Jordanian court has begun blasphemy proceedings against Danish artist Kurt Westergaard

[Bismillah]

Agreed, and i have no doubt that Muslim on Muslim violence in Iraq has cause considerably more than 9/11 too but i digress so, I will leave you with esalam

Yeah 600,000 dead Iraqi children probably played some part in it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

first you must understand that most of the muslim world believes that the the 9/11 attack was done by the US governemnt itself,

I refuse to believe that most of the Muslim world are credulous fools.

as many experts from the US itself including those who built those towers have sated that it was impossible for the towers to collaps like that by a singe explosion of a plane without there being demolition bombs placed throughout the towers.

I was in university in 2001. My structural analysis professor had been part of the design team for the World Trade Centre. At the time, he was a young engineer; since then, he got his PhD and did decades of research in building structures, much of it on how structures fail.

The day of the attack, he set aside his normal lecture for a discussion on what might have happened and how it could have been avoided.

He was certainly not of the opinion that it was impossible for the collapse to have happened. In fact, he gave us a detailed description of what he thought the likely failure mode had been and why it was a problem in that type of building. When the official investigation into the attack released its findings, their explanation for what had happened matched what my prof had told us.

and about the donkey thing, if other jews are offended by what muslims are doing, then it is their people who attacked muslims that they should be angry at, not the muslims.

By the same token, shouldn't you be mad at the gang of kidnappers who provoked Westergaard to draw the cartoon, not Westergaard?

A well-known author had been unable to find an artist who would dare to illustrate a children’s book on Muhammad. A concert was stopped by radical Muslims who claimed that music is un-Islamic. The culmination came when a lecturer of Jewish descent at Copenhagen University was abducted in broad daylight by a gang of Arabs and severely beaten for having recited from the Koran as part of his course. Nothing similar had happened during the university’s more than 525 years of history.

Kurt Westergaard: Why I drew the Muhammad cartoon « Creeping Sharia

 

[kai]

Yeah 600,000 dead Iraqi children probably played some part in it.

Some part in what?

 

[Bismillah]

The desensitization and dehumanization of subsequent Iraqi generations.

 

[Flankerl]

yes i did say that. if those that blew up the mosques were jews.
i never said anything about mocking the entire jewish faith, show me where i did.

where did i say that it is ok for muslims to mock the entire jewish faith for what some jews did? how do you know their mocking wasn't just directed at those men only?

if muslims bomb a synagouge then jews have every right to react. in the Qur'an, a verse says to not offend other people about their faiths so that they don't do the same to us. if people offend us muslims for our actions towards their beliefs, then muslims must be punished for going against the qur'an.

For all of my life i've been a jew. I have never in my life taken the life of another person or even bombed a house of worship of any religion.

The tallit is a religious item of my religion, judaism. Its directly mentioned and described in the Torah.


The Magen David or Star of David has been a jewish symbol for over 1600 years. By the way thats older than your religion.

Then there is the poor donkey. I actually feel sorry for him since he lives a life sorrounded by people who are less intelligent than him. He is obviously meant as an insult because those poor animals arent seen in favor of many people for quite some time.


And of course the swastika. There are three possible explanations.

1. Its meant as the Hakenkreuz, the symbol of the NSDAP and therefore Nationalsocialism
2. Or its another jewish symbol, yeah there are some old synagogues who have swastikas as a decoration
3. Or those people blessed the donkey with an eastern asian swastika, though i wouldnt see a reason for that or that it would make any sense

As you might see there is only one positive possibility which is unfortunatly the least likely.


So overall its a direct insult at judaism and therefore jews.




I feel offended. But rest assure, i wont kill anyone because of it.
I wont burn flags because of it.
I wont declare an holy war because of it.

It just proves my point.

 

[Gharib]

I refuse to believe that most of the Muslim world are credulous fools.

you don't have anything to say?

I was in university in 2001. My structural analysis professor had been part of the design team for the World Trade Centre. At the time, he was a young engineer; since then, he got his PhD and did decades of research in building structures, much of it on how structures fail.

The day of the attack, he set aside his normal lecture for a discussion on what might have happened and how it could have been avoided.

He was certainly not of the opinion that it was impossible for the collapse to have happened. In fact, he gave us a detailed description of what he thought the likely failure mode had been and why it was a problem in that type of building. When the official investigation into the attack released its findings, their explanation for what had happened matched what my prof had told us.

[youtube]DzjzHjZddwA[/youtube]
YouTube - 9/11 - WTC7 Collapse IMPOSSIBLE Say Architects & Engineers

By the same token, shouldn't you be mad at the gang of kidnappers who provoked Westergaard to draw the cartoon, not Westergaard?


