Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Ingledsva]

POST ONE OF FIVE


Ingledsva said in post 1326 : “The problem is that you are using Enoch, and there is no proof that what it contains is true, or accurate, concerning the texts it is "expanding.".

And in post # 1327 Ingledsva said : Now you are using 2 and 3 Enoch. 2 Enoch is first century A.D. on. 3 Enoch uses materials from the Babylonian Talmud, so most from the fifth century A.D. on. Material this late is obviously tainted material. This is obvious from the materials used to date them. They contain ideas from other sources.


[FONT=&quot]1)Regarding your complaint that one cannot prove the claims of religious texts to be true or accurate. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you remember my original post (#1299) my purpose was not to prove the claims within any religious text was true or accurate, but rather, that the LDS base claim to have restored early Judeo-Christian base doctrines is, indeed correct. The purpose of quoting from early Judeo-Christian texts was to support this specific claim. This claim is correct, true and accurate and I was simply offering objective textual information to support this very specific claim.[/FONT]
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2)Regarding your intimations that the original Enochian genre and material is from later centuries.
This is incorrect. You are quoting the dating for exant textual copies of enoch, rather than from the origin of Enochian literature. The old testament enochian literature existed before the New Testament, thus the New Testament writers quote from and refer to the Enochian literature. Multiple Enochs were found in the Old Testament Library in Qumran (sequestered approx. 70 c.e.). And an Enoch remains firmly inside the Eastern (Ethiopic) OLD TESTAMENT canon even nowadays.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3) Regarding your correct observation that the later Enochian literature is syncretic.
This is certainly correct, however this is also true of almost all sacred literature to some extent, including the Old and New Testaments. I’ve already pointed out for example, that the New Testament quotes and borrows from Enoch in multiple instances. For example, the writer of Jude quotes Enoch directly.[/FONT]

A SIMPLE HISTORICAL CONSIDERATION REGARDING ENOCHIAN LITERATURE

[FONT=&quot]The Enochian literature existed before the New Testament existed and it was incredibly influential in Judeo-Christian history. For example, it is obvious that early Christian, including those who wrote the New Testament had read the book of Enoch and used it in their writings. The great apocryphologist R.H. charles reminds us that "nearly all the writers of the New Testament were familiar with it, and were more or less influenced by it in thought and diction," and he reminds us further that "it is quoted as a genuine production of Enoch by St. Jude, and as Scripture by St. Barnabas. . . . With the earlier Fathers and Apologists it had all the weight of a canonical book."

In his initial study of Jewish Enoch, Charles quotes no less than 128 places in the New Testament where it is either quoted or influences a quote. The Enochian influence is so great that Charles declares that "The influence of I Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books taken together." He further lists some thirty passages in early orthodox Jewish and Christian writings in which the book of Enoch is mentioned specifically, plus numerous citations from the book that are found in the important Jewish apocalyptic writings of Jubilees, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Assumption of Moses, 2 Baruch, and 4 Ezra, and quotations from Enoch found in more than thirty Christian Patristic writers.

To these influences, we might add the tremendous and obvious wealth of Enoch lore contained in the Zohar. Even the Pistis Sophia, (an important literary link between sectaries in Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Palestinian Christianity and Judaism, claims to contain important material taken from "the two Books of Jeu which Enoch has written” Another quote from Pistis Sophia : “They should find the mysteries which are in the Book of Jeu which I caused Enoch to write in Paradise . . . [which I spake out of the tree of knowledge and the tree of life], and I caused him 37 to place them in the rock of Ararad."
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[FONT=&quot]MANY of the testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs contain the phrase " I read from the Book of Enoch...", (and then the Patriarch would relate what was read - usually it related to immoralities or disobedience the sons of the Patriarch would do that would cause their descendants misery...)

The Christians got their enthusiasm for the book of Enoch as well as the book itself from the Jews. It was the Book of Enoch, Charles hailed as : "the most important pseudepigraph of the first two centuries B.C.".
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[FONT=&quot]He had ample reason to make this claim: For examples : The Hasidic writings of the time as well as the later Cabalistic works show dependence on Enoch. Large parts of the lost Book of Enoch were included in the Pirke of Rabbi Eliezser and in the Hechalot (both highly respected works for scholars). Some of the oldest and most important fragments of Enoch have turned up among the Dead Sea/Qumranic Library. In fact, outside of the Pentateuch and psalms, there were more copies of Enoch discovered in this ancient library than any other old testament book. (Other than their Enoch, no other old testament book even reached double digits in terms of copies found in their library.)[/FONT]
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I do not believe that a scholar of Early Christianity CAN understand the early Christian doctrines and the evolution of Christian doctrines without a study of Enoch as part of the library of texts which were popularly used among early Judeo-Christian literature and “proto-christianity”. Nor do I believe that one can make full correlation of early Christian literature without referring to the various Enochs. If you are going to make a study of Judeo-Christianity of this era, you will end up studying enoch. (In fact, when you read the New Testament, you are reading references from Enochian literature, you just didn’t know it.)[/FONT]


POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS[FONT=&quot]
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None of that changes anything that I said.


