Jordanian court has begun blasphemy proceedings against Danish artist Kurt Westergaard

[9-10ths_Penguin]

then why did you say his position was due to what muslims had done?

Because of what certain Muslims had done in the name of Islam, such as disrupt public events and carry out at least one beating, he and his publisher worried that their right to free speech was now curtailed. To see if this was the case, they published the cartoon.

i disagree.

So is the Shahadah a greater symbol than the Star of David? Is a hijab more important than a tallit?

Or are you just expressing a preference for your own religion?

incorrect, please read my posts. i have said that if non-muslims offend muslims based on the actions of some muslims then they have a right to that since the Qur'an condemns muslims to mock other faiths so that they do not do the same to us, but if they do it to us as a result of what we did, we have no right to punish them as it is our falt to begin with.

So you've conceded that the cartoons were justified? Strange, given your argument, but okay.

that was a different point. you were saying that he should not be punished because of his freedom of speech, so i said why weren't they allowed to kill him because of their freedom of religion. i was arguing to point out that freedom of religion is advertised yet at the same time one cannot hold any ground under it's name.

I think you misunderstood my argument.

In any case, freedom of religion is freedom of speech. The rights aren't in opposition because they're the same right.

 

[Gharib]

Well, I disagree with your assessment. The reason I'm disengaging is because I don't think you've thought everything through all the way and don't appear to be willing to. You continue to defend the defaming of the star of david on a donkey as being justified even though that mocks ALL of Judaism, but you cry unfair if someone mocks an Islamic symbol on a donkey because "it would be unfair to uninvolved Muslims."

And you don't see the hypocrisy in this? It's literally unbelievable to me. That's why I'm withdrawing; but again, we can have pleasant conversation elsewhere, friend.

i just answered those questions. but if you still think that about me after reading those posts then don't expect me to say that people are free to insult islam so long as they show a flag that says freedom or speech.

 

[waitasec]

so if a guy in country A presses the red button to launch a nuke over country B for no reason can country B put him on trial and even punish him?

wait, are you equating freedom of speech with nuclear war?

i suggest those that have a problem with what he did need to grow up and realize...peoples feelings get hurt all the time, get used to it, it's a sign of maturity to move not by reacting with infantile type tantrums based on insecurity...

get over yourselves and focus on more important topics...
world hunger for example...

 

[Vendetta]

I don't see why people are continually questioning esalem. He obviously has biased views that are contradictory to his faith, and hypocritical.

 

[Gharib]

Because of what certain Muslims had done in the name of Islam, such as disrupt public events and carry out at least one beating, he and his publisher worried that their right to free speech was now curtailed. To see if this was the case, they published the cartoon.

so why was it a cartoon of the prophet which included all muslims and not something that included those groups. and as for the beating the article says they were arabs and not muslims, arabs don't represent islam.
his drawings were a provocation of muslim reaction around the world for what some muslims had done which other muslims are against.

So is the Shahadah a greater symbol than the Star of David? Is a hijab more important than a tallit?

i never argued about this.

Or are you just expressing a preference for your own religion?

no, if muslims are wrong then i would not back them up. it is unislamic to do so. and i would change my opinion if any hard fact was braught forward.

So you've conceded that the cartoons were justified? Strange, given your argument, but okay.

i have done no such thing. but if you want to believe that then it's your choice.

I think you misunderstood my argument.

In any case, freedom of religion is freedom of speech. The rights aren't in opposition because they're the same right.

freedom of religion is freedom from being ridiculed about ones beliefs or being mocked for ones beliefs, yet freedom of speech seems to break that law and then when justice is saught the freedom of speech line is mentioned.

 

[waitasec]

he's being charged with crimes of blasphemy...against whom? some ideal of a long dead prophet? really? now what purpose does this serve...pride?
this is a complete farce...
an embarrassment to humanity....if god was offended by this then god needs to grow up and realize he's much much bigger than this...

 

[Flankerl]

right, you didn't like my reply. no worries.

Its worse, i dont care about what your religion teaches in this example.

i don't understand what you are saying. if you don't mind explaining then i will answer it, is it something worth replying to?

I say you offend me. Roger?

So i could use the quran as toilet paper while claiming that its directed at you. Roger?

By your logic that should be ok and no other muslim should feel offended. Roger?

whats with this statement? didn't i say before that muslims must respect jews and christians? why are you degrading yourself and your faith? whats your point?

Hm well by my religion it isnt even degrading. HaSatan is a true angel under the command of HaShem who tests our faith. Which makes him quite an important and good angel.

But actually it was aimed at a rather prominent piece of antisemitism in christianity which also found its way into another religion or better culture. But that would be really offtopic.

 

[McBell]

i just answered those questions. but if you still think that about me after reading those posts then don't expect me to say that people are free to insult islam so long as they show a flag that says freedom or speech.

What I find most interesting is how you are doing a much better job insulting Islam than the cartoons you whine so much about.

However, I seriously doubt that you can even possibly come to understand what I mean.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

so why was it a cartoon of the prophet which included all muslims and not something that included those groups.

Why don't you ask the donkey?

and as for the beating the article says they were arabs and not muslims, arabs don't represent islam.

"They were Arabs and not Muslims"... so Arabs can't be Muslim?
"Arabs don't represent Islam"... they were certainly purporting to be representatives of Islam.

BTW ... wasn't Muhammad an Arab?

his drawings were a provocation of muslim reaction around the world for what some muslims had done which other muslims are against.

So? Was he provoked by Muslims or not?

i never argued about this.

I know; I was just grasping at straws to figure out some way that your statement wouldn't be hypocritical.

no, if muslims are wrong then i would not back them up. it is unislamic to do so. and i would change my opinion if any hard fact was braught forward.

So... were those Muslims who beat up the lecturer wrong? Were the men who conspired to kill Westergaard wrong?

i have done no such thing. but if you want to believe that then it's your choice.

You've given an argument that implies it. You can choose to accept the implication, retract the argument, or take a hypocritical position.

freedom of religion is freedom from being ridiculed about ones beliefs or being mocked for ones beliefs,

No, it's not.

It's the freedom for you to believe as you wish and worship as you wish without being prevented from doing so, and it's the freedom not to be forced to worship in a way you disagree with. Ridicule doesn't prevent you from exercising your faith.

 

[Revoltingest]

[youtube]DzjzHjZddwA[/youtube]
YouTube - 9/11 - WTC7 Collapse IMPOSSIBLE Say Architects & Engineers

OK....as soon this guy starts going on about the "melting point of steel", I can see that he's no structural engineer....or any kind of real engineer.
Steel structures don't fail by melting, but rather at much lower temperatures due to "creep". He also places importance on the great weight of the
buildings. The mass of each floor is actually why they failed so easily, the kinetic energy of one falling floor dislodging the floor beneath in sequence.
I've posted about "pancaking" of floors before, so this is old stuff.

Funny, isn't it, that he doesn't name the 1000 engineers who signed the supposed document supporting demolition by explosives?
As some wag of a poster remarked, it was "demolition by airplane".

 

[Looncall]

freedom of religion is freedom from being ridiculed about ones beliefs or being mocked for ones beliefs, yet freedom of speech seems to break that law and then when justice is saught the freedom of speech line is mentioned.

If you would like to escape ridicule and mockery for your beliefs, you merely need to produce solid evidence for the truth of your beliefs. Otherwise, they are fair game for ridicule and mockery.

Remember, those who are not followers of a religion have no duty of respect towards it. Not following a religion means considering it to be a pack of lies.

 

[waitasec]

freedom of religion is freedom from being ridiculed about ones beliefs or being mocked for ones beliefs,

wrong...

freedom of religion is your right to your religion...for better or for worse.
no one said following your religion will be easy when dealing with the real world
you are attaching a controlling factor into this...you cannot control what people think of your religion, you cannot control what people say about your religion.
so far you have depicted islam as a very insecure religion for the simple fact of wanting to control how people should express their feelings about it.

 

[beenie]

so far you have depicted islam as a very insecure religion for the simple fact of wanting to control how people should express their feelings about it.

i have to agree here. Islam can certainly survive a cartoon, and I'm done thinking about it.

eselam, do Jordanians/SOME Muslims feel the need to punish Westergaard because his depiction of our Prophet will change OUR opinion? It won't.

How will we be better respected as an Ummah:

a) take the high ground, let it go and continue to do good deeds and contribute positively to society. a public statement expressing our dislike of his cartoon is a decent idea...use words!

or,

b) seek to punish Westergaard and waste time and energy, showing him and the world that our religion is so fragile we must silence any opposition to it?

I have my preferred answer...

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

freedom of religion is freedom from being ridiculed about ones beliefs or being mocked for ones beliefs, yet freedom of speech seems to break that law and then when justice is saught the freedom of speech line is mentioned.

Wrong! Freedom of religion guarantees you are free to practice your religion and express your views about your religion/beliefs. Others are free to express their views about your religion or indeed anything they please. Freedom of religion is free speech.

 

[Gharib]

If you would like to escape ridicule and mockery for your beliefs, you merely need to produce solid evidence for the truth of your beliefs. Otherwise, they are fair game for ridicule and mockery.

Remember, those who are not followers of a religion have no duty of respect towards it. Not following a religion means considering it to be a pack of lies.

then just because of that few people all others must be mocked who have beliefs. what a nice system to live by.

 

[Gharib]

wait, are you equating freedom of speech with nuclear war?

once again, no answer to my question.

i suggest those that have a problem with what he did need to grow up and realize...peoples feelings get hurt all the time, get used to it, it's a sign of maturity to move not by reacting with infantile type tantrums based on insecurity...

thats just your opinion, opinions aren't facts.

get over yourselves and focus on more important topics...
world hunger for example...

it would be better to say it is understandable of muslims to be angry because low lives like that man should focus on other important topics like world hunger rather than insult people.

 

[Gharib]

I don't see why people are continually questioning esalem. He obviously has biased views that are contradictory to his faith, and hypocritical.

thats it?

 

[Gharib]

he's being charged with crimes of blasphemy...against whom? some ideal of a long dead prophet? really? now what purpose does this serve...pride?
this is a complete farce...
an embarrassment to humanity....if god was offended by this then god needs to grow up and realize he's much much bigger than this...

who here has argued that God got offended by this?

 

[Gharib]

OK....as soon this guy starts going on about the "melting point of steel", I can see that he's no structural engineer....or any kind of real engineer.
Steel structures don't fail by melting, but rather at much lower temperatures due to "creep". He also places importance on the great weight of the
buildings. The mass of each floor is actually why they failed so easily, the kinetic energy of one falling floor dislodging the floor beneath in sequence.
I've posted about "pancaking" of floors before, so this is old stuff.

Funny, isn't it, that he doesn't name the 1000 engineers who signed the supposed document supporting demolition by explosives?
As some wag of a poster remarked, it was "demolition by airplane".

so by your logic, the empire state building should have come down too in the 70's i think it was, when that plane flew into it. and it burned for much longer than the WTC. why didn't the ESB come down?

 

[Gharib]

What I find most interesting is how you are doing a much better job insulting Islam than the cartoons you whine so much about.

However, I seriously doubt that you can even possibly come to understand what I mean.

wow, you asked a question and amazingly you also answered it. well done A+ to you.