Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Watchmen]

I have not insulted anyone.
I merely made a statement of fact.

Now if Beckysoup would like to prove me wrong....

But I shan't hold my breath.

Exactly.

 

[Clear]

Regarding Jesus statement : “…It is finished…” in John 19:30
Disciple said in post # 1375 “What I take it to mean is the beginning of the New Covenant”

I like both the reminder that Jesus' role as the mediator of the New Covenant is connected to his role as the redeemer of mankind as well as the interesting historical connections and considerations this specific sentence in Disciples’ post brings up.


Clear

 

[Ingledsva]

POST ONE OF FIVE

1) Clear commented : In at least the last four posts I have asked you multiple times to give us examples from early sacred Judeo-Christian texts that describe your interpretation that spirits did not exist prior to being born? This should be incredibly easy if you are as educated and as well-versed as you claim.
ING responded - Again this has become stupidity beyond belief! Why would I look for texts stating no spirit - when I have repeatedly stated that there is in Tanakh? It is just NOT as you state, and nothing you have provided proves your case.

Do not be hard on yourself ingledsva. I do NOT think you are being stupid “beyond belief”, but rather you are simply being recalcitrant regarding a position you hope to discredit. If you DO admit that spirits of mankind exist prior to birth, then this is consistent with the LDS base claim. You are, however, elaborating upon the LDS claim in ways that reveal ignorance (still, I do not think you are being stupid beyond belief&#8230.

You repeat over and over that the Hebrew bible (i.e. Tanakh) supports your interpretation, yet you do not offer us supporting textual data. You merely repeat your unfounded claim that the bible (tanakh) supports you.

I’ve asked for DATA, and TEXTUAL INFORMATION that supports your theory and it’s interpretation. Nowhere in this or other posts have you done this. For example, look at your next response below.




ING LOL! You are playing at DENSE. I have repeated OVER and OVER that there IS/ARE SPIRIT/SPIRITS.

There are not SPIRITS like YOU are claiming.

Since "YOU" used ENOCH - I used also used Enoch to prove you were misreading the texts.


***




2) Ingledsva claims : “I have plenty of history under my belt, I am an Archaeologist, I also took Comparative Religions in college, and a separate history course offered by the Catholic Church. I also translate the Hebrew and the Greek. My interest is the ancient spread of language, philosophy, and religion. “
Clear responded : This is all very, very good, since, if this is all true, you should be very able to refer to multiple, and early Christian texts that support your position that early christians did not believe spirits existed prior to being born.
Ingledsva offered : Indeed, however I don't need to, as Tanakh is the base upon which the texts you are using, supposedly expound. Tanakh does not say what you are saying.

Again, you are simply repeating your claim that your interpretation of the bible (tanakh) does not support a claim you disagree with.

Your next response is simply more of the same. It is another empty claim regarding what you think is Hebrew belief.

Ingledsva responded : The Hebrew believe in ONE GOD that CREATED EVERYTHING, including spirit and angels. We are told humans are a like a pot which GOD places spirit within.

I might remind you that the claim we are discussing relates to CHRISTIANITY and CHRISTIAN BELIEF so your claims regarding hebrews exclusively, are fairly irrelevant.

Since you keep referring to the Hebrew bible (tanakh), I might remind you that the Christians did not use the tanakh (i.e. the HEBREW BIBLE), in the main, but rather they mainly used the Septuagint. How can you be such a great archaeologist-historian with deep linguistic and historical education as you say and have missed these very basic points?
IF you are an archaeologist with deep linguistic and Religious-historical education as you claim, you should be able to provide us SOME sort of textual data rather than mindlessly repeating your claim that you are correct. Read your next response, it is more of the same.

Ingledsva said : “ If you don't know this basic Hebrew idea - you have a big problem.”

It is yet more of the same claim, repeated over and over and over what you think the Hebrews believe. But no textual data accompanying it nor how it relates to the Christian concept of existence of the spirits of mankind before they were born.




3) Regarding your Claim that you : "... have plenty of history under my belt, I am an Archaeologist, I also took Comparative Religions in college, and a separate history course offered by the Catholic Church. I also translate the Hebrew and the Greek. My interest is the ancient spread of language, philosophy, and religion.

If you want people to believe these claims, then act like an archaeologist who has “plenty of [religious] history” under their belt. Act like someone "who once took a history course" and Act like someone who is able to "translate" Greek of the Christian Bible. Give us DATA.

Instead of doing this, read your next response :
Ingledsva said If you don't understand that they believe in only ONE GOD, with NO spirit people floating around waiting to become other Gods - you have a big problem.

This is not the response of an educator. If you are truly educated, then educate. Share what you think you know in the form of data rather than jibes. Rather than discuss irrelevant claims, tell us what you actually have read and your research about the topic at hand. Read your next response.

Ingledsva said : What do you not understand about - Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

This “data” you offer has nothing to do with the pre-mortal existence of spirits. You ARE confused and constantly drift from the point at hand as though you would rather speak of other issues rather than the uncomfortable one in front of you. FOCUS on the subject at hand and GIVE US TEXTUAL DATA REGARDING YOUR DISAGREEMENT WITH THE SPIRITS OF MANKIND HAVING PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE.

