Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

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POST THREE OF SIX


[FONT=&quot]"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (1 Enoch 46:1-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is the testimony of Old Testament Enoch, it is the testimony of New testament Diogenes. It is the testimony of Joseph Smith. Though scholars’ models are rapidly moving in that direction, it was not the testimony of 18th century Christianity.

The mounting historical parallels between the LDS restoration and the ancient teachings regarding the plan of salvation and the atonement continue even in discrete details the ancients taught. For example:


3) The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge (Joseph Smith)
The ancient texts form a coherent model for the relationship of these various spirits of men, of angels, and of the Pre-creation Jesus to the “Father of Spirits” as they called “The Lord God”. For examples:


A: The physical creation was accomplished in order to allow men to advance in knowledge:
Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles&#8221 out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand&#8221 to Administrate over this material creation of an earth which he will populate with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

For example : The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that the plan is the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” He counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it is his plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283). The Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : “...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process: “And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1). From chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed :[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Multiple principles paralleling restorational theology are touched upon just in these references alone : a return to a material creation from matter and not from “nothing” (ex-nihilo creation); creation council themes (the current scholars model); The close association of the Father and Son as separate individuals; the delegation of authority and administration to the son; the material creation accomplished by the son, etc, etc. The parallels to restorational theology are many and they run deep.

B. The Administrative organization was accomplished to allow men to advance in knowledge:

It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge. He says [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. 2 Baruch 21:16-17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spirits were given a choice : In the ancient accounts, the spirits of men were allowed to choose to take part in this plan, just as they are allowed to choose what they will do in this life. I’ll skip the “war in heaven” and the controversy with Lucifer that was a central part of it and simply mention that there were recalcitrant spirits of which the Jews said : “God had not chosen them from ancient eternity. Before they were created (in the body), he knew what they would do. “ (Geninza A+B 4Q266) “ still, even of the less valiant spirits they said :“he taught them through those anointed by the Holy Spirit…”. There were important principles underlying this fairness. For example, though God knows their nature, they needed to discover their own nature. God said : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘This is good for you, but that is bad’; ...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature.”... (2 enoch 30:15-16)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Even those who are to remain unrewarded, are to learn why they remained unrewarded. “It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the Law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding." (2 baruch 15:5-6).

This principle the ancient taught that “before he created them He knew their thoughts…”(geninza) is not just true of the wicked spirits, but it was also true of the good and valiant spirits as well. Jeremiah the prophet was told "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Thus, God’s planning extended not merely to such great roles as prophets, but in teaching his son’s the nature of the souls agreement to come to earth, Enoch taught his sons regarding the “covenant of God, while they are even in their mother’s womb....that even before any person was in his mother’s womb, individually a place I prepared for each soul, as well as a set of scales and a measurement......” As if to make sure his sons understand the import of this doctrine, Enoch repeats the same doctrine again in just a few lines: “For I am swearing to you, my children, that before any person existed, a place of judgment was prepared for him and the scale and the weight by means of which a person will be tested were prepared there ahead of time. " (2 enoch 49:1-3). Again, the ancient models are not only parallels to principles restored by Smith, but they undergird and support his claims that these were early theological principles.

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POST FOUR OF SIX

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As I become more familiar with base LDS doctrines, I find continuing historical and linguistic parallels that demonstrate not only that this is all ancient and original teaching, but that such teachings are a close match to what I am learning from a study of the LDS restoration to original doctrine. Again, a restoration to original doctrines is not just DIFFERENT than the more modern doctrines of the "churches of the In Between", but the ancient doctrines are simple and logical and they allow for an entirely different understanding of what God is doing with men. The LDS can, if they want, take any of these early texts and use them in their Sunday School lessons without a doctrinal ripple. They can do this because the doctrines are similar. I do not know of another Christian movement that can do this. The fact that the LDS can do this has profound historical and theological meaning. Many Christians simply claim that the early Judeo-Christian writings are simply “heretical” because the early Judeo-Christian texts seem so foreign to them. [/FONT]
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Since studying the LDS restoration of Ancient and precious things and offering my observations and comparisons to the ancient teachings of the Jews and Christians, I feel like we are necessarily skipping over deep and portentous doctrines, like a rock, skipping across the surface of deep doctrinal waters, touching only lightly upon a point here and there. We’re simply getting lightly splashed without experiencing the immersion that makes the doctrines and their value more apparent. I believe that one must “slow down” and “sink into” these things by serious pondering and study and ask for God’s help to understand them before the tremendous value of a restoration back to the ancient doctrines will be apparent. This cannot be done in the format of a forum, but the principles must be considered by the individual reader. To continue on with Smiths summary of Gods’ plan, Smith said regarding God :


4) “He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.“ - Joseph Smith

There are important principles underlying this statement : For example
1) Mortality is a time of INSTRUCTION and LEARNING
2) Specific knowledge is requisite to save us in the world of spirits
3) How is it that God teaches knowledge that will save us
4) The end result of Learning to live the principles that save us


