has been a lot of negatives too in religion. So do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Or has it been vice versa?

Augustine: "A philosophy should not be judged by it's abuses"

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[YmirGF]

Two questions from the OP:

Has religion made the world a better place? 40% Yes; 60% No
I believe that religion gives people the incorrect idea about what god is, but that is just my opinion. It simply puzzles me why people need their books at all. It's not like one needs them to find inner peace, lol.

Has religion really helped with peace?
No, not in my estimation. It has caused as much strife as it has relieved, again, imho. It is sort of unfair or biased to ask religious people the question.

I would say yes and no in both questions. There has been benefits, but there has been a lot of negatives too in religion. So do the benefits outweigh the negatives? Or has it been vice versa?

Everyone seems to be so hung up on getting out of this world or surviving this world, that they don't seem to understand what it means to "be here now". Maybe I'm stupid though.

BTW: You youngsters do understand that Lennon's "Imagine" is an lsd inspired utopia, right?

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

BTW: You youngsters do understand that Lennon's "Imagine" is an lsd inspired utopia, right?

I wonder how many would know who you were talking about if you started throwing names like Aliester Crowley, Timothy Leary, or Aldious Huxely around?

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[Smoke]

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
​

I agree that religion and nationalism have contributed to the divisions and bloodshed of humankind, but ...

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
​

I always find it annoying to be lectured about possessions by people who own several apartments on Central Park West.

 

[nutshell]

I'm sorry, but this song always bugs me (even though I sang it during karaoke for my Japanese father-in-law who LOVED the Beatles and John Lennon).

The reason is I like having my own nation because I believe and hope my own nation will do everything in its power to do what's best for me, its citizen. If we were a 100% globalized world then I fear there would be people on the other side of the world that know or understand little about me making decisions for me - decisions I may not agree with.

As for religion - many horrors have been wrought upon this earth in the name of religion, but I find religion is often just the excuse. It is usually an abused institutions by power hungry individuals who wish to stay in power and expand their influence.

 

[Tigress]

What do people think we they hear John Lennon's song - Imagine?

I think it's an amazing song. "Imagine...Nothing to kill or die for..." It reflects on just how much man has let himself become sidetracked, if you will, enamored with material things.

Can there be peace and fellowship for all, without religion or politics?

As long as there are people in the world who will allow themselves to be so caught up in an 'I, me, mine' attitude, whether in religion, politics, or otherwise, I fail to see how it would be possible. However, one can do his part (however small), and continue to hope.

Has religion made the world a better place?

Ultimately, religion has been another one of those things that man has exploited for his own cause, and its' nature is one that is, in fair part, subject to its' practitioner(s). Thus, in certain aspects, I feel religion has helped to make the world a better place, and in others, not so much.--I think that whatever your answer, religion can be said to have made the world a more interesting place, at least.

BTW: You youngsters do understand that Lennon's "Imagine" is an lsd inspired utopia, right?

Actually, Lennon's 'Imagine' was inspired by Yoko Ono, and her childhood experiences during the second world war.

 

[fantome profane]

I generally give the same response to questions of this nature. If the world existed without religion, there would still be tribal wars, territorial wars, wars over possessions between the haves and have nots and wars over words spoken that inflame. Man is a war beast.....there's no getting around it, unfortunately. Sooner or later and for myriad reasons, men will hate and kill each other.

You’re right of course, but religion is just one of the things mentioned in the song. It also says no countries, no greed, no hunger. There are many reasons to hate and to kill. The Question is can you imagine a world without them?

BTW: You youngsters do understand that Lennon's "Imagine" is an lsd inspired utopia, right?

Perhaps, but has “God” ever “inspired” anything more beautiful?

Two questions from the OP:

Has religion made the world a better place?

Has religion really helped with peace?

I agree with you that there have been many positives and many negatives resulting from religion. If you are asking us to sum it all up and give you the overall balance, then I have to say I am sorry, I am just not that good at math.

So many dead + so many fed, Love Thy Neighbour divided by God hates ****, inner peace multiplied by fear, repression and subjugation. These kind of equations are just too complicated for my poor little brain.