These are later texts - expounding on earlier texts - and there is NO proof that what they say is correct - as shown by the text example I used.


As you know the later groups did not accept them as accurate, which is why they were not included.



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[Ingledsva]

[FONT=&quot]POST TWO OF FIVE


TO Ingledsva and to the LDS on the forum :
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]4) Regarding Ingledsvas' concern about “tainted material”.

I think this is a very good point to keep in mind in reading all early literature, sacred or profane when they describe a specific early description.

To avoid ascribing greater value to a “local” religious tradition than it deserves, one can look for repetitions of a religious theme, doctrine, or tradition that repeats itself over and over in multiple different ancient texts which repeats over a long period of time and which texts are separated by large geographical distances and across differing cultures. Such themes have a much greater chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a simple, discrete point made only in a single and obscure text.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, if we consider the restoration by Joseph Smith of the doctrine of Pre-creation existence of the spirits of mankind, we can look for evidence of this doctrine in multiple texts, over a long period of time and a sampling of the doctrine which are separated in multiple texts over relatively large geographical distances.

FOR EXAMPLE :
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THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE OF THE SOULS OF MANKIND AS AN EXAMPLE OF MULTIPLE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBING A SPECIFIC DOCTRINE

Many, many of the earliest Judeo-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judeo-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early Christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :

I started out quoting Enoch, not because the doctrine is ONLY found in Enoch, but because the Enochian literature was very orthodox, very popular, very clear and very influential textual genre. In his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. (1st Enoch 40:1) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Come and I will show you [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have [/FONT][FONT=&quot]already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, the Enochian literatures witness and description of this tradition are only part of the vast textual literature into which this doctrine is woven. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I saw there a great crowd of men and women[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration&#8221, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....[/FONT][FONT=&quot]those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and to be called my people[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

POST THREE OF FIVE FOLLOWS

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I made a section - BOLD and RED - above -


That is bull. Misinformation is passed along in later writings - especially if they have some value for the ones doing the copying.


Finding stories about giants or fairies in multiple texts around the world does not make them real, nor the earliest texts using such, as without error, or being straight out false.




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[idea]

And that makes it factual? :no:

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

 

[Nymphs]

Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

Why does my age have anything to do with this conversation? It doesn't, but I will acquiesce to your request for the sake of your red herring. I will be turning thirty next year.

I'm still waiting on a non-FAIR, non-FARM's, non-LDS study that proves the Mormon claims. So far, none of you have been able to provide that, and it speaks volumes about the claims of the Mormon Church.

 

[Ingledsva]

POST THREE OF FIVE

[FONT=&quot]The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the spirit shall return unto God who gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot](ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”

The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]where it came from[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For you are from it, and to it you will return[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full[/FONT][FONT=&quot] could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." (Recognitions)
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You are trying to turn the above into separate - spirit beings - to further your ideas about spirit beings outside the body being everywhere.


The idea of the spirit of YHVH within us - giving the clay/dust body life - does not mean disembodied spirits are running amuck.


Ecc 12:7 is talking about when we die, and uses - ruach - breath/life.



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[Ingledsva]

POST THREE OF FIVE

[FONT=&quot]The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the spirit shall return unto God who gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot](ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”

The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]where it came from[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For you are from it, and to it you will return[/FONT][FONT=&quot].” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full[/FONT][FONT=&quot] could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light[/FONT][FONT=&quot]." (Recognitions)
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[FONT=&quot]In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]and all the sons of God shouted for joy[/FONT][FONT=&quot]”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them[/FONT][FONT=&quot].... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The second treatise of the Great Seth) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies[/FONT][FONT=&quot], we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (The second treatise of the Great Seth) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature : [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot],” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5) [/FONT]

POST FOUR OF FIVE FOLLOWS

Nothing you have quoted above actually supports the Mormon ideas behind "spirit," as being originally correct.