POST TWO OF FIVE FOLLOWS

LOL! Dude! You had better go back and read those lase few rebuttals.


I showed that you were full of it - and that Enoch does NOTuse SPIRITS as YOU are claiming.


I showed the text!


PS - giant print doesn't make what you type truer.




*

 

[Ingledsva]

POST TWO OF FIVE

4) Ingledsva said : This would be a good place for our Jewish and Christian members to chime in, as he is saying early Jewish and Christian texts say God found himself surrounded by spirit people and wanted to help them become like himself, which obviously they do not say.
Why cry for “help” from bystanders? And why add words to my claims?

*

4) ING - LOL! Dude! No cry for help. I felt actual Jews and Christians should set YOU straight on the meaning of THEIR texts. LDS is not accepted by the rest for a reason!

*

If you are as bright and educated an archaeologist as you claim, with deep historical, religious history, and linguistic background as you claim, it should be VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY EASY for you to offer us textual DATA.

OFFER US THE DATA that individual spirits do not exist before birth as the early Christians believed. On the other hand, if you AGREE with the base principle that spirits existed before birth, then you are agreeing with the LDS claim. Where is your DATA?



4b) ING - LOL! Already did. I showed that you misread/misconstrued the Enoch texts, to twist them to your ideas.


And for the 10th?-20th? time - I said they do list spirits.


What they do not do is make them what you are claiming they are!


None of these have God finding himself surrounded by Spirit-people, whom he then decided he had to help become like himself!


The Jewish and Christian contention is that there was NOTHING but GOD until that God created.


I knew you before you were born - is in the texts. Imbued with spirit - is in the texts. Angels called Spirits - is in the texts. Enoch says bad angels are bad spirits on Earth.


However none say what YOU are saying they say.


*




5) Ingledsva said : Spirit existing - is not the same thing as saying God found himself surrounded by spirit beings
Clear responded : So, you are going to tell me how I must interpret my own religions text to support your theories? As a linguist, you must recognize this as an error and a very, very bad approach to deriving meaning of any provencial text.
Ingledsva responded : ING - I didn't tell you how to interpret your religion! You can believe anything you want. I am rebutting the idea that these texts support your religion's spirit ideas.

Surely you realize that any “rebuttal” should include SOME DATA which serves to rebut and refute other data, rather than to repeat the claim that “the bible (tanakh) supports me!” over and over (and over). Offer us some DATA, some TEXT, something that supports your position rather than simply claiming the bible (tanakh) supports you.


*


5) ING - AGAIN - already did. You chose to quote Enoch out of context. I posted the Enoch text to show you were wrong!


*

6) Ingledsva said : “THEY BELIEVED IN SPIRIT. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN A BUNCH OF SPIRIT PEOPLE AROUND GOD - IN NEED OF ASSISTANCE BECOMING GOD-LIKE!“

If you believe the early christians believed in spirit (I hope you are smart enough to refer to CHRISTIANS rather than HEBREWS– since my claim refers to CHRISTIANITY…) then tell us WHY you believe in “spirit” (singular) and not in “spirits” (plural). Give us textual data from any of the earliest textual sources supporting your interpretation that the earliest Christians did not believe the spirits of mankind existed before birth. (Or are you actually admitting cognizant spirits existed.)


*

6) ING - You need to slow down and actually read what people say to you. I said the idea was that God imbued "clay pots/earth material" with spirit. I also noted the "I knew you before you were born!"

And I included Enoch text to show what it actually meant!


HINT - NONE of them say what you are implying!


*



7) Ingledsva said : “According to Tanakh, GOD'S SPIRIT is what is within us giving us life.”

So what?

1) You are simply making a claim that the bible (tanakh) says something to you.
2) How does the source of life show that the early Christians did not believe that spirits of mankind existed before they were born?
3) If you are so sensitive to sources of information, why don’t you use the ancient Christian Bible to discuss Christian doctrine rather than the Hebrew bible (tanakh)?
4) There are issues with your interpretation and relevance that we cannot even discuss without references to your text (as you should know if you are a translator…).


*


7) ING - Good grief! And AGAIN - NOTHING you have shown us says anything like YOU are claiming.


*


8) Ingledsva “I repeated the same information OVER AND OVER!”

[FONT=&quot]This IS the Problem.

STOP simply repeating your claim that the bible (tanakh) agrees with you over and over and over and START GIVING US DATA that either supports or rebuts my claim that the early Judeo-Christian traditions were that spirits of mankind existed before they were born.

We have yet to receive any substantial textual data or objective information from any of your posts.

We are all waiting to see what sort of historical data you are going to present. For an Archaeologist who took comparative religions and a history course who translates Hebrew and Greek, there should be NO PROBLEM at all in simply giving us actual early period textual data that shows the earliest Christians did not believe the cognizant spirits of mankind existed before they were born.

POST THREE OF FIVE FOLLOWS.


[/FONT]

8) LOL! And AGAIN - Go back and read what I wrote. I posted Enoch text proving your interpretation WRONG!!!!!



