Jordanian court has begun blasphemy proceedings against Danish artist Kurt Westergaard

[HiddenDjinn]

where did i say that the faith of judaism teaches to bomb mosques or that all jews are accountable for what those that bombed the mosques did?

When you excused the desecration of Jewish symbols.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

eselam,
I'll make a deal with you: I'll show Islam the same respect that Islam shows Judaism(i.e. none whatsoever.)

 

[Gharib]

eselam,
I'll make a deal with you: I'll show Islam the same respect that Islam shows Judaism(i.e. none whatsoever.)

islam does show respect to judaism, but i think judaism doesn't show any to islam. if you think i'm wrong please do post verses from the Torah to support your claims.

 

[Gharib]

Ok, you show me one.

thanks for ignoring it

They did.
Saladin DID kill the Jews of Jerusalem, Maybe you just conveniently forgot.
Something Muslims regularly ignore.

history from both the muslim and non-muslim side disagrees with you.

Show me where Islam as a whole has followed that particular teaching. They don't, but when called on their imperialist and totalitarian ways, Muslims like you point that ignored teaching out. Hypocrite much?

are you saying we don't obey that rule? in that case you are implying that we hate or want to kill jews for religious purposes when all that time our religion says not to do so. the reason why a muslim would hate jews and israel is because of their crimes against innocent people.

 

[Meow Mix]

where did i say that the faith of judaism teaches to bomb mosques or that all jews are accountable for what those that bombed the mosques did?

I'm confused, didn't you say that it was permissible for the mujahideen to paint Jewish symbols on a donkey?

Here's what I don't understand: you say it's okay for these men to mock Judaism because of the actions of a few people (who happened to be Jews/Israeli) blowing up a mosque. It's okay for them to put a JEWISH symbol on a donkey and thus mock the ENTIRE Jewish faith -- according to you.

But if someone puts an ISLAMIC symbol to shame for the same reasoning -- say, by "responding" to the actions of a few people who happen to be Muslim -- you cry out demanding punishment for them.

I am having a very, very difficult time understanding your reasoning. Please help me. Why can these men mock Jewish symbols (which mock the ENTIRE FAITH of Judaism, not just those guilty of blowing up mosques!), but someone else can't mock an Islamic symbol in retaliation for, say, Muslims bombing a synogogue?

 

[Meow Mix]

Tell me how these scenarios are different also:

(1) Muslims angry over Israelis blowing up a mosque, so they mock entire Jewish faith by putting their symbols on a donkey.

(2) Muslims angry over American bombs killing civilians, so they mock entire American nation by burning American flag. (Mocking even those who do NOT support the war, like myself!)

(3) American angry over 9/11 attacks killing civilians, so they mock Al Qaeda by burning a Quran and/or, say, drawing Mohammed on a donkey.

Ok, what's the difference between (1), (2), and (3)? I'm guessing you think (1) and (2) are justified (I'm not sure, just guessing from how this conversation has gone so far) but I bet you will say (3) is not justified.

Well, why not? What's the difference...?

 

[Rakhel]

islam does show respect to judaism, but i think judaism doesn't show any to islam. if you think i'm wrong please do post verses from the Torah to support your claims.

Islam didn't exist when the Torah was written. There is no need to prove that with Torah verses.
I will direct you, however, to the numerous Jewish-led interfaith committees in the United States. In fact there is one such interfaith committee in every major Jewish community. Including New York, which has one in each borough. So we actually have 5 committees here, and we always include a local imam.

 

[Meow Mix]

Islam didn't exist when the Torah was written. There is no need to prove that with Torah verses.
I will direct you, however, to the numerous Jewish-led interfaith committees in the United States. In fact there is one such interfaith committee in every major Jewish community. Including New York, which has one in each borough. So we actually have 5 committees here, and we always include a local imam.

When that nutjob in Florida was going to burn Qurans a while back we had a candlelight vigil at the local park. My town is a college town so we literally have all kinds here.

We read mostly from the Quran but also included bits from the Bible, Torah, and I think some Hindu texts (I don't know what they're called, sorry!).

I don't know if a poll was taken but it was a very even mix of all religions *including* a lot of Jews who came out to peacefully demonstrate against burning the Quran in Florida. (Hell, I was there and I'm an atheist!)

 

[Gharib]

I'm confused, didn't you say that it was permissible for the mujahideen to paint Jewish symbols on a donkey?

yes i did say that. if those that blew up the mosques were jews.

Here's what I don't understand: you say it's okay for these men to mock Judaism because of the actions of a few people (who happened to be Jews/Israeli) blowing up a mosque. It's okay for them to put a JEWISH symbol on a donkey and thus mock the ENTIRE Jewish faith -- according to you.

i never said anything about mocking the entire jewish faith, show me where i did.

But if someone puts an ISLAMIC symbol to shame for the same reasoning -- say, by "responding" to the actions of a few people who happen to be Muslim -- you cry out demanding punishment for them.

the cartoons where not a response to what muslims have done, they were just a provocation by a low life, as lunakilo has stated.

I am having a very, very difficult time understanding your reasoning. Please help me. Why can these men mock Jewish symbols (which mock the ENTIRE FAITH of Judaism, not just those guilty of blowing up mosques!), but someone else can't mock an Islamic symbol in retaliation for, say, Muslims bombing a synogogue?

where did i say that it is ok for muslims to mock the entire jewish faith for what some jews did? how do you know their mocking wasn't just directed at those men only?

if muslims bomb a synagouge then jews have every right to react. in the Qur'an, a verse says to not offend other people about their faiths so that they don't do the same to us. if people offend us muslims for our actions towards their beliefs, then muslims must be punished for going against the qur'an.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

eselam,
I don't know whether to say "Here's your sign" or "Bless your heart." Can another Southerner help me on this one?

 

[Meow Mix]

if muslims bomb a synagouge then jews have every right to react. in the Qur'an, a verse says to not offend other people about their faiths so that they don't do the same to us. if people offend us muslims for our actions towards their beliefs, then muslims must be punished for going against the qur'an.

Okay, please answer this question then:

What if an American puts an image of Mohammed on a donkey and says, "This is specifically in retaliation against Al Qaeda and not directed towards other Muslims at large."

...are they justified?

If not, why not? If those men are able to paint a Jewish symbol on a donkey in specific retaliation just against the Jews that blew up a mosque, then can an American paint Mohammed on a donkey specifically against Al Qaeda and be justified?

 

[England my lionheart]

the question you should be asking is should the muslims kill all the americans for their killings of innocent muslims.

Funny that all Muslims killed happen to be innocent,what about the people in the Twin Towers were they innocent or guilty? ,seems to me that some followers of Islam overeact to the extreme.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

the cartoons where not a response to what muslims have done, they were just a provocation by a low life, as lunakilo has stated.

You continue to state this based on what someone else has said. Even though lunakilo has made it clear that it was her opinion, you continue to hide behind her opinion as though that gives your argument some validity. Why do you stubbornly refuse to read what the Danish cartoonist himself had to say about what his intentions were? You look like you already made up your mind regarding this case. Without knowing the facts yourself, what you are doing is tantamount to falsely accusing someone. Isn't accusing a person without knowing the facts a false accusation? Isn't false accusation against the quran?
Isn't it ironic that you are accusing him of falsely attacking the quran and muslim honor?

 

[Kerr]

Funny that all Muslims killed happen to be innocent,what about the people in the Twin Towers were they innocent or guilty? ,seems to me that some followers of Islam overeact to the extreme.

He said killing innocent muslims. Not all muslims are innocent, so I guess he was just referring to the ones that was. In either case, Meow Mix did have a good point. To burn an american flag can without a doubt be regarded as a provocation and if a Jordanian court can trial this guy who made a picture then an american court can do the same for the muslims who has been burning american flags.

Personally I find both cases to be silly and pointless. But the point remains, if provocations are that bad then it cannot go just one way.

And killing innocent muslims, well, that is war for you. Innocent people die. This is one of the reasons I don´t like wars. Wouldn´t the world be much better if we all used words instead of guns?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Believe me, I see eselam's point. A lot more innocent muslims are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday by the occupying western forces than were killed in the terrorist attacks, but that is no reason to irrationally lash out against all westerners.

 

[Kerr]

Believe me, I see eselam's point. A lot more innocent muslims are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday by the occupying western forces than were killed in the terrorist attacks, but that is no reason to irrationally lash out against all westerners.

Yeah, I agree.

 

[beenie]

I'm confused, didn't you say that it was permissible for the mujahideen to paint Jewish symbols on a donkey?

Here's what I don't understand: you say it's okay for these men to mock Judaism because of the actions of a few people (who happened to be Jews/Israeli) blowing up a mosque. It's okay for them to put a JEWISH symbol on a donkey and thus mock the ENTIRE Jewish faith -- according to you.

But if someone puts an ISLAMIC symbol to shame for the same reasoning -- say, by "responding" to the actions of a few people who happen to be Muslim -- you cry out demanding punishment for them.

I am having a very, very difficult time understanding your reasoning. Please help me. Why can these men mock Jewish symbols (which mock the ENTIRE FAITH of Judaism, not just those guilty of blowing up mosques!), but someone else can't mock an Islamic symbol in retaliation for, say, Muslims bombing a synogogue?

Tell me how these scenarios are different also:

(1) Muslims angry over Israelis blowing up a mosque, so they mock entire Jewish faith by putting their symbols on a donkey.

(2) Muslims angry over American bombs killing civilians, so they mock entire American nation by burning American flag. (Mocking even those who do NOT support the war, like myself!)

(3) American angry over 9/11 attacks killing civilians, so they mock Al Qaeda by burning a Quran and/or, say, drawing Mohammed on a donkey.

Ok, what's the difference between (1), (2), and (3)? I'm guessing you think (1) and (2) are justified (I'm not sure, just guessing from how this conversation has gone so far) but I bet you will say (3) is not justified.

Well, why not? What's the difference...?

these are very good questions. how can that photo with the donkey NOT be a direct insult to Judaism? Israel should start proceedings against those people.

Believe me, I see eselam's point. A lot more innocent muslims are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday by the occupying western forces than were killed in the terrorist attacks, but that is no reason to irrationally lash out against all westerners.

no doubt this is true, and if esalem could stay on this point, he would fare far better in this debate.

 

[kai]

Believe me, I see eselam's point.

A lot more innocent muslims are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday by the occupying western forces than were killed in the terrorist attacks

, but that is no reason to irrationally lash out against all westerners.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Do you have a source for that?

I thought that was obvious, but let me see if I can find a few.

 

[beenie]

i disagree, alcohol is forbiden for us to drink and produce, but that law doesn't apply to a non-muslim. their drinking of alcohol is different to them killing a muslim, or some other crime that is directed at or is a personal attack on muslims.

and drawing images of the Prophet being illegal doesn't apply to non-Muslims either. eselam, i don't like this action either, but you can't pick and choose which ISLAMIC laws apply to non-Muslims. had a MUSLIM depicted the Prophet in an insulting way, we'd have a whole different ballgame.

muslims in denamark were affected by his actions, even if Jordan should have no say in this as many are arguing then the muslims (islamic society of denmark) living in denmark should be given their rights to put him on trial.

again, how can you apply this Islamic law to NON-MUSLIMS?

so would you rather now see jordan at war with denmark as a result oh his provocation or would you rather see him punished for his actions? if the jordanian court finds him guilty and the government wants to punish him but denmark wont hand him over then maybe a war might break out, i'm just saying.

Are you saying that Jordan would engage in a war with Denmark over one man? look, what he did was offensive, but what do the innocent citizens of Denmark have to do with this?

no my statement is correct. if it wasn't then we would have to change islam according to what 'people' want so that they might accept islam, however the way this works is, we present islam how it is and who ever accepts it will by the will of Allah and whoever doesn't then thats their problem. islam cannot be changed to suit us, we must change to fit in.

In order for someone to convert to Islam, they must see something in it that engages them. Therefore, Islam must sell itself to them first. THEN the person makes appropriate changes to become a practicing Muslim.