We already know from the texts that all was within YHVH at the creation. That would mean all "spirit" was already within. Thus not the Mormon ideas behind the words. Nor the attempted twisting of the texts quoted above.


None of this says "spirits" are going to become Christ like, or God like, going on "after death of the body" and creating, etc.


PS. - Job 38:4-7 which you quoted above - is telling us the earth is a flat circle, - a pancake. The words used mean a circle scribed using a string anchored in the center.



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[idea]

Why does my age have anything to do with this conversation? It doesn't, but I will acquiesce to your request for the sake of your red herring. I will be turning thirty next year.

Communication depends on knowing who you are talking to, understanding their language.

May I ask why you are so interested in Mormonism? or religion in general?

 

[Nymphs]

Communication depends on knowing who you are talking to, understanding their language.

May I ask why you are so interested in Mormonism? or religion in general?

This thread isn't about that...if you really want the answers to those questions, feel free to ask me here http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ny-burning-questions-nymph-5.html#post3773857 or PM me.

Thanks.

 

[Clear]

Idea : I admit had wondered about that as well.

Glad to hear from you on the forum.

Clear

 

[Clear]

post one of two


Ingledsva commented in # 1342 “None of that changes anything that I said.”


My point is that your claim was in error. You are not a historian, When the writer of New Testament Jude quotes Enoch : “[FONT=&quot]And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints… (NT Jude 1:14) ” he is referring to a quote he either read or heard before. Enochian literature pre-dates the New Testament. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]


Ingledsva commented in # 1342 : “there is NO proof that what they say is correct - as shown by the text example I used.”
You are becoming increasingly confused Ingledsva. Read my claims. I have explained to you that I am not trying to prove the Christian theology is true or false. I am simply showing what specific early Judeo-Christian traditions and beliefs were using multiple texts (and not merely enoch) and that these specific traditions are parallels to LDS theology. If you were a historian, you would realize there are mythic elements in almost all of the sacred literature, whether one is speaking of pseudepigraphs or New Testament texts. You are also not a linguist since you do not seem to realize that your example is highly dependent upon translation and your naive assumption that your quotes are what original Enoch said (this is doubtful since the extant text is syncretic).



Whether the Christian base theology is true OR false, the LDS base theology represents a version of the early Judeo-Christian pre-existent theology.


Ingledsva commented in # 1342 “As you know the later groups did not accept them as accurate, which is why they were not included.”


Though a version of Enoch remains firmly inside the eastern/Ethiopic Old Testament, even in 2014, I think the motives why the popular Enochian literature became less popular among the Jews first is more complicated than your simple theory suggests.



For example, as Christian movements such as the Roman Christian movement moved away from the earlier doctrine of pre-mortal existence of spirits, any literature which contained such doctrines would have been shunned. In this specific mechanism, it was not the textual tradition that had changed, but the Christian movement itself has moved away from and abandoned an earlier doctrine. In such a case, it is evidence of an a result of doctrinal evolution in much the same way that some modern Christians who view the apostle Paul as an apostate discount and avoid Pauline literature.


Clear said : “ [FONT=&quot]to avoid ascribing greater value to a “local” religious tradition than it deserves, one can look for repetitions of a religious theme, doctrine, or tradition that repeats itself over and over in multiple different ancient texts which repeats over a long period of time and which texts are separated by large geographical distances and across differing cultures. Such themes have a much greater chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a simple, discrete point made only in a single and obscure text.”[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Ingledsva commented in # 1343 : “[/FONT]That is bull. Misinformation is passed along in later writings - especially if they have some value for the ones doing the copying.”


You are becoming confused again as to the different between “truth” and “belief” and perceived orthodoxy and you are not thinking logically or rationally.



My comment regarding the principle of “orthodoxy” is perfectly correct. Any doctrine that existed and was believed by large swaths of populations anciently, especially if the doctrine spread over large portions of the world, and was a standard belief for a long period of time, has a much higher chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a doctrine that is found only once in a single and obscure text and only believed by a few individuals for a short period of time.

post two of two follows

 

[Clear]

post two of two


Ingledsva says “Finding stories about giants or fairies in multiple texts around the world does not make them real, nor the earliest texts using such, as without error, or being straight out false.”

Ingledsva, You are describing things I have not claims nor believe in. If you are going to start creating strawmen, then this conversation has less value.



Ingledsva , Your post # 1346 is going to have to make more sense before I can understand what you are trying to say.