*

 

[Ingledsva]

POST FIVE OF FIVE

4) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : When the Prophet Sedrach is about to die, the only begotten refers to this same tradition, saying : “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5). Is there anyone thinks this is not referring to Sedrachs soul/spirit?

Clears Comment : As Sedrachs’ body dies, ...” …the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This same tradition of return of the spirit to heaven is referred to in Thomas : “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49), In Apo Ezra the tradition is the same : “Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition: Here, you could try to find a sacred text that says the preexisting spirit of mankind is NOT placed in a mother’s womb, and you could offer other clear supporting texts that make your point. You could offer commentary for us to look at.


*


4) ING - All of the above fit into what I have already said, - imbued with spirit, knew you before you were born, etc.


NONE of them fit what you said about Spirits!


*


5) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : In the early Christian text Clementing recognitions, the Apostle Peter refers to tradition as the Zohar (… At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men…) in the very same context (almost the same words as the Zohar) in explaining to Clement that " that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Clement-Recognitions)

Ingledsva could offer an example of her tradition : Here Ingledsva, you could attempt to find a text that says that God did NOT send pre-existent spirits here to receive bodies (and experience mortality) and then be conducted BACK to the light.


*


5) ING - Again - you didn't read what I said! I said the tradition says that ONE GOD (alone) then created spirit - soul/spirit.

It does not say - AS YOU SAID - that God found himself surrounded by spirit people - and decided to help them become like him!


Doesn't say that ANYWHERE that you have listed.


*


6) Clear offers an example of this ancient tradition : The Sethian literature refers to heaven as the “home” of our spirits, which we then left and came into this world into bodies : “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, …” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition Here, you could try to find a text that says "Our personal spirits did not exist in heaven before coming into this 'world in bodies'."

*


6) ING - I can't believe you are trying to use apocryphal Gnostic writings like TSTOFTG Seth, which wasn't written until the third century. Such texts were only used by small Gnostic groups.

And which still isn't using Spirits in the way you said - and says things like this -

"For those who were in the world had been prepared by the will of our sister Sophia - she who is a whore..."

And I might add doesn't agree with LDS in other areas - such as, it says Jesus wasn't crucified!

You are trying to claim these as legitimate early Christian texts.

These are later Gnostic texts that twist what is actually said in earlier texts, and are not what was believed by early Christians.

This book is written first person - with Jesus supposedly speaking. Obviously third century Gnostics did not meet Jesus, nor are there early texts corroborating their twisted ideas.

They are twisting earlier text, and stating things like YHVH of the Hebrew Bible was not the One True God, but an inferior being called the Demiurge, created by Sophia.

It claims Jesus kicked someone out of their body and took it over.

This is a TOTAL twisting of Jewish and Christian text. It calls YHVH, Adam, and all the prophets - laughingstocks!


No standing what so ever - other then to Gnostics.


*



7) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : Multiple texts describing this tradition are quite consistent. Haggadah uses almost the same words as Jewish Zohar on this point. : “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
Clears Comment : With the generation of Adams soul, all other spirit/souls of mankind were created and existed before they were born and come to earth according to God’s plan.

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : Here, you could attempt fo find a text that said all souls/spirits of men were NOT created together or stored up until the time of their birth to be placed in human body after human body.


*


7) ING - Which again - is not what you were saying. It does not matter if it says YHVH created all spirit/souls and keeps them within itself, or created spirit/souls and holds them in heaven to send down. It still is not saying -

God found himself surrounded by Spirit people , and he then decided to help them become like him.

LOL! At this point I think other LDS here need to step in - as we have had great arguments about LDS believing and teaching certain things, very apparent in the texts you are trying to use, which they claimed were not being taught. They called me a bully for even suggesting it, even though LDS relatives said it to me, - AND HERE YOU ARE! It is priceless!


Jews and Christians do not believe spirit-people are hanging around God waiting to enter bodies and began their journey to Godhood and their own creations.

*


Had to split - too long.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

8) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : You could attempt to find an early text that says “I was just kidding here”, or “the souls/spirits of men that are not yet born didn’t really exist.”


*

8) ING - Already explained - does not mean what you are implying.


*



9) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : You could attempt to find a text that says these spirits do not include the spirits of mankind.


INGLEDSVA, IF YOU ARE WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE, AN ACCOMPLISHED AND EDUCATED ARCHAEOLOGIST WHO TOOK COMPARATIVE RELIGION AND A HISTORY COURSE WHO IS A LINGUIST ABLE TO TRANSLATE HEBREW AND GREEK WHO HAS STUDIED THE ANCIENT SPREAD OF LANGUAGE, PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGION, THEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE US SOME DATA, RATHER THAN MINDLESSLY REPEATING YOURSELF OVER AND OVER.

THE MEMBERS OF THE FORUM HAVE A RIGHT TO SEE YOUR DATA AND LOOK AT IT FOR THEMSELVES. WHERE'S YOUR DATA?

In any case, I honestly hope your life’s journey is Good Ingledsva.

Clear
φυτζνεακσιω
[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]


9) ING - You keep repeating yourself - while proving not a single thing you say.