Kurt Westergaard: Why I drew the Muhammad cartoon « Creeping Sharia

from that same link:

When — in early September 2005 — I got a brief request from my editor at the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten to draw my impression of the prophet Muhammad, I had little idea of what I was getting myself into. To me it was just another day at the office. So I tried to do the best job I could, and I drew up a picture of the prophet with a bomb in his turban. I further inserted the quotation: “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet.”

that says nothing about him doing what he did in response to what some muslims did.

 

[Gharib]

For all of my life i've been a jew. I have never in my life taken the life of another person or even bombed a house of worship of any religion.

The tallit is a religious item of my religion, judaism. Its directly mentioned and described in the Torah.


The Magen David or Star of David has been a jewish symbol for over 1600 years. By the way thats older than your religion.

Then there is the poor donkey. I actually feel sorry for him since he lives a life sorrounded by people who are less intelligent than him. He is obviously meant as an insult because those poor animals arent seen in favor of many people for quite some time.


And of course the swastika. There are three possible explanations.

1. Its meant as the Hakenkreuz, the symbol of the NSDAP and therefore Nationalsocialism
2. Or its another jewish symbol, yeah there are some old synagogues who have swastikas as a decoration
3. Or those people blessed the donkey with an eastern asian swastika, though i wouldnt see a reason for that or that it would make any sense

As you might see there is only one positive possibility which is unfortunatly the least likely.


So overall its a direct insult at judaism and therefore jews.




I feel offended. But rest assure, i wont kill anyone because of it.
I wont burn flags because of it.
I wont declare an holy war because of it.

It just proves my point.

1. islam did not start with Muhamed meaning islam is not 1400 years old. thats one misconseption you have
2. just as other people have a right to offend the whole of islam for what SOME muslims do, then the same would happen to what jews or people of other faiths would do.
3. you should be angry at those who bombed the mosques, not at those who had their mosques blown up.

and none of this is directed in a way to offend you. thats just how it is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

that says nothing about him doing what he did in response to what some muslims did.

You missed it:

In this situation the paper felt that it was imperative to test whether we still enjoyed free speech — including the right to treat Islam, Muhammad and Muslims exactly as you would any other religion, prophet or group of believers. If we no longer had that right, one could only conclude that the country had succumbed to de facto sharia law.

That's the paragraph that follows the one I quoted in my last post.

He and the paper decided on this course of action in response to the actions of Muslims.

Was it a good response? I don't think it was, personally. However, this doesn't change the fact that it was the actions of Muslims that prompted the cartoonist and publisher to run those cartoons.

 

[Flankerl]

1. islam did not start with Muhamed meaning islam is not 1400 years old. thats one misconseption you have
2. just as other people have a right to offend the whole of islam for what SOME muslims do, then the same would happen to what jews or people of other faiths would do.
3. you should be angry at those who bombed the mosques, not at those who had their mosques blown up.

and none of this is directed in a way to offend you. thats just how it is.

1. I couldnt care less about what your replacement theology teaches. And its hardly the place for such a debate.
2. Thats ********. You dont offend all christians just because two idiots who happen to be christians beat you up.
3. If i would be angry at anyone who does something wrong i'd be stuck with africa forever before i could move on with the list.


Of course it is. I own some items with the Magen David and i even got a tallit. Its directed at jews like me.

 

[kai]

The desensitization and dehumanization of subsequent Iraqi generations.

Really! i dont see how children could do that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

[youtube]DzjzHjZddwA[/youtube]
YouTube - 9/11 - WTC7 Collapse IMPOSSIBLE Say Architects & Engineers

Heh... life imitates art: xkcd: Semicontrolled Demolition

"WTC 1 & 2 got destroyed by airplane impacts and fires, but WTC 7... that one was a controlled demolition that just happened to be perfectly timed with a terrorist attack." It's laughable.

Edit: ...and back to the topic of the thread: it wouldn't matter if every terrorist attack of the last 20 years was actually a huge American conspiracy and George W. Bush himself set off the explosives every time; it wouldn't make it okay for you to kill someone over a frickin' cartoon.

 

[Gharib]

You missed it:


That's the paragraph that follows the one I quoted in my last post.

He and the paper decided on this course of action in response to the actions of Muslims.

Was it a good response? I don't think it was, personally. However, this doesn't change the fact that it was the actions of Muslims that prompted the cartoonist and publisher to run those cartoons.

he can change his story to whatever he wants to justify his actions.

but what does making fun of our prophet have to do with what those groups of people did in his explanation? muslims are this or that for doing this and that?

why was it such an attack? he states himself that he wanted to know what would happen or how much freedom of expression he had so thats why he drew the prophet, again he states clearly why he drew the prophet and what he expected from muslims. so rather than keep blaming muslims for his provocation you are better of to blame him for making us react.