You seem to have a religious opinion that the early Judeo-Christians did not believe in the pre-mortal existence of the spirit.
Do you have any data from any of early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that show that they shared the same interpretation as you?

For example In Jewish Haggadah “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: “O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which you called me into being. Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. ...In the morning an angel carries here to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crown upon their heads. The Angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” ..... Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows here where she will live and where she will die...and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinner and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, “The time has come for you to go abroad into the open world.” The soul demurs, “Why do you want to make me go forth into the open world?” The angel replies : “Know that as you were formed against your will, so now you will be born against your will, and against your will you shall die, and against your will you shall give account of yourself before the King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be he.” But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This early tradition describes an implied belief that a spirit that is going to be placed into a body exists and is cognizant before it is placed into a body through birth.

Do you have sacred early Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?

Another example is from the Zohar :
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world.” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

Again, this is another example describing the early tradition that spirits of mankind existed before being born into this life in a cognizant state.

Can you give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?

In any case, I hope your journey in this life is good.

Clear
futzactzfuz

 

[Nymphs]

Idea : I admit had wondered about that as well.

Glad to hear from you on the forum.

Clear

Like I stated beforehand, my age is of no consequence in these discussions, neither is yours.

 

[Ingledsva]

post one of two


Ingledsva commented in # 1342 “None of that changes anything that I said.”


My point is that your claim was in error. You are not a historian, When the writer of New Testament Jude quotes Enoch : “[FONT=&quot]And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints… (NT Jude 1:14) ” he is referring to a quote he either read or heard before. Enochian literature pre-dates the New Testament. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]




ING - Nice try - no fly. I was obviously talking about Tanakh. Enoch is trying to define texts in Tanakh.



Ingledsva commented in # 1342 : “there is NO proof that what they say is correct - as shown by the text example I used.”
You are becoming increasingly confused Ingledsva. Read my claims. I have explained to you that I am not trying to prove the Christian theology is true or false. I am simply showing what specific early Judeo-Christian traditions and beliefs were using multiple texts (and not merely enoch) and that these specific traditions are parallels to LDS theology. If you were a historian, you would realize there are mythic elements in almost all of the sacred literature, whether one is speaking of pseudepigraphs or New Testament texts. You are also not a linguist since you do not seem to realize that your example is highly dependent upon translation and your naive assumption that your quotes are what original Enoch said (this is doubtful since the extant text is syncretic).






ING - And now you are twisting what was actually said. YOU are trying to claim old sources such as Enoch give legitimacy to Mormon doctrine.


When in REALITY - Enoch has no proof of legitimacy - and as shown by the example - the explanation given in Enoch - holds no legitimacy - as there is no reason to make the Sons of God - spirits - when the Hebrew were called Sons of God.


Whether the Christian base theology is true OR false, the LDS base theology represents a version of the early Judeo-Christian pre-existent theology.




ING - And again - twisting old texts to take your meaning, - as well as the texts you chose being challenged, - does not give legitimacy to your, or LDS claims.




Ingledsva commented in # 1342 “As you know the later groups did not accept them as accurate, which is why they were not included.”


Though a version of Enoch remains firmly inside the eastern/Ethiopic Old Testament, even in 2014, I think the motives why the popular Enochian literature became less popular among the Jews first is more complicated than your simple theory suggests.



For example, as Christian movements such as the Roman Christian movement moved away from the earlier doctrine of pre-mortal existence of spirits, any literature which contained such doctrines would have been shunned. In this specific mechanism, it was not the textual tradition that had changed, but the Christian movement itself has moved away from and abandoned an earlier doctrine. In such a case, it is evidence of an a result of doctrinal evolution in much the same way that some modern Christians who view the apostle Paul as an apostate discount and avoid Pauline literature.


Clear said : “ [FONT=&quot]to avoid ascribing greater value to a “local” religious tradition than it deserves, one can look for repetitions of a religious theme, doctrine, or tradition that repeats itself over and over in multiple different ancient texts which repeats over a long period of time and which texts are separated by large geographical distances and across differing cultures. Such themes have a much greater chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a simple, discrete point made only in a single and obscure text.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



ING - What is your point here? It is not accepted by the majority of Christians or Jews.


Perhaps because they realized it falsely calls Sons of God (which the Hebrew are called,) - spirits, and such, rather then the idea given that we are clay vessels (earth matter) - imbued with spirit from God?




[FONT=&quot]Ingledsva commented in # 1343 : “[/FONT]That is bull. Misinformation is passed along in later writings - especially if they have some value for the ones doing the copying.”