I have already posted - Enoch - text proving what you are implying is NOT correct.


*

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF FIVE


Clearclaims : The early dominant Judeo-Christian doctrine/tradition expressed in their early sacred/mishnic texts was that spirits placed within the bodies of mankind existed in some form before they were born into this life.

Ingledsvasaid (#1361) : “I have plenty of history under my belt, I am an Archaeologist, I also took Comparative Religions in college, and a separate history course offered by the Catholic Church. I also translate the Hebrew and the Greek. My interest is the ancient spread of language, philosophy, and religion. “


Clear claims : The early dominant Judeo-Christian doctrine/tradition expressed in their early sacred/mishnic texts was that spirits placed within the bodies of mankind existed in some form before they were born into this life.


Regarding the ancient Judeo-Christian tradition that spirits of mankind existed before they were born.

OFFERED BY CLEAR AND INGLEDSVA

1) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition :
Here, Ingledsva (if you can find it), you could try to find a text that says God did NOT fashion All the souls and spirits which would be dealt out to the children of men, etc. FIND SOME SORT OF DATA THAT SUPPORTS YOUR POSITION and give it to us.





2) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : ““The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: “O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which you called me into being. Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. ...In the morning an angel carries here to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crown upon their heads. The Angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” ..... Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows her where she will live and where she will die...and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinner and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, “The time has come for you to go abroad into the open world.” The soul demurs, “Why do you want to make me go forth into the open world?” The angel replies : “Know that as you were formed against your will, so now you will be born against your will, and against your will you shall die, and against your will you shall give account of yourself before the King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be he.” But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
Clears Comment : The context is obvious that this spirit is a personal spirit who is intelligent and communicative and has will. It is obvious that this soul/spirit IS the spirit that is placed into the body of the baby being born.

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : Here, ingledsva, you could try to find a sacred text that says soul/spirits do NOT exist, are NOT cognizant, are NOT intelligent, etc. And you could offer commentary on your example.

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF FIVE

3) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.” After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : You could find a text that shows these “souls/spirits” of the righteous in this “storehouse” does not refer to the souls/spirits of mankind.




4) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : When the Prophet Sedrach is about to die, the only begotten refers to this same tradition, saying : “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5). Is there anyone thinks this is not referring to Sedrachs soul/spirit?

Clears Comment : As Sedrachs’ body dies, ...” …the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This same tradition of return of the spirit to heaven is referred to in Thomas : “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49), In Apo Ezra the tradition is the same : “Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition: Here, you could try to find a sacred text that says the preexisting spirit of mankind is NOT placed in a mother’s womb, and you could offer other clear supporting texts that make your point. You could offer commentary for us to look at.




5) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : In the early Christian text Clementing recognitions, the Apostle Peter refers to tradition as the Zohar (… At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men…) in the very same context (almost the same words as the Zohar) in explaining to Clement that " that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Clement-Recognitions)

Ingledsva could offer an example of her tradition : Here Ingledsva, you could attempt to find a text that says that God did NOT send pre-existent spirits here to receive bodies (and experience mortality) and then be conducted BACK to the light.





6) Clear offers an example of this ancient tradition : The Sethian literature refers to heaven as the “home” of our spirits, which we then left and came into this world into bodies : “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, …” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition Here, you could try to find a text that says "Our personal spirits did not exist in heaven before coming into this 'world in bodies'."




7) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : Multiple texts describing this tradition are quite consistent. Haggadah uses almost the same words as Jewish Zohar on this point. : “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
Clears Comment : With the generation of Adams soul, all other spirit/souls of mankind were created and existed before they were born and come to earth according to God’s plan.

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : Here, you could attempt fo find a text that said all souls/spirits of men were NOT created together or stored up until the time of their birth to be placed in human body after human body.

 

[Clear]

POST THREE OF FIVE

8) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : You could attempt to find an early text that says “I was just kidding here”, or “the souls/spirits of men that are not yet born didn’t really exist.”




9) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)
Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : You could attempt to find a text that says these spirits do not include the spirits of mankind.


INGLEDSVA, IF YOU ARE WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE, AN ACCOMPLISHED AND EDUCATED ARCHAEOLOGIST WHO TOOK COMPARATIVE RELIGION AND A HISTORY COURSE WHO IS A LINGUIST ABLE TO TRANSLATE HEBREW AND GREEK WHO HAS STUDIED THE ANCIENT SPREAD OF LANGUAGE, PHILOSOPHY AND RELIGION, THEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE US SOME DATA, RATHER THAN MINDLESSLY REPEATING YOURSELF OVER AND OVER.

THE MEMBERS OF THE FORUM HAVE A RIGHT TO SEE YOUR DATA AND LOOK AT IT FOR THEMSELVES. WHERE'S YOUR DATA?

In any case, I honestly hope your life’s journey is Good Ingledsva.

INGLEDSVAS TEXTUAL DATA SO FAR

1) Ingledsvas rebutting text Ingledsva said (# 1326)
For instance Enoch uses – “Gen 6:2 The sons of God seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all they chose.”