 

[Badran]

2. just as other people have a right to offend the whole of islam for what SOME muslims do, then the same would happen to what jews or people of other faiths would do.
3. you should be angry at those who bombed the mosques, not at those who had their mosques blown up.

So are you saying Muslims were justified in that case?

and none of this is directed in a way to offend you. thats just how it is.

The insult to Jews you mean?

If thats the case, why are you not saying that to yourself about the pictures of Muhammad (pbuh)?

 

[Gharib]

Heh... life imitates art: xkcd: Semicontrolled Demolition

"WTC 1 & 2 got destroyed by airplane impacts and fires, but WTC 7... that one was a controlled demolition that just happened to be perfectly timed with a terrorist attack." It's laughable.

Edit: ...and back to the topic of the thread, it wouldn't matter if every terrorist attack of the last 20 years was actually a huge American conspiracy and George W. Bush himself set off the explosives every time; it wouldn't make it okay for you to kill someone over a frickin' cartoon.

i don't get your post. what are you saying that the WTC 7 was a demolition and didn't collaps because of a soposed attack?

 

[Gharib]

So are you saying Muslims were justified in that case?

yes.

The insult to Jews you mean?

yes

If thats the case, why are you not saying that to yourself about the pictures of Muhammad (pbuh)?

his drawing had nothing to do with the actions of muslims, he just wanted to test the level of freedom os speech that he had in insulting religions and that why he did it. they are his own words, read the link 9-10ths Penguin provided.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

he can change his story to whatever he wants to justify his actions.

What makes you say he changed his story?

What story (cited, please) do you think he gave before?

but what does making fun of our prophet have to do with what those groups of people did in his explanation? muslims are this or that for doing this and that?

I think the thing you're not getting is that the cartoon wasn't aimed at all Muslims. It was intended to see, given that people's rights had already been infringed in the name of Islam, what rights were still in force.

why was it such an attack? he states himself that he wanted to know what would happen or how much freedom of expression he had so thats why he drew the prophet, again he states clearly why he drew the prophet and what he expected from muslims. so rather than keep blaming muslims for his provocation you are better of to blame him for making us react.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything; I'm just asking for a position from you that's free from hipocrisy.

If a cartoon justifies murder, then why doesn't a kidnapping and beating justify a cartoon?

 

[Gharib]

1. I couldnt care less about what your replacement theology teaches. And its hardly the place for such a debate.

then why did you say what you did about the age of islam?

2. Thats ********. You dont offend all christians just because two idiots who happen to be christians beat you up.

thats right i would offend only the two christians that beat me up, so then why are you offended by muslims who offended the jews that blew up the mosques?

3. If i would be angry at anyone who does something wrong i'd be stuck with africa forever before i could move on with the list.

do as you wish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

i don't get your post. what are you saying that the WTC 7 was a demolition and didn't collaps because of a soposed attack?

No, I'm not. I'm saying that this is what the Truther position has become once everyone realized that their claims about WTC 1 and 2 were demonstrably false.

They can't make their claims about WTC 1 and WTC 2 any more without being laughed out of the room, so now they stick to WTC 7. However, the elephant in the Truther room is that WTC 1 and WTC 2 (and WTC 7 if you look at the evidence, but they gloss over this because it's not as well known) obviously got knocked down as a result of the plane impacts.

This leaves them with this absurd situation where WTC 1 and WTC 2 were taken down by the planes, but for some strange reason, "conspirators" wired up WTC 7 - and apparently not any of the other buildings - for a controlled demolition to happen at precisely the same time.

Frankly, I have a really hard time with the idea that people can take this stuff seriously. Still, I have to believe that people do, because here you are, apparently sincere.

But back to the topic at hand: why does any of this matter? Regardless of whatever crazy conspiracy theory you personally hold, you do acknowledge that many, many Americans do believe (rightly, IMO) that Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

 

[Badran]

yes.

What do you mean yes?

Did all Jews participate in the actions you referred to? No.

Did Muslims insult a Jewish symbol in general? Yes.

Did they at least apologize and say they weren't aiming that at Jews in general?

his drawing had nothing to do with the actions of muslims, he just wanted to test the level of freedom os speech that he had in insulting religions and that why he did it. they are his own words, read the link 9-10ths Penguin provided.

I'm hearing too many conflicting things about what was his aim and intentions, so i will refrain from making any judgments. However forget about him then, what if its another person who drew the prophet and was directing that at radical Muslims, will you be okay with that?

 

[England my lionheart]

the US bombed the towers. whats your point?

:areyoucra do you honestly believe that,i mean really :sarcastic