You are becoming confused again as to the different between “truth” and “belief” and perceived orthodoxy and you are not thinking logically or rationally.



My comment regarding the principle of “orthodoxy” is perfectly correct. Any doctrine that existed and was believed by large swaths of populations anciently, especially if the doctrine spread over large portions of the world, and was a standard belief for a long period of time, has a much higher chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a doctrine that is found only once in a single and obscure text and only believed by a few individuals for a short period of time.

post two of two follows

LOL! No confusion what so ever. YOU are trying to claim these as true-doctrine, to support and legitimize LDS Doctrine.

As already explained - things being passed along does not make them doctrine, or true, etc.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

post two of two


Ingledsva says “Finding stories about giants or fairies in multiple texts around the world does not make them real, nor the earliest texts using such, as without error, or being straight out false.”

Ingledsva, You are describing things I have not claims nor believe in. If you are going to start creating strawmen, then this conversation has less value.



ING - LOL! It is not a straw man when I point out that what you are claiming makes these texts legit - DOESN'T!

We have extremely ancient texts from India. Copies of them are found around the world, and sections of them are incorporated into many religions.

How exactly would one of those later groups deciding for themselves what the original means - and then an even later group incorporating those "later interpretations" into a new religion, - have any legitimacy? Neither the altered text, nor the new religion using those texts, has any legitimacy (from such texts.)




Ingledsva , Your post # 1346 is going to have to make more sense before I can understand what you are trying to say.

You seem to have a religious opinion that the early Judeo-Christians did not believe in the pre-mortal existence of the spirit.
Do you have any data from any of early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that show that they shared the same interpretation as you?

For example In Jewish Haggadah “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: “O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which you called me into being. Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. ...In the morning an angel carries here to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crown upon their heads. The Angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” ..... Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows here where she will live and where she will die...and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinner and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, “The time has come for you to go abroad into the open world.” The soul demurs, “Why do you want to make me go forth into the open world?” The angel replies : “Know that as you were formed against your will, so now you will be born against your will, and against your will you shall die, and against your will you shall give account of yourself before the King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be he.” But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This early tradition describes an implied belief that a spirit that is going to be placed into a body exists and is cognizant before it is placed into a body through birth.

Do you have sacred early Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?

Another example is from the Zohar :
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world.” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

Again, this is another example describing the early tradition that spirits of mankind existed before being born into this life in a cognizant state.

Can you give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?

In any case, I hope your journey in this life is good.

Clear
futzactzfuz

ING - And for that last grouping -


You obviously didn't actually read, or perhaps understand what I said.


Obviously they have spirit - and I stated such!!!!!


What I said is that they were not using the term the way LDS is interpreting it!


Like it or not, the Hebrew Story claims ONE God, - and until It created - there was nothing else, not angels, not spirit, etc. Other then the idea that ALL is contained within God, of course.


YOU said this --


"AN OVERVIEW OF SOME EARLY TRADITIONS AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I AM DESCRIBING
Idea, who is an LDS RF member, once quoted Joseph Smiths’ summarization of God’s plan surrounding the atonement in the most simple, yet profound terms. To this historian of peri-ce period Judeo-Christian, texts, it is an incredible summary of this vast area of historical science :

"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself.



It does not say - nor imply anything of that sort.


This idea that spirits advance and become Christ like, then somehow God like, is not in Tanakh, and has been a big hoopla here.



PS. Sorry about the size of my answers. I wanted to make them stand out from the other text, - then in preview I realized they were too big, however there must be a glitch as it won't let me make them smaller. LOL

*

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF TWO


1)Clear said : My point is that your claim was in error. You are not a historian, When the writer of New Testament Jude quotes Enoch : “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints… (NT Jude 1:14) ” he is referring to a quote he either read or heard before. Enochian literature pre-dates the New Testament.
Ingledsva commented “ I was obviously talking about Tanakh. Enoch is trying to define texts in Tanakh.”

And how does this new theory of yours support your position that early Christians did not believe in the pre-mortal existence of the spirits within mankind?



2) Ingledsva commented in # 1342 : “there is NO proof that what they say is correct - as shown by the text example I used.”
Clear responded : You are becoming increasingly confused Ingledsva. Read my claims. I have explained to you that I am not trying to prove the Christian theology is true or false. I am simply showing what specific early Judeo-Christian traditions and beliefs were using multiple texts (and not merely enoch) and that these specific traditions are parallels to LDS theology. If you were a historian, you would realize there are mythic elements in almost all of the sacred literature, whether one is speaking of pseudepigraphs or New Testament texts. You are also not a linguist since you do not seem to realize that your example is highly dependent upon translation and your naive assumption that your quotes are what original Enoch said (this is doubtful since the extant text is syncretic).
Ingledsva commented : YOU are trying to claim old sources such as Enoch give legitimacy to Mormon doctrine.

This is one of the few things have been are correct on. "OLD SOURCES" tell us what happened in "OLD TIMES". The vast amount of early literature, both sacred and profane IS part of what informs us of conditions in "old times". We know about Galileos' love for his daughter, about his experiments and conclusions, his beliefs, etc. because of "old sources" such as letters. These are "old sources". Much of our data regarding Jesus and his apostles come from the New Testament. It is an "old source". Many of the early Judeo-Christians wrote diaries, letters, sermons, hymns and psalms, fiction, lectionaries, commentaries/mishnas, which discuss their experiences and beliefs. These are "old sources". All such "old sources" can tell us much about what the people who wrote them experienced and believed.

Regarding "old sources" and the LDS: I am saying that the specific LDS claim that they represent a restoration of and a return to specific early Christian doctrines is correct.

As the current example doctrine I used multiple early sacred texts (i.e. "old sources") as examples descriptions of the ancient Judeo-Christian (i.e. the "old people") doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of the spirits of mankind.

I referred to multiple "old source" texts including The Old Testament, The New Testament, The apocalypse of Sedrach, The apocalypse of Abraham, First Enoch, Second Enoch, Third Enoch, Ecclesiates (Old Testament), The Gospel of Thomas, The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra, Clementine Recognitions, Job (Old Testament) , The Second treatise of the Great Seth, Testaments of the twelve patriarchs (Napthali), Jewish Haggadah (related to the Talmud), and Jewish Zohar in my examples.

I claimed that the LDS ALSO believe in this doctrine that is in "old sources" and that this represents a parallel between LDS and the "old and ancient" Christianity that is not shared by many other Christian movements. It is a return to an ancient (i.e. "old") doctrine.



3) Ingledsva commented : there is no reason to make the Sons of God - spirits - when the Hebrew were called Sons of God.
And yet the Early Judeo-Christians obviously did take this view on the spirits of mankind as I have shown from multiple textual examples.

Please, offer us your data from early Sacred Literature to show your position that early Judeo-Christians did not believe mankind existed as spirits before they were born. What data are you offering to prove they believed in your interpretation?



4) Ingledsvacommented ING - What is your point here? It is not accepted by the majority of Christians or Jews.

Clear responded : For some reason you seem unable or unwilling to think historically. You keep speaking in the “here" and the "now” and refer to modern Christians and modern Jews as though they were the same as the earliest Christians and earliest Jews. If you are unwilling to think historically, your posts will not be as historically relevant as they could be.

The majority of modern Christians and Jews no longer ride donkeys in their travels, but they used to. Your inability to think historically is a lot like my Kids who wondered why the Apostles didn’t just use cell phones to keep in touch. If you want to talk about history, you are going to have to learn to think historically rather than try to discuss something you look up on Wikipedia and then try to quote in a post and your naive assumptions that modern Christians and Jews are the same as they were anciently.

The first point is that the book of Enoch was accepted anciently. It was accepted and used by the writers of the New Testament, it was used by the Jews; it is still used by eastern Christians. It is referenced more than 125 times in the New Testament alone.

The second and more important point is that the book of Enoch is merely one genre from hundreds (perhaps thousands) of early texts which serve as witnesses of the beliefs of ancient Christians. There are over 2000 pages of pseudepigraphia just in Charlesworth alone. And this, simply represents ONLY old testament pseudepigraphs. And this, only what has been translated into English. And this does NOT include apocryphal libraries or other Christian or Jewish libraries (e.g. Nag Hamadi, Qumran, New Testament era texts, didache, apostolic fathers, psalms, lectionaries, hymns, synagogal prayers, sybiline texts, early Christian fiction, early Christian diaries, etc. etc. ) If the Enochian literature is not important to you, then simply avoid it and use the other ancient sacred literature to learn more about a doctrine that was common among early Christians.



5) Ingledsva commented : Perhaps because they realized it falsely turns humans into spirits, and such?

We've already touched on some early sacred literature that describes the Early Judeo-christian belief that spirits of mankind existed prior to birth.

Will you give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?


POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO

6) Clear offered examples of texts describing pre-mortal existence of spirits in post #1352

You seem to have a religious opinion that the early Judeo-Christians did not believe in the pre-mortal existence of the spirit.
Do you have any data from any of early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that show that they shared the same interpretation as you?

For example In Jewish Haggadah “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: “O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which you called me into being. Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. ...In the morning an angel carries here to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crown upon their heads. The Angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” ..... Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows here where she will live and where she will die...and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinner and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, “The time has come for you to go abroad into the open world.” The soul demurs, “Why do you want to make me go forth into the open world?” The angel replies : “Know that as you were formed against your will, so now you will be born against your will, and against your will you shall die, and against your will you shall give account of yourself before the King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be he.” But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This early tradition describes an implied belief that a spirit that is going to be placed into a body exists and is cognizant before it is placed into a body through birth.
Do you have sacred early Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?

Another example is from the Zohar :
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world.” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

Again, this is another example describing the early tradition that spirits of mankind existed before being born into this life in a cognizant state.
Can you give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?


Ingledsva commented : twisting old texts to take your meaning, - as well as the texts you chose being challenged, - does not give legitimacy to your, or LDS claims.

I strongly agree with you that “twisting texts” decreases legitimacy of conclusions. This is why I simply quoted texts that I thought were very, very clear and detailed that demonstrate an obvious belief in the existence of cognizant spirits of mankind before birth and allowed readers to see if they think these quotes refer to cognizant spirits of mankind existing prior to birth or not.

FORUM READERS : Read the two quotes in purple above. See if you think that my comments “twist” them OR if you think they do not clearly describe spirits of mankind before birth.

Ingledsva, will you give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?




7) Clear said : You are becoming confused again as to the different between “truth” and “belief” and perceived orthodoxy and you are not thinking logically or rationally.

My comment regarding the principle of “orthodoxy” is perfectly correct. Any doctrine that existed and was believed by large swaths of populations anciently, especially if the doctrine spread over large portions of the world, and was a standard belief for a long period of time, has a much higher chance of representing “orthodoxy” than a doctrine that is found only once in a single and obscure text and only believed by a few individuals for a short period of time.

Ingledsva commented : No confusion what so ever. YOU are trying to claim these as true-doctrine, to support and legitimize LDS Doctrine.


I would rather assume that you are confused rather than assume you are being disingenuous. Where have I claimed any of these doctrines were either true or false doctrine. (you need to take your own advice on "twisting")

YOU have, however, intimated that Enoch “falsely turns humans into spirits, and such?”

Will you give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born?

I look forward to your data that supports your personal theory regarding whether the early Judeo-Christian believed in pre-mortal existence of spirits. I suspect other readers look forward to analyzing your data and comparing it to what I might be able to offer as well.




Whether we agree or disagree Ingledsva, I hope your journey is quite good in this life.


Clear
φυτζακσιτζω

 

[McBell]

No they aren't. Facts can be objectively proven, theirs cannot.

Are you claiming that the Mormons never ever present anything that is one of your "objective facts"?

 

[McBell]

I'm still waiting on a non-FAIR, non-FARM's, non-LDS study that proves the Mormon claims. So far, none of you have been able to provide that, and it speaks volumes about the claims of the Mormon Church.

The same volumes as your lack of supporting evidence for your claims?

 

[Nymphs]

Are you claiming that the Mormons never ever present anything that is one of your "objective facts"?

In my experience, if they are trying to prove their doctrine (i.e. Book of Mormon, angels, prophesy, etc.), no.

 

[Ingledsva]

POST ONE OF TWO


1)Clear said : My point is that your claim was in error. You are not a historian, When the writer of New Testament Jude quotes Enoch : “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints… (NT Jude 1:14) ” he is referring to a quote he either read or heard before. Enochian literature pre-dates the New Testament.
Ingledsva commented “ I was obviously talking about Tanakh. Enoch is trying to define texts in Tanakh.”




1. - ING - LOL! Go back and read! I changed nothing. Enoch is later commentary on Tanakh. There is NOTHING proving it true.



And how does this new theory of yours support your position that early Christians did not believe in the pre-mortal existence of the spirits within mankind?



1.B. ING - And again you are trying to twist what I actually said. The Hebrew believe in ONE GOD that CREATED EVERYTHING, including spirit and angels.

We are told humans are a like a pot which GOD places spirit within.

That IS NOT the baloney you are trying to turn it into - saying God found himself SURROUNDED by Spirits and decided to give them a chance to be like HIM. That is BULL! It does not say that about Spirit, no matter how many times you try to twist it to your religion.


2) Ingledsva commented in # 1342 : “there is NO proof that what they say is correct - as shown by the text example I used.”
Clear responded : You are becoming increasingly confused Ingledsva. Read my claims. I have explained to you that I am not trying to prove the Christian theology is true or false. I am simply showing what specific early Judeo-Christian traditions and beliefs were using multiple texts (and not merely enoch) and that these specific traditions are parallels to LDS theology. If you were a historian, you would realize there are mythic elements in almost all of the sacred literature, whether one is speaking of pseudepigraphs or New Testament texts. You are also not a linguist since you do not seem to realize that your example is highly dependent upon translation and your naive assumption that your quotes are what original Enoch said (this is doubtful since the extant text is syncretic).


2. ING - You are repeating yourself. You ARE trying to PROVE Enoch and other outsider texts - to give legitimacy to your religion's ideas about Spirit people - and becoming God-like.

PS. Continuing the attempted put down with the "confused," "naïve," "not a historian," "not a linguist," etc, doesn't help your rebuttal one iota.

Since you have brought it up - as I have said here many times, - I have plenty of history under my belt, I am an Archaeologist, I also took Comparative Religions in college, and a separate history course offered by the Catholic Church. I also translate the Hebrew and the Greek. My interest is the ancient spread of language, philosophy, and religion.

Can I assume you don't meet the standards of your own taunts?



Ingledsva commented : YOU are trying to claim old sources such as Enoch give legitimacy to Mormon doctrine.

This is one of the few things have been are correct on. "OLD SOURCES" tell us what happened in "OLD TIMES". The vast amount of early literature, both sacred and profane IS part of what informs us of conditions in "old times". We know about Galileos' love for his daughter, about his experiments and conclusions, his beliefs, etc. because of "old sources" such as letters. These are "old sources". Much of our data regarding Jesus and his apostles come from the New Testament. It is an "old source". Many of the early Judeo-Christians wrote diaries, letters, sermons, hymns and psalms, fiction, lectionaries, commentaries/mishnas, which discuss their experiences and beliefs. These are "old sources". All such "old sources" can tell us much about what the people who wrote them experienced and believed.

Regarding "old sources" and the LDS: I am saying that the specific LDS claim that they represent a restoration of and a return to specific early Christian doctrines is correct.

As the current example doctrine I used multiple early sacred texts (i.e. "old sources") as examples descriptions of the ancient Judeo-Christian (i.e. the "old people") doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of the spirits of mankind.

I referred to multiple "old source" texts including The Old Testament, The New Testament, The apocalypse of Sedrach, The apocalypse of Abraham, First Enoch, Second Enoch, Third Enoch, Ecclesiates (Old Testament), The Gospel of Thomas, The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra, Clementine Recognitions, Job (Old Testament) , The Second treatise of the Great Seth, Testaments of the twelve patriarchs (Napthali), Jewish Haggadah (related to the Talmud), and Jewish Zohar in my examples.

I claimed that the LDS ALSO believe in this doctrine that is in "old sources" and that this represents a parallel between LDS and the "old and ancient" Christianity that is not shared by many other Christian movements. It is a return to an ancient (i.e. "old") doctrine.



2.B ING - You have not proven your sources are correct, - or that in any way, they actually mesh with LDS ideas on Spirit.


Spirit existing - is not the same thing as saying God found himself surrounded by spirit beings - and decided to give them a chance to be like him.

NONE of you stated sources says anything like that. You are twisting their spirit information.

And why would you be claiming later Jewish mysticism as from the beginning of Judaism? Or as accepted by ancient Jews, and/or early Christians.






3) Ingledsva commented : there is no reason to make the Sons of God - spirits - when the Hebrew were called Sons of God.
And yet the Early Judeo-Christians obviously did take this view on the spirits of mankind as I have shown from multiple textual examples.

Please, offer us your data from early Sacred Literature to show your position that early Judeo-Christians did not believe mankind existed as spirits before they were born. What data are you offering to prove they believed in your interpretation?




ING - This is becoming ridiculous. I shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over.


THEY BELIEVED IN SPIRIT. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN A BUNCH OF SPIRIT PEOPLE AROUND GOD - IN NEED OF ASSISTANCE BECOMING GOD-LIKE!

According to Tanakh, GOD'S SPIRIT is what is within us giving us life.


In other words you are twisting what these texts say about SPIRIT.



Had to split - too many words. See part two.


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