Ingledsvas comment : In Enoch these Sons of God are turned into angels - however there is no reason to assume such. The Hebrew were called Sons of God. The sons of Seth would be of the Godly line, as opposed to Cain's line, etc. No angels or spirits needed.”

Does anyone see ANYTHING in her rebuttal that shows that the early Christians did not believe the spirits exist prior to our birth?




2) Ingledsvas rebutting text
Ingledsva said (# 1346) Ecc 12:7 is talking about when we die, and uses - ruach - breath/life.

Ingledsva and I both agree that Ecc 12:7 is speaking of death. Since Ingledsva “translates the greek” she will admit that the greek Christian bible (Septuagint) reads
“και επιστρεψη ο χους επι την γεν ως και το πνευμα επιστρεψη προς τον θεον ος εδωκεν αυτο” (And the dust returns to the earth as it was and the SPIRIT returns to the God who gave it. – Just as I translated it) She should also know that the Septuagint was translated BY Jews who were translating INTO greek, what they thought the HEBREW (tanakh) bible meant by it’s language.

Lastly, does anyone see ANYTHING in her rebuttal that shows that the early Christians did not believe the spirits exist prior to our birth?

Next, what was the predominant tradition regarding what happened when a righteous person died and the spirit left the body?

“9 And then the soul of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God with joy. History of the Rechabites 15:9-10; “

And while we are looking at that holy and spotless soul, the holy angels carry it away and salute it, and thus it ascends and goes up from us in glory....1b And when the highest order of cherubim and seraphim receive it, they rise to the gate of the holy Trinity. Then the Son of God receives that soul from their hands and brings it (forward) so that it may worship the father....7a And then God sends that soul to a stately mansion (to await) the day of resurrection for (the rest of our) community. History of the Rechabites 16:1; 1b,7;

Other early texts are quite consistent in their description of this early tradition

“78 Now, concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone forth from the Most High that a man shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. 79 And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God – 80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments....” Fourth Book of Ezra 7; 75-87;
Greek Apocalypse of Ezra is also consistent in its description, When the prophet Ezra asks God about this point, God tells Ezra : “… fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

Clears comment : No explanation or "twisting" is necessary, yhe early CHRISTIAN version of this tradition is quite clear and quite consistent.

3) Ingledsvas rebutting textIngledsva said # 1347 : Job 38:4-7 which you quoted above - is telling us the earth is a flat circle, - a pancake. The words used mean a circle scribed using a string anchored in the center.
​

CLEARS COMMENT ON THIS ATTEMPTED REBUTTAL
As an archaeologist who has a “historical” background, you might want to consider other ancient meanings besides God describing his earth as a flat pancake…

IF you “translate the greek”, then READ at the Greek.

38:7 οτε εγενηθησαν αστρα ημεσαν με φωνη μεγαλη παντες αγγελοι μου.”
Do you think the “stars” are inanimate objects that suddenly gain cogisant personalities and actually “praise God”, or that the "αγγελοι" are something other than angels.

Why not place this text into it’s HISTORICAL context?

Lastly, Does anyone see ANYTHING in her rebuttal or God in her claim that God describes the earth as a "flat pancake" that shows that the early Christians did not believe the spirits exist prior to our birth?





4) Ingledsvas rebutting textIngledsva said # 1364 Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Does anyone see ANYTHING in her rebuttal that shows that the early Christians did not believe the spirits exist prior to our birth?




5) Ingledsvas rebutting text # 1362 8"And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. 10 As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.

19 And Uriel said to me: "Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, here shall they stand, till the day of the great judgement in which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. 2And the women also of the angels who went astray shall become sirens."

10 And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime.

11 Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever.

 

[Clear]

POST FOUR OF FIVE


INGLEDSVA SAYS REGARDING HER QUOTE OF ENOCH (see prior post)
"In 22:10-11 it is talking about the spirit within people AS I SAID
It is very obvious when read in context, that the "spirits" are humans and angels imbued with such by God"


I Cannot believe that you call yourself a “translator” and are able to make so many mistakes both in understanding and meaning in so short a text. READ the ENTIRE chapter. (it's only a few short lines) It "spirits" you are translating as "spirits within people" refers to the GIANTS and their offspring and the text makes a clear distinction between the children of man and “these spirits”.

READ verse 2 – Enoch is told to “go, say to the Watchers of heaven…YE have left the high, and eternal heaven… and begotten Giants (vs 4).. though YE were holy…YOU have defiled yourselves… Enoch is not talking TO or ABOUT the spirits of men.

vs 5 refers to the Offspring of this union, saying :

“I have given THEM wives… vs 6 But YOU were FORMERLY spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal… therefore I have not appointed wives for YOU. As for THE SPIRITUAL ONES… in heaven is THEIR dwelling.

Vs 8 refers to the Giants, saying
“And now, the GIANTS …shall be called evil spirits….and on the earth shall be THEIR dwelling. NONE of this is referring to the spirits of men.

Greek Enoch, vs 8 says “Και νυν οι γιγαντες οι γεννηθεντες απο πνευματων και σαρκις πνευματα πονηρα επι της γης καλεσουσιν αυτους, οτι η κατοικεσις αυτων εσται επι της γες.

Since you “translate the greek”,
1) WHY would you NOT SEE that the verse applies to γιγαντες and not to the spirits of mankind?
2) How did you miss the point that καλεσουσιν applies to the GIANTS in this sentence? (mankind and their spirits are not even referenced in this sentence!)
3) How did you miss the obvious fact that αυτων applies to the evil spirits and not to the spirits of mankind?
4) How can you POSSIBLY be an educated “translator of greek” and make these sorts of very basic and stupid translational errors???
5) What kind of “translator of greek” does this?.

IF you are trying to trick forum members, perhaps you should consider that they are not all gullible.

IF you simply didn’t know the difference then why not admit your ignorance on this subject rather than claim to have a great deal of knowledge in subject you obviously do not possess much knowledge?

Even in English, vs 12 makes an OBVIOUS distinction between “these [evil] spirits” and their operations against “the children of men and against the women…” They are NOT the same.

After such a debacle, we come to the question of “rebuttal”.

Does anyone see ANYTHING in her attempted rebuttal that shows that the early Christians did not believe the spirits exist prior to our birth?



PERHAPS YOU ARE UNCLEAR ON THE CONCEPT OF REBUTTAL – HERE ARE MORE EXAMPLES OF WHAT YOU COULD TRY TO FIND AND OFFER US


10) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : The ancient tradition was that there was a sacred spirit within man that was not in other entities.

This was part of the distinction between honoring mankind and honoring idols as Jubilees makes clear when Abraham tells his Father “What help or advantage do we have from these idols before which you worship and bow down? Because there is not any spirit in them, for they are mute, and they are the misleading of the heart. Do not worship them. Worship the God of heaven.....Jubilees (the book of division) 12: 2,5,6-7;




11) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : In Apo Abraham, Abraham says to the angel during his ascension “...I can no longer see, because I am weakened and my spirit is departing from me.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1-4;
Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : She could try to find and offer text to tell us that it is the spirit of God within us that is “weak” and not Abraham’s spirit.




12) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : In the Adamic ascension literature, we find the same tradition.

When three angels are sent to teach adam, God stood in Adam’s presence and repeats this same early tradition, saying : ‘Adam, why were you sighing in your hearts? Do you not know that I am God who created you, and that I breathed into you a spirit of life for a living soul?’ The Apocalypse of Adam 2:1-6-7, ch 3:1;

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : She could attempt to find and offer an early sacred text that tells us that it is God’s spirit or another spirit that is meant by this tradition rather than Adam’s spirit itself not pre-existing his body.




13) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : In the early Cave of Treasures literature, the angel Lucifer reveals that he is also spirit and he makes the distinction between dust and his spirit
.
When he is required to honor Adam at Adam’s creation “...he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not worship him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust." Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”;

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : she could find an early sacred text that tells us that Lucifer’s spirit did not pre-exist his existence upon the earth, but that it was God’s spirit within Lucifer that actually exists.

 

[Clear]

POST FIVE


14) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : One of the earliest and most frequent appellations for the Lord God, the Father of the Savior, WAS “The Lord of the Spirits” , thus he is called at the Naming (chosing/authorizing) of the savior :

2 At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time (Lit “before the beginning [or “head”] of days,&#8221, 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. 5 All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. 7 And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression (together with) all its ways of life and its habits in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” 1st Enoch 48:1-7
Clears comment : The reason that he was called, THE LORD OF SPIRITS is because that IS what he was.

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : She could attempt to find and offer an early sacred text that shows that “The Lord of the Spirits” really meant something else other than what it means. (or that only his friends called him that. Sort of a “nick name”, or something he made up to impress the other spirits.




15) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : Adam is commanded to procreate and “fill the earth” with children , thus it was said of “the Lord of Spirits”. They shall bless, praise, and extol (you) saying “‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord of the Spirits; the spirits fill the earth.” 1st Enoch 9:11-12;

I think one of Ingledsva’s difficulties with early historical texts is that they are disorienting to her because she is not a historian of the texts and certain phrases and contexts used. For example, the placing of a spirit into a mortal body, or the removal of the spirit from the body upon death were likened unto placing a garment upon a spirit (or removing the garment at death). For example :



16) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : “8 And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch* from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10

This imagery of extracting a person from his garment is close to the terminology of Daniel 7:15, “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”

The same idea is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath within its sheath.” (If Ingledsva “translates the hebrew” she should recognize “The clothes of my glory” as a transparent Hebraism)...

Philip, in his prayer before martyrdom, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),

Origen (On First Principles, 2.3.7) speaks of the best and purest spirits, who must have some kind of body, being changed according to their degree of merit into an ethereal condition

As another example, Ingledsva refers in #1361 to an early tradition “We are told humans are a like a pot which GOD places spirit within.”.

She can tell you how she personally interprets this tradition, but that will not tell you how early CHRISTIANS interpreted this tradition. However, references to early sacred Christian literature can tell us much about how THEY interpreted and applied such traditions.

“For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. And from one to the other there is no discrepancy, not so much as a third of a hair, for all the creation of the Most High was according to height, measure, and standard. And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5;

The early Judeo-Christians had multiple, detailed textual descriptions and discussions of the nature of this spirit-body relationship. In an almost-mishnic presentation of this theme and how the spirit and body are judged, Fragment one from the babylonian Talmud (Ezekiel, fragment one, ch 2) describes this tradition as follows:



17) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : “The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.”

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : Ingledsva could find a sacred text and demonstration a tradition that the spirit doesn’t separate from the body.




18) Clear offers an example of ancient tradition : A short example occurs here when a Lame Man is compared to a spirit who cooperates with an otherwise healthy, but Blind man (who is likened unto a body) in a garden. The lame asks to ride on the back of the Blind man and together, they commit offenses. The text continues :

“What did he (the king) do? He made the lame man ride upon the blind and he judged them as one. .So the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it in the body, he also judges them as one. For it is said, ‘He will call to the heavens from above and to the earth, so he might judge his people.’ ‘He will call to the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ –this to the body.” Ezekiel of Ezekiel Frag one, ch2 - explanation from the Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b;

In a different version of this story, the text is slightly different :
“What then does the just judge do? Realizing in what manner both had been joined, he places the lame man on the blind man and examines both under the lash. And they are unable to deny; they each convict the other. The lame man on the one hand saying to the blind man, “Did you not carry me and lead me away? And the blind man to the lame, “Did you yourself not become my eyes? In the same way the body is connected to the soul and the soul to the body, to convict (them) of (their) common deeds. And the judgment becomes final for both body and soul, for the works they have done whether good or evil.” Apocryphon of Ezekiel frag 1 vs 6-11;


I've got to get back to work. History is fascinating and I wish you the best of luck in your journey toward faith and knowledge Ingledsva.


Clear
φυειφυσεειω

 

[Ingledsva]

POST ONE OF


Clear claims : The early dominant Judeo-Christian doctrine/tradition expressed in their early sacred/mishnic texts was that spirits placed within the bodies of mankind existed in some form before they were born into this life.

Ingledsva said (#1361) : “I have plenty of history under my belt, I am an Archaeologist, I also took Comparative Religions in college, and a separate history course offered by the Catholic Church. I also translate the Hebrew and the Greek. My interest is the ancient spread of language, philosophy, and religion. “

“... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)
”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

1385 : LOL! And AGAIN - Go back and read what I wrote. I posted Enoch text proving your interpretation WRONG!!!!!

Clear claims : The early dominant Judeo-Christian doctrine/tradition expressed in their early sacred/mishnic texts was that spirits placed within the bodies of mankind existed in some form before they were born into this life.


Regarding the ancient Judeo-Christian tradition that spirits of mankind existed before they were born.

OFFERED BY CLEAR AND INGLEDSVA

1) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition :
Here, Ingledsva (if you can find it), you could try to find a text that says God did NOT fashion All the souls and spirits which would be dealt out to the children of men, etc. FIND SOME SORT OF DATA THAT SUPPORTS YOUR POSITION and give it to us.





2) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : ““The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: “O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which you called me into being. Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. ...In the morning an angel carries here to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crown upon their heads. The Angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” ..... Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows her where she will live and where she will die...and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinner and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, “The time has come for you to go abroad into the open world.” The soul demurs, “Why do you want to make me go forth into the open world?” The angel replies : “Know that as you were formed against your will, so now you will be born against your will, and against your will you shall die, and against your will you shall give account of yourself before the King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be he.” But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will. Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)
Clears Comment : The context is obvious that this spirit is a personal spirit who is intelligent and communicative and has will. It is obvious that this soul/spirit IS the spirit that is placed into the body of the baby being born.

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : Here, ingledsva, you could try to find a sacred text that says soul/spirits do NOT exist, are NOT cognizant, are NOT intelligent, etc. And you could offer commentary on your example.

I don't say such very often - but you have a very obvious problem reading/understanding what people are actually saying!

You are repeating the same crap over and over.


I have repeated over and over to you that they DO have spirit/spirit/soul.


Regardless of this repeating, you just keep posting more crap saying the word spirit, - BUT NOTHING THAT ACTUALLY SHOWS YOUR INTERPRETATION OF SUCH BEING CORRECT!

In other words - what you have written above - AGAIN - does not say God found himself surrounded by "spirit-people" - whom he then decided to help become like himself.

Original, and early, Hebrew and Christian religion, DID NOT believe such, nor the idea you are promoting, that YHVH is just one of many becoming Gods.

The Jewish/Christian idea is that God is all that was - and that ONE GOD creates spirit/soul and places such into earth bodies, etc.

Also - as stated earlier, Enoch is from a small Gnostic group in the Third century.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

*

FOR CLEAR -


Are you purposefully trying to make these posts with such huge print, and so long, and so repetitive, that no one will actually read or respond to your erroneous understanding of early Jewish and Christian religion?


Brake all that crap down into individual parts, and normal print size, and post them as such, so they can be adequately answered, and understood by everyone!



*

 

[Ingledsva]

Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.” After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition : You could find a text that shows these “souls/spirits” of the righteous in this “storehouse” does not refer to the souls/spirits of mankind.

1. And as USUAL you are misrepresenting what I actually said about Judaic/Christian ideas about the creation of spirits.

2. You are showing NOTHING to prove your position on spirits.

3. I've already discussed the Enoch idea behind "spirit/soul."


Perhaps you should go back and actually read it?


*

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva post #1326 Ingledsva explains “No angels or spirits needed.”,
In post # 1385 she explains what she meant by “No angels or spirits needed”.
It actually meant I have repeated OVER and OVER that there IS/ARE SPIRIT/SPIRITS.

[FONT=&quot]
This admission is very, very good Ingledsva.

My claim is that the early Christians believed that the spirits within mankind existed before they were placed in bodies.

If we now, suddenly agree on this point, this is good. If we do not, then you need to clearly explain your position and give us data rather than repeat the same thing over and over.

As far as giving readers less data, you must remember that there are some individuals reading this who ARE historically minded and want the data to look at and read. I told the LDS that their position on this point was quite secure and thus, some of this information will mean something to them, but it will pass over your head since your context is not the same as the ancient Judeo-Christian worldviews.


You keep referring to a generalization of "spirit-people". If this is YOUR theory, then you should give us data as to why YOU believe this. Is it NOT my theory nor claim.

Clear
[/FONT]

 

[Desert Snake]

1. And as USUAL you are misrepresenting what I actually said about Judaic/Christian ideas about the creation of spirits.

2. You are showing NOTHING to prove your position on spirits.

3. I've already discussed the Enoch idea behind "spirit/soul."


Perhaps you should go back and actually read it?


*

Sorry if this is redundant, can someone provide verses from the BIBLE that tell us about the creation of souls?
thanks.

 

[Ingledsva]

4) Clear offered an example of this ancient tradition : When the Prophet Sedrach is about to die, the only begotten refers to this same tradition, saying : “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5). Is there anyone thinks this is not referring to Sedrachs soul/spirit?

Clears Comment : As Sedrachs’ body dies, ...” …the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This same tradition of return of the spirit to heaven is referred to in Thomas : “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49), In Apo Ezra the tradition is the same : “Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

Ingledsva could offer a rebuttal example of her tradition: Here, you could try to find a sacred text that says the preexisting spirit of mankind is NOT placed in a mother’s womb, and you could offer other clear supporting texts that make your point. You could offer commentary for us to look at.

AGAIN misrepresenting what I actually said about Jewish/Christian ideas about Spirit.

AGAIN, I said they HAVE Spirit, and Spirit/soul, - placed into the earth body, etc.

I'm guessing you are going to do this ad nauseam, as you have nothing to actually show that advocates your position on what these texts say.

The post above does not counter what I have said -

Nor does it do anything to prove what you imply for these texts!


*

 

[Ingledsva]

ingledsva post #1326 ingledsva explains “no angels or spirits needed.”,
in post # 1385 she explains what she meant by “no angels or spirits needed”.
It actually meant i have repeated over and over that there is/are spirit/spirits.

[font=&quot]
this admission is very, very good ingledsva.

my claim is that the early christians believed that the spirits within mankind existed before they were placed in bodies.

if we now, suddenly agree on this point, this is good. If we do not, then you need to clearly explain your position and give us data rather than repeat the same thing over and over.

As far as giving readers less data, you must remember that there are some individuals reading this who are historically minded and want the data to look at and read. I told the lds that their position on this point was quite secure and thus, some of this information will mean something to them, but it will pass over your head since your context is not the same as the ancient judeo-christian worldviews.


You keep referring to a generalization of "spirit-people". If this is your theory, then you should give us data as to why you believe this. Is it not my theory nor claim.

Clear
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LOL! Take things out of context much - in an attempt to APPEAR right?

"No angels or spirits needed" was in reply to the "Sons of God" in a specific text, - in which I told you "No angels or spirits needed" AS the HEBREW were called SONS OF GOD!

my claim is that the early christians believed that the spirits within mankind existed before they were placed in bodies.

BULL! I said at the beginning of this discussion - and over and over - that they had Spirit, spirit/soul in bodies, etc. That is their NORMAL belief.


YOU - on the other hand- are telling us YHVH is just one of many "Gods" whom found himself surrounded by Spirit-people - whom he decides to help become like himself. In other words you are telling us that existing Spirit-people become Gods.

That is not in the original, or early, Jewish/Christian religious literature.


ALSO - AGAIN - DON't TWIST - what I actually said.


I said nothing about less data.


I suggested you use normal type size, and break multi idea/text posts down, so each idea, or text example, can be BETTER addressed, - and people might actually read them.


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[Nymphs]

Are you purposefully trying to make these posts with such huge print, and so long, and so repetitive, that no one will actually read or respond to your erroneous understanding of early Jewish and Christian religion?

Brake all that crap down into individual parts, and normal print size, and post them as such, so they can be adequately answered, and understood by everyone!

I'm with you on this. :yes:

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm with you on this. :yes:

Yep, it is really irritating when they do this. LOL!



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