1) Mortality is a time of INSTRUCTION and LEARNING

Thus, the ancient doctrine places mankind in the position of Students, who are to learn the principles God is trying to teach them. Thus Clement II teaches that “we are being trained by the present life” (2 clement 20:2) Thus Ignatius is correct to say to the Ephesians, “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience. (Ig-eph 3:1 The Apostle Peter’s protégé Clement taught that “through him [Christ] the Master [the Father] has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge”. New Testament Era Diogenes makes clear that without this “immortal knowledge”, there IS no basis for eternal life. He taught : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“But the tree of knowledge does not kill, on the contrary, disobedience kills. For it is not without significance that the scriptures record that God in the beginning planted a tree of knowledge and a tree of life in the midst of Paradise, thereby revealing that (eternal) life is through knowledge...For there is neither life without knowledge, nor sound knowledge without true life; therefore each tree stands planted near the other. (Diog 12:2-3)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is significant that early accounts call Eden’s tree of “knowledge”, the tree of “wisdom”. In Enoch’s vision of heaven he says :

“... And the tree of wisdom, of which one eats and knows great wisdom, (was among them)....This very thing is the tree of wisdom from which your old father and aged mother, they who are your precursors, ate and came to know wisdom; and (consequently) their eyes were opened...” (1Enoch 32:6) And, importantly, the type of wisdom that is gained, includes the type of moral knowledge man was sent here to learn (“there is no [eternal] life without knowledge”). This principle is far different in application and outcome as compared to the “easy believism” of “believe in Jesus and you are saved” interpretation arising since the reformation.


2) Specific knowledge is requisite to save us in the world of spirits

Not all TYPES of knowledge have equal value in learning principles that will bring us joy and harmony in the eternities. The ORDER in which we learn principles is important as well. For example, learning moral laws which underlie and support social harmony are more important than knowledge of how to wage successful war against one another. Learning how to hurt another person, before learning patience to control that knowledge will still not result in joy and harmony, but may result in sadness and disharmony.

When Clement taught that “through him the Master has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge”, he was speaking primarily of moral principles that support a more exalted and glorified existence (i.e. moral and social rules of living in joy and harmony in heaven).

For example: They ancient were taught to learn UNITY

“Focus on unity, for there is nothing better” (Polycarp 1:2). “...let there be one prayer, one petition, one mind, one hope, with love and blameless joy...let all of you run together as to one temple of God, as to one altar, to one Jesus Christ...” (Ignatius to the Magnesians 7:2) For example, when congregations achieved unity, Ignatius honors them : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the father, that all things might be harmonious in unity.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Ign to eph 5:1) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This was NOT taught simply to the Christians, but to the Jews as well. For example, in the Dead Sea Scroll “CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION” (1QS, 4Q, 5Q), the translators decided not to use the word “community” throughout the translation to describe this group, but rather they used one of the society’s most common self-designations: “YAHAD”, which means “unity”. It was after all, the moral ideal they sought to achieve and the word they used to describe themselves and their higher aspirations.

This is no different than the christian teaching “ Let there be nothing among you which is capable of dividing you, but be united ....with those who lead..” (Ign to Mag 6:2). The principle of UNITY and HARMONY were principles that ALL disciples were taught just as “ the archangels who are over the angels...harmonize all existence, heavenly and earthly...” (2nd Enoch 19:3). If spirits could NOT learn to overcome their undisciplined impulses, there could BE no harmony in heaven, or on earth). This was the pattern Jesus and the Apostles set. Just as Jesus was obedient to HIS Father, the church was to be obedient to their authorities. “Be subject to the Bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ in the flesh was to the Father, and as the apostles were to Christ and to the Father, that there might be unity, both physical and spiritual". (Ign to Mag 13:2).

The concept of obedience, and “unity” and “oneness” is woven throughout all the ancient texts. When a man “leaves his parents” he is to become “one” (unified) with his wife (Gen 2:24) to the point that Jesus says that the “man and his wife are no longer “twain” but are “one” flesh (matt 19:6). Jesus requests of his Father regarding his disciples that he had “given them the glory that you [the Lord God] gave me, that they may be one as we are one “(NIV jn 17:23). The same unity of which Jesus has with his Father, the disciples were also to achieve (and all the rest of us as far as we are able to emulate Jesus and the disciples). For example: Jesus prays in Jn 17:20, “I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.”,

If you remove the adherence to this principle of unity, the sociality in heaven cannot BE, nor REMAIN “unified” and “harmonious”. And all who live there MUST live this principle that God is attempting to teach man.
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POST FIVE OF SIX FOLLOWS

 

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POST FIVE OF SIX

[FONT=&quot]If the atonement is to bring men back to the presence of God, in a more exalted condition; able to live in a holy heaven, then the atonement must also have a mechanism to teach men to live the principles of a heavenly existence. The LDS restoration of these ancient teachings makes clear these ancient teachings regarding what God is doing with man and their relationship to the Atonement of our Savior, Jesus Christ.[/FONT]

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"He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits."- Joseph Smith

I believe that the LDS return to ancient principles of learning religious principles is important in understanding what God is doing with man, and man’s role and responsibility to the atonement. One may, for example, compare the later Christian theory that "Grace renders repentance obsolete" to the earliest Christian Doctrines regarding repentance. The ancient and authentic principle of repentance acts as a "reality check" to all modern theories and it is within the ancient model of repentance that mankind most efficiently achieves moral progress and improvement.

