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Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
ING - We all know what that last means. :D Run along now.


Your purpose here is to "quote mine" out of context ancient "quotes," in an attempt to prove your LDS beliefs.


There are no real Biblical Scholars (outside LDS) that believe the LDS doctrine is actually from early Christianity, and the other Christian denominations got it wrong.




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Is this really fair? Whether one agrees with all his beliefs or not, presenting evidence from texts is always valid as an argument. We use reasoning from various thinkers to figure out what the most likely answers are to theological questions.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Quatermass said:
The fact is that Joseph Smith, a man who has been in court on charges of fraud numerous times, has never provided any proof of his claims whatsoever. Nor has any other member of the LDS.
I'm not sure this is relevant.
If, say, someone comes out with a 'golden calf' as a Christmas decoration, and promