REGARDING DYBMNs LIST OF CRITICISMS OF THE MESSIAH
Desecration of Shabbos, traveling and working
Desecration of Shabbos, not delighting in it
Desecration of G-d, arguing about halacha in public with Judges
Harming people
Haughtiness
Harming himself
Putting a stumbling block
That's 7.
REGARDING DYBMHs CRITICISM #1 AGAINST THE MESSIAH FOR "TRAVELING AND WORKING"
Desecration of Shabbos, traveling and working
That's 7.
Post #171 Clear pointed out that the pharisees
could have viewed the Messiah as having disobeyed their man-made traditions or they
could have reflected that a miracle was done by the power of the God who gave the original commandments. They
chose to honor their traditions consistent with the rabbinic code :
“It is more culpable to teach contrary to the precepts of the scribes, than contrary to the Thorah itself.” (Sanhedrin xi.3a)
OK, the problem here is, that healing on Shabbos is not a sin. That wasn't in my list. He was traveling and working.
SPECIFIC WORK MAY AND SHOULD BE DONE ON THE SABBATH, WORK WHICH THE MESSIAH WAS DOING, THE WORK OF GOD
Post #189 Clear confronted dybmh with a list of different sorts of work in post #171 , including the Jewish rule from the Tosefta that says “
One may not run on the Sabbath to the point of exhaustion, but one may stroll leisurely throughout the day without hesitation”
including the rabbinic interpretion of
Exo 18:30 “And thou shalt make them know the path they are to walk in and the work they are to do.” As meaning that the work they are to do are acts of saintliness which are “beyond the measure of the law”. (R. Elazar)
ONE MAY TRAVEL ON THE SABBATH
Post #189 Clear confronted dybmh with a list of different sorts of work in post #171 , including the Jewish rule from the Tosefta that says “
“One may not run on the Sabbath to the point of exhaustion, but one may stroll leisurely throughout the day without hesitation”
including the rabbinic interpretion of Exo 18:30 “And thou shalt make them know the path they are to walk in and the work they are to do.” As meaning that the work they are to do are acts of saintliness which are “beyond the measure of the law”. (R. Elazar)
dybmh concludes that certain work CAN be done.
DYBMH also discards the "problem" about traveling.
Ok, I'm happy to discard the problem about Traveling.
DYBMH now agrees work may be done, but "not for our own glory"
Yes, but not for our own self glorification...
After discussing the fact that since the Glory of God and accomplishing the atonement which God sent the Messiah to accomplish always underlied the Messiahs desires, the misapplication of this criticism to the Messiah is put to rest. And we moved on to dybmhs 2nd criticism of the Jewish Messiah.
REGARDING DYBMHs #2 CRITICISM OF THE MESSIAH
Desecration of Shabbos, not delighting in it.
If he is always doing the work of God, then there is no difference between weekday and The Day of Rest. That is erasing Shabbos.
In Post #198 Clear pointed out the seemingly desperate nature of this criticism, pointing out that that
honoring God every single minute of every day does in no way “erases the Sabbath.”
Instead, it brings the elevating nature of Sabbath worship into the life and habits of the person who commits to God completely.
VALUING MAN MADE TRADITIONS ABOVE AUTHENTIC, TRUE TORAH AND PROPER APPLICATION OF GODS LAWS
It was pointed out that readers may see inside such misdirected criticisms, an underlying motive to find a fault in
anything one can in order to justify rejecting the Jewish Messiah and keep ones’ man made traditions instead. If this is correct, then what one is seeing is one method by which the man-made traditions and interpretations of the Pharisees and Rabbis were valued beyond and above the actual Torah.
Indeed, this was intent of the rule of the Pharisees that said : “It is more culpable to teach contrary to the precepts of the scribes, than contrary to the Thorah itself.” (Sanhedrin xi.3a)
To the Jews who recognized the Messiah understood that he did not come to destroy authentic and true Torah, but to show them how to live by authentic and true Torah. The Messiah told them as much in
Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
Still, in view of the Sanhedrin rule that placed the precepts of the scribes above that of the Laws of God, one could expect that the pharisees and rabbis would come up with
any excuse to avoid admitting the message God had sent the Messiah to teach the authentic Torah and help rid them of their traditions and religious posturings which had been applied to Torah instead.
This criticism that the messiahs principle of ALWAYS doing the work of God is “erasing Shabbos” reminds me of the ancient religious posturing against the messiah. It is an attempt to find fault where there is none. In Religious conviction, all may honor God every single minute of every single day without any fear of "erasing" the Sabbath.
THE "SILLINESS" OF MAN MADE TRADITIONS COMPARED TO AUTHENTIC MORAL LAWS FROM GOD
However, there does not appear to be any common ground between us when it relates to Halacha. You deem it silly, it's perfectly natural to feel that way. I have no reason to try to convince you otherwise.
Yes they are silly in a lot of ways, but that doesn't change whether or not they are sins. If "silly" is the benchmark, then you win, it's silly.
I very much agree that many of the man made traditions that the early Jews had adopted were very silly. The dictionary definition of “Silly” means “
having or showing a lack of common sense or judgment; absurd and foolish.” The fact that these man made religious traditions show a lack of common sense, lack of judgment, are absurd and foolish does NOT make non-observance of them “sins”. That is yet another silly claim.
In religion, GOD is the one who makes laws which, when disobeyed, are "sins". Man often make poor laws, such as the laws in Germany in the 1940s that made it unlawful not to turn in a Jew.
Disobeying that law was NOT a sin. One would HOPE that people would have disobeyed that specific law.
Man made laws and traditions are not the same as a Moral law that originates from God. The fact that you can so easily conflate the two is strange and difficult to understand.
Having seen that your first two criticisms of the Messiah were meritless, do you see any point going on with your other five mischaracterizations?
Your criticism #3 of the Messiah was :
Desecration of G-d, arguing about halacha in public with Judges.
Regarding your concern that you might have offended me, please be at peace on this. You have not offended me.
Clear
τωφυνεσιω
) the consensus reading of "favour/grace/acceptable" rather than "will". (Which is unfortunate!)