Repentance, as a true and authentic early Christian principle is often mis-characterized by those who do not understand it, or those wanting to discredit it. Repentance, as a process of "doing better" (and the process of change it entails) is not an "all or nothing" proposition. One of the earliest Christian documents, the Didache counsels : "If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect. But if you are not able, then do what you can." (Didache 6:2) Since we all are imperfect, we all "do what we can". The LDS seem to understand and correctly apply this concept to the ultimate goal of perfection as well as .

The early Christians taught that, however poorly we do it, we are meant to try to be more like God. For example: The very first thing Ignatius teaches the Christians in Ephesus (verse ONE) is "You are the imitators of God" (Ignatius 1:1). This is NOT a complicated principle and it never was. Diogenese teaches the Christians that [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"By loving him you will be an imitator of his goodness. And do not be surprised that a person can become an imitator of God; he can, if God is willing....But whoever takes upon himself his neighbor’s burden, whoever wishes to benefit another who is worse off in something in which he himself is better off, whoever provides to those in need things that he has received from God, and thus becomes a god to those who receive them, this one is an imitator of God." Diog 10:6) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We may "poorly" imitate God, yet still, we are to "imitate God" and be more like him. However, we cannot accomplish imitation without repentance, since, (as Clement taught the earliest Christian Saints), repentance was related to the ability to "...accept correction" and that "it unites us with the will of God" (1Clement 56:2).

Change and Repentance was not a new principle inaugurated by ancient Christians. Rather the Christians taught that "repentance [was] taught in all generations" (1st Clement 7:5-7) . Similarly, the LDS restoration of repentance back into its ancient context and usage in this process of learning to imitate God is important. It restores Repentance to its role in the process of understanding, and advancement and learning to be more like God. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In Hermas’ vision, the angel speaking to Hermas says "...I give understanding to all who repent. Or don’t you, think" he said, "that this very act of repentance is itself understanding? To repent, " he continued, "is great understanding. For the man who has sinned understands that he has done evil in the Lord’s presence, and the act which he committed enters his heart, and he repents and no longer does evil, but does good lavishly, and he humbles his own soul..." (Hermas 30:2) The ancient context was that Repentance, as a change of attitude, was NOT a punishment of self, but rather a process of acquiring knowledge, acquiring understanding; acquiring new attitudes and new and better habits of interaction. It is a blessing to men.

It is clear to the ancient Christians that a loving and patient God knows we will make mistakes in his process of "creating righteousness". Diogenes explains to the ancient Christians : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his Child, he permitted us during the former time to be carried away by undisciplined impulses as we desired, led astray by pleasures and lusts, not at all because he took delight in our sins, but because he was patient[/FONT][FONT=&quot] " (Diog 9:1) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is clear that God allows men to make mistakes, not because he approved of such behaviors, but because he never loses sight of his ultimate Goal of creating a moral being, having learned and mastered moral and social principles which render mankind capable of living in a social heaven. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Diogenes continues : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"...because he was creating the present season of righteousness, in order that we who in the former time were convicted by our own deeds as unworthy of (eternal) life... having clearly demonstrated our inability to enter the kingdom of God on our own, might be enabled to do so by God’s power.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Diog 9:1) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thus God is creating moral improvement by this process (and at the same time demonstrating our inabilities and the necessity of reliance on him for what we are unable to do).

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[FONT=&quot]The Jews also taught that God allows evil for the same reason, (i.e. because it serves Gods’ ultimate purposes). The Jews taught [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]" Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a persons endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages [of eternity]. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him until the day of the appointed visitation. (1QS, 4Q, 5Q "Jewish Charter") [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Though evil exists, it serves its purpose in HIS plan and he controls and appoints it’s limits. It is not "chess set theology" where God plays man and then punishes him for "bad moves", but rather, man is allowed his own choice and man appoints his own desires regarding evil.

The LDS have restored the ancient understanding that temporary evil IS a part of the plan as well as the temporary difficulties that result from it. This restoration does not change evil. But it explains it and its relationship to current difficulties and understanding of it allows us to react to it with greater wisdom and faith. This is important when individuals ask the inevitable questions : "Why me?", or "How long oh Lord?".
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This life is like "Enoch’s Bridge" that all must pass over. "Just as a bridge is laid across a river and everyone crosses over it, so a bridge is laid from the beginning of the entrance to it’s end, and the ministering angels go over it... (3rd enoch 22:1)" It is the similar answer to Ezra’s ancient question : "If the world had indeed been created for us, why do we not possess our world as an inheritance? " The ancient answer God gives Ezra is simply another description of Enoch’s bridge. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God explains that [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"There is a city built and set on a plain, and it is full of all good things; but the entrance to it is narrow and set in a precipitous place...and there is only one path... If now that city is given to a man for an inheritance, how will the heir receive his inheritance unless he passes through the danger set before him? ..."And so the entrances of this world were made narrow and sorrowful and toilsome; the are few and evil, full of dangers...But the entrances of the greater world are broad and save, and really yield the fruit of immortality. Therefore unless the living pass through the difficult and vain experiences, they can never receive those things that have been reserved for them..." (4th Ezra 7:3-25) [/FONT]
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POST SIX OF SIX

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From the beginning, the Judao-Christian texts describe a plan to place the spirits of men into bodies, give them knowledge and allow them to experience mortality with its various choices and let them exercise their own choice and preferences and then return them to that level of holiness they themselves chose. Since the resurrection is physical, the spirits are judged with their bodies (and not separately).[/FONT]
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From the beginning, the Judao-Christian texts describe a plan to place the spirits of men into bodies; to then give them knowledge and allow them to experience mortality with its various choices and let them exercise their own choice and preferences and then return them to that level of holiness they themselves choose. Since the resurrection is physical, the spirits are judged with their bodies (and not separately) as it says in the early Christian Adam and Eve text "So, the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it into the body, he also judges them as one."

Enoch, compares the judgment to a marketplace, where proper scales ensure justice so that "...on the day of the great judgment every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward. (2 Enoch 44:5) Thus the ancients taught a gradient of judgment according to a scale. Without this doctrine, (which some of later christianity abandoned), the "light switch" condemnation of modern Christianity cannot be made fair. Joseph Smith re-adoption of this ancient doctrine has profound implications. No one is damned because they did not accept Jesus, having not known about him; unbaptized babies are not kept from heaven; the Christian has no justification for personal pride or self-elevation above the atheist simply because he has “accepted Jesus”.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The ancient doctrine where all are punished and rewarded justly, according to their knowledge and understanding and intent and actions, etc , once re-adopted, restores fairness and justice to god’s Judgment.

The early christians taught regarding Heaven : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"... those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction[/FONT][FONT=&quot] between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundred fold, and those who bring forth sixty fold, and those who bring forth thirty fold : the first will be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the third will inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, "In my Father’s house there are many rooms"; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, the Son finally yielding his work to the Father, as it is also said by the apostle: "For he must reign until he puts all enemies under his feet" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 36:1-2) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The ancients taught that during the process of judgment, men will be resurrected and glorified according to "their own measure" (i.e. in a just and fair manner) and of those who’ve repented and have sincerely accepted the Atonement are made glorious and given a position of holiness and importance : For example, the jews taught that the righteous spirits and their : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"...bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together ....[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Geninza A+B 4Q) [/FONT]
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The ancient Christian teaching that men are to be "imitators" of God, reaches it’s culmination in the advancement of mankind who have become most like God in the judgment and resurrection. The Dead Sea Scroll "SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, (4Q, 11Q, Masada Fragment 367), describes the ancient Jewish teaching regarding those who are resurrected and glorified and who have fulfilled God’s plan for man’s destiny : [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]"For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, .... that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge….priests who draw near, ministers of the Presence[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the utterly holy King…His glory. Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies…They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council…the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes …who take their stand in the temples of the king… [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The early Christians and Jews are very descriptive of the destiny of those who actually do become successful "imitators" of God to the point of becoming more like God. i.e. "Godlike". For example: The jews of 4Q, 11Q, Masada were very descriptive in this regard : [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]"Praise the most high God, you who are exalted among all the wise divine beings. Let those who are holy among the godlike sanctify the glorious King, He who sanctifies by His holiness each of His holy ones. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings-His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]

As a historian, and as an adult convert to LDS theology, I simply cannot read any of the early documents without continually appreciating the almost seamless integration of base themes to LDS theology and, upon studying these earliest Judeo-Christian texts which are wonderfully objective historical data regarding early Christian theology, I cannot come up with a coherent, historically viable model as to how Joseph Smith could have restored such a great deal of early base theology so correctly without revelation. The ancient texts speak to the LDS theology and the LDS theology speak back to the earliest sacred texts. Both illuminate and explain each other.



I hope this quick gloss over what are actually deep and profound principles will allow the LDS readers as well, to realize the very deep strength of their position as it regards their base doctrines, as well as an appreciation for their connection to the earliest Judeo-Christian traditions. There is a VAST amount of early textual data that is quite objective in terms of showing that their base theology IS a restoration of early Judeo-Christian theology. I apologize for the length of these posts, but I shortened the points and glossed over many of the early texts.




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φυτζφυνεσε

 

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POST TWO OF SIX

[FONT=&quot]AN OVERVIEW OF SOME EARLY TRADITIONS AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I AM DESCRIBING[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Idea[/FONT][FONT=&quot], who is an LDS RF member, once quoted Joseph Smiths’ summarization of God’s plan surrounding the atonement in the most simple, yet profound terms. To this historian of peri-ce period Judeo-Christian, texts, it is an incredible summary of this vast area of historical science : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the “weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - Joseph Smith "[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
On the surface, the quote is so expansive that it is "too big a concept to handle". However, as I’ve broken Smiths statement down into smaller components and looked at it, it is completely consistent with the most ancient teachings regarding God, the Fathers, overall plan for man, in which the atonement is the central mechanism for making the plan work. For example :


1) "...God...finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory..." (Joseph Smith)
Though it ran counter to the prevalent Christian views of his age, Joseph Smith’s restoration of and return to the principle of the pre-mortal existence of the spirits of mankind and its attendant details, harkens back to the earliest testimonies and descriptions of the ancient scriptures and texts that describe the innumerable number of spirits existing in the beginning and what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". 1 En 14:23; In other parts of Enochs vision he testifies : "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1 Enoch 40:1-2)" God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth in the future according to these ancient Old Testament scriptures (Enoch IS in the eastern Old Testament). The restoration of and return to this early doctrine has deep and profound implications for Christian thought.


2) "...because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself..." (Joseph Smith)
The LDS return to the concept that God the Father created all things in concert with a great cosmic plan that originated and exists for the benefit of the spirits of mankind, speaks to the nature of God and his character and his motives and to our place within a logical and reasonable plan. This is different than Christian models that theorize God created man because God “was lonely” or because God “wanted other beings to worship him”. Joseph Smith’s model also parallels the early Judeo-Christian worldviews. In Smith’s model, God is not doing this for his own benefit, but for the benefit of mankind. “[/FONT]For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” (Moses 1:39).

[FONT=&quot]The ancient Jews taught that God had instituted a divine plan. This concept is interwoven into concepts that are stated repeatedly, such as "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)

The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these ancient descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement in the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Though ALL spirits existed in the beginning, they were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In this context Ignatius explains that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father.. (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Diogenes reaffirms the LDS models restoration of this ancient doctrine in Diogenes teaching us : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)

Ancient pre-creation council histories demonstrates that most of the spirits were joyous at having this opportunity to progress. For example the question God places to Job was not merely a rhetorical instruction, but a reminder of Jobs personal pre-creation theology. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Enoch says that he saw : " the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. ‘ Inside this ancient model, most of the spirits wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect. Consistent with further restored details of the Fathers plan, it is in reference to such a pre-creation council of spirits that Enoch testifies : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]" At that hour, that the Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, the Before-Time; even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. He will becomes a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles...All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him; they shall glorify; bless and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones...in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they may have life." (1 Enoch 48:1-7)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I might remind you that the pre-creation council model paralleling Smiths claim has only become the accepted model among scholars of the early documents within the last half century (after the discovery of many of the early Judeo-Christian libraries). It was quite antithetical to the Christian theory of his own day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Long before Diogenes bore his New Testament Era testimony, Old Testament Era Enoch had bore the SAME visionary testimony: In Enoch’s vision, he see’s pre-creation Jesus with the Father and asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]POST THREE OF SIX FOLLOWS[/FONT]

The problem is that you are using Enoch, and there is no proof that what it contains is true, or accurate, concerning the texts it is "expanding.".


For instance Enoch uses - Gen 6:2 The sons of God seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all they chose.


In Enoch these Sons of God are turned into angels - however there is no reason to assume such. The Hebrew were called Sons of God. The sons of Seth would be of the Godly line, as opposed to Cain's line, etc.


No angels or spirits needed.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

POST THREE OF SIX


[FONT=&quot]"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (1 Enoch 46:1-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is the testimony of Old Testament Enoch, it is the testimony of New testament Diogenes. It is the testimony of Joseph Smith. Though scholars’ models are rapidly moving in that direction, it was not the testimony of 18th century Christianity.

The mounting historical parallels between the LDS restoration and the ancient teachings regarding the plan of salvation and the atonement continue even in discrete details the ancients taught. For example:


3) The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge (Joseph Smith)
The ancient texts form a coherent model for the relationship of these various spirits of men, of angels, and of the Pre-creation Jesus to the “Father of Spirits” as they called “The Lord God”. For examples:


A: The physical creation was accomplished in order to allow men to advance in knowledge:
Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to Administrate over this material creation of an earth which he will populate with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

For example : The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that the plan is the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” He counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it is his plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283). The Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : “...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process: “And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1). From chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed :[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Multiple principles paralleling restorational theology are touched upon just in these references alone : a return to a material creation from matter and not from “nothing” (ex-nihilo creation); creation council themes (the current scholars model); The close association of the Father and Son as separate individuals; the delegation of authority and administration to the son; the material creation accomplished by the son, etc, etc. The parallels to restorational theology are many and they run deep.

B. The Administrative organization was accomplished to allow men to advance in knowledge:

It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge. He says [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. 2 Baruch 21:16-17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spirits were given a choice : In the ancient accounts, the spirits of men were allowed to choose to take part in this plan, just as they are allowed to choose what they will do in this life. I’ll skip the “war in heaven” and the controversy with Lucifer that was a central part of it and simply mention that there were recalcitrant spirits of which the Jews said : “God had not chosen them from ancient eternity. Before they were created (in the body), he knew what they would do. “ (Geninza A+B 4Q266) “ still, even of the less valiant spirits they said :“he taught them through those anointed by the Holy Spirit…”. There were important principles underlying this fairness. For example, though God knows their nature, they needed to discover their own nature. God said : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘This is good for you, but that is bad’; ...so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature.”... (2 enoch 30:15-16)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Even those who are to remain unrewarded, are to learn why they remained unrewarded. “It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the Law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding." (2 baruch 15:5-6).

This principle the ancient taught that “before he created them He knew their thoughts…”(geninza) is not just true of the wicked spirits, but it was also true of the good and valiant spirits as well. Jeremiah the prophet was told "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Thus, God’s planning extended not merely to such great roles as prophets, but in teaching his son’s the nature of the souls agreement to come to earth, Enoch taught his sons regarding the “covenant of God, while they are even in their mother’s womb....that even before any person was in his mother’s womb, individually a place I prepared for each soul, as well as a set of scales and a measurement......” As if to make sure his sons understand the import of this doctrine, Enoch repeats the same doctrine again in just a few lines: “For I am swearing to you, my children, that before any person existed, a place of judgment was prepared for him and the scale and the weight by means of which a person will be tested were prepared there ahead of time. " (2 enoch 49:1-3). Again, the ancient models are not only parallels to principles restored by Smith, but they undergird and support his claims that these were early theological principles.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

POST FOUR OF SIX FOLLOWS[/FONT]

Now you are using 2 and 3 Enoch.


2 Enoch is first century A.D. on.


3 Enoch uses materials from the Babylonian Talmud, so most from the fifth century A.D. on.


Material this late is obviously tainted material. This is obvious from the materials used to date them. They contain ideas from other sources.



*

 

[idea]

They are Mormons, so I wouldn't exactly call them unbiased. Plus, most of that list is from BYU....#justsaying

Everyone is biased towards one group or another ...#justsaying

 

[Nymphs]

Everyone is biased towards one group or another ...#justsaying

While that is semi-true, it doesn't negate the point that Mormons are trying to prove their believes true while scientists are just reporting the facts.

 

[McBell]

While that is semi-true, it doesn't negate the point that Mormons are trying to prove their believes true while scientists are just reporting the facts.

Nor does it negate the point that facts presented by the Mormon Church are still facts.

Yet you would dismiss facts simply because you dislike who presents them to you.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

There are many scientists who are also Mormons...
Mormon Scholars Testify » Blog Archive » Index by Specialty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR8qIrJcJh4

I'm curious to know how Moromon historians and apologists would explain the conclusive evidence that Native Americans are genetically descendants of East Asians, and not of Middle Eastern descent, as the Book of Mormon states.

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF FIVE


Ingledsva said in post 1326 : “The problem is that you are using Enoch, and there is no proof that what it contains is true, or accurate, concerning the texts it is "expanding.".

And in post # 1327 Ingledsva said : Now you are using 2 and 3 Enoch. 2 Enoch is first century A.D. on. 3 Enoch uses materials from the Babylonian Talmud, so most from the fifth century A.D. on. Material this late is obviously tainted material. This is obvious from the materials used to date them. They contain ideas from other sources.


[FONT=&quot]1)Regarding your complaint that one cannot prove the claims of religious texts to be true or accurate. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you remember my original post (#1299) my purpose was not to prove the claims within any religious text was true or accurate, but rather, that the LDS base claim to have restored early Judeo-Christian base doctrines is, indeed correct. The purpose of quoting from early Judeo-Christian texts was to support this specific claim. This claim is correct, true and accurate and I was simply offering objective textual information to support this very specific claim.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
2)Regarding your intimations that the original Enochian genre and material is from later centuries.
This is incorrect. You are quoting the dating for exant textual copies of enoch, rather than from the origin of Enochian literature. The old testament enochian literature existed before the New Testament, thus the New Testament writers quote from and refer to the Enochian literature. Multiple Enochs were found in the Old Testament Library in Qumran (sequestered approx. 70 c.e.). And an Enoch remains firmly inside the Eastern (Ethiopic) OLD TESTAMENT canon even nowadays.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3) Regarding your correct observation that the later Enochian literature is syncretic.
This is certainly correct, however this is also true of almost all sacred literature to some extent, including the Old and New Testaments. I’ve already pointed out for example, that the New Testament quotes and borrows from Enoch in multiple instances. For example, the writer of Jude quotes Enoch directly.[/FONT]

A SIMPLE HISTORICAL CONSIDERATION REGARDING ENOCHIAN LITERATURE

[FONT=&quot]The Enochian literature existed before the New Testament existed and it was incredibly influential in Judeo-Christian history. For example, it is obvious that early Christian, including those who wrote the New Testament had read the book of Enoch and used it in their writings. The great apocryphologist R.H. charles reminds us that "nearly all the writers of the New Testament were familiar with it, and were more or less influenced by it in thought and diction," and he reminds us further that "it is quoted as a genuine production of Enoch by St. Jude, and as Scripture by St. Barnabas. . . . With the earlier Fathers and Apologists it had all the weight of a canonical book."

In his initial study of Jewish Enoch, Charles quotes no less than 128 places in the New Testament where it is either quoted or influences a quote. The Enochian influence is so great that Charles declares that "The influence of I Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books taken together." He further lists some thirty passages in early orthodox Jewish and Christian writings in which the book of Enoch is mentioned specifically, plus numerous citations from the book that are found in the important Jewish apocalyptic writings of Jubilees, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Assumption of Moses, 2 Baruch, and 4 Ezra, and quotations from Enoch found in more than thirty Christian Patristic writers.

To these influences, we might add the tremendous and obvious wealth of Enoch lore contained in the Zohar. Even the Pistis Sophia, (an important literary link between sectaries in Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Palestinian Christianity and Judaism, claims to contain important material taken from "the two Books of Jeu which Enoch has written” Another quote from Pistis Sophia : “They should find the mysteries which are in the Book of Jeu which I caused Enoch to write in Paradise . . . [which I spake out of the tree of knowledge and the tree of life], and I caused him 37 to place them in the rock of Ararad."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MANY of the testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs contain the phrase " I read from the Book of Enoch...", (and then the Patriarch would relate what was read - usually it related to immoralities or disobedience the sons of the Patriarch would do that would cause their descendants misery...)

The Christians got their enthusiasm for the book of Enoch as well as the book itself from the Jews. It was the Book of Enoch, Charles hailed as : "the most important pseudepigraph of the first two centuries B.C.".
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He had ample reason to make this claim: For examples : The Hasidic writings of the time as well as the later Cabalistic works show dependence on Enoch. Large parts of the lost Book of Enoch were included in the Pirke of Rabbi Eliezser and in the Hechalot (both highly respected works for scholars). Some of the oldest and most important fragments of Enoch have turned up among the Dead Sea/Qumranic Library. In fact, outside of the Pentateuch and psalms, there were more copies of Enoch discovered in this ancient library than any other old testament book. (Other than their Enoch, no other old testament book even reached double digits in terms of copies found in their library.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

I do not believe that a scholar of Early Christianity CAN understand the early Christian doctrines and the evolution of Christian doctrines without a study of Enoch as part of the library of texts which were popularly used among early Judeo-Christian literature and “proto-christianity”. Nor do I believe that one can make full correlation of early Christian literature without referring to the various Enochs. If you are going to make a study of Judeo-Christianity of this era, you will end up studying enoch. (In fact, when you read the New Testament, you are reading references from Enochian literature, you just didn’t know it.)[/FONT]


POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Clear]

[FONT=&quot]POST TWO OF FIVE


TO Ingledsva and to the LDS on the forum :
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]4) Regarding Ingledsvas' concern about “tainted material”.

I think this is a very good point to keep in mind in reading all early literature, sacred or profane when they describe a specific early description. To avoid ascribing greater value to a “local” religious tradition than it deserves, one can look for repetitions of a religious theme, doctrine, or tradition that repeats itself over and over in multiple different ancient texts which repeats over a long period of time and which texts are separated by large geographical distances and across differing cultures. Such themes have a much greater chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a simple, discrete point made only in a single and obscure text.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, if we consider the restoration by Joseph Smith of the doctrine of Pre-creation existence of the spirits of mankind, we can look for evidence of this doctrine in multiple texts, over a long period of time and a sampling of the doctrine which are separated in multiple texts over relatively large geographical distances.

FOR EXAMPLE :
[/FONT]
THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF THE SOULS OF MANKIND AS AN EXAMPLE OF MULTIPLE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBING A SPECIFIC DOCTRINE

Many, many of the earliest Judeo-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judeo-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early Christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

I started out quoting Enoch, not because the doctrine is ONLY found in Enoch, but because the Enochian literature was very orthodox, very popular, very clear and very influential textual genre. In his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. (1st Enoch 40:1) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Come and I will show you [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, the Enochian literatures witness and description of this tradition are only part of the vast textual literature into which this doctrine is woven. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I saw there a great crowd of men and women[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration&#8221, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....[/FONT][FONT=&quot]those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and to be called my people[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

POST THREE OF FIVE FOLLOWS

[/FONT]

 

[Clear]

POST THREE OF FIVE

[FONT=&quot]The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the spirit shall return unto God who gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot](ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”

The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]where it came from[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For you are from it, and to it you will return[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full[/FONT][FONT=&quot] could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." (Recognitions)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]and all the sons of God shouted for joy[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them[/FONT][FONT=&quot].... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The second treatise of the Great Seth) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The second treatise of the Great Seth) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot],” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5) [/FONT]

POST FOUR OF FIVE FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

[FONT=&quot]POST FOUR OF FIVE

[FONT=&quot]In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Instead of being the last, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]man is really the first work of creation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)

This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made [/FONT][FONT=&quot]man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then God makes a sign[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to the angel appointed over the souls, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the world in which you have lived hitherto[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and when I created you, it was only for this purpose[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)[/FONT]

POST FIVE OF FIVE FOLLOWS
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

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[FONT=&quot]POST FIVE OF FIVE

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.” The question in the sacred text is then asked : It may be wondered, if they [/FONT][FONT=&quot][the souls][/FONT][FONT=&quot] are thus preeminent on both sides, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? “This may be explained by way of a simile: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ...[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].
My point is simply that the ancient Judao-Christian doctrine of pre-mortal existence existed and was believed by early Judao-Christians and assumed in their texts. (There is no need for Jesus disciples to ask him, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" (John 9:2) if they did not believe he could sin before being born.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I might as well point out that, just regarding this tradition of Pre-Mortal existence of souls, I have quoted from multiple texts, including : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Old Testament
The New Testament
The apocalypse of Sedrach
The apocalypse of Abraham
First Enoch
Second Enoch
Third Enoch
Ecclesiates (Old Testament)
The Gospel of Thomas
The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra
Clementine Recognitions
Job (Old Testament)
The Second treatise of the Great Seth
Testaments of the twelve patriarchs (Napthali)
Jewish Haggadah (related to the Talmud)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jewish Zohar[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
In the my original, generalized example, I quoted from multiple other books as well. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
If the doctrine existed, then it becomes very obvious that it was a tremendously important doctrine that affects Judeo-Christian theology in profound ways. The abandonment of this doctrine has had many controversial and adverse effects for christianities who have abandoned it. Though I do not believe the vast majority of LDS even know of the nature of early Judeo-Christian texts, even the LDS readers on the forum will recognize completely familiar and friendly and harmonious themes that they could use in Sunday School without any doctrinal ripples or inconsistencies with their doctrines whereas most other Christian movements will not recognize much resemblance between their theology and the ancient Judao-Christian texts (to the degree that their theology has diverged from such doctrines). These principles apply to multiple early Judeo-christian doctrines that have been re-adopted by any restorational Christian movement. [/FONT]

Early[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] Judao-Chrisitan texts describe and demonstrate what the ancient Judeo-Christians believed. This can be compared to LDS base doctrines on the same subjects in a very objective manner. If specific early Judeo-Christian doctrines are not found in or do not match mainstream Christian movement then this indicates an evolution away from specific early doctrines. If specific early Judeo-Christian doctrines DO match their counterpart specific doctrine within LDS theology, then the specific match is objective data that the two specific doctrines are the same and their specific claim to a restoration of specific, ancient, Judeo-Christian doctrines is correct. [/FONT]

This is part of the point I was made in my observation as an adult historian-convert to LDS theology. Joseph Smith did accurately restore much early Judeo-Christian doctrines and traditions. Even before I was LDS, I ran through multiple speculations as to how he might have been able to do this without having revelation or source material that had not yet been discovered in his day. My multiple speculations accrued inconsistencies and improbabilities that multiplied to the point that they were less likely than the simple explanation of revelation (as I pointed out in my initial point # 1299.) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
In any case Ingledsva, I wish you the best of journeys in this life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Clear
φυτζσιειυι
[/FONT]

 

[Nymphs]

Nor does it negate the point that facts presented by the Mormon Church are still facts.

No they aren't. Facts can be objectively proven, theirs cannot.

 

[idea]

I'm curious to know how Moromon historians and apologists would explain the conclusive evidence that Native Americans are genetically descendants of East Asians, and not of Middle Eastern descent, as the Book of Mormon states.

You're in luck, here's a new article on it, not from FAIR either, on the official LDS.org site:
https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

 

[idea]

No they aren't. Facts can be objectively proven, theirs cannot.

Once again, you really need to pry yourself away from the dualist mindset...
Please study the nine-position progression from dualist thinking to relativist thinking

William G. Perry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it's ok - most college freshmen (and some seniors) are dualists... a whole new world opens up when you discover facts are relative at best, and generally do not exist.

 

[Nymphs]

I'm curious to know how Moromon historians and apologists would explain the conclusive evidence that Native Americans are genetically descendants of East Asians, and not of Middle Eastern descent, as the Book of Mormon states.

Been wondering that myself. :yes:

 

[Nymphs]

You're in luck, here's a new article on it, not from FAIR either, on the official LDS.org site:
https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

And that makes it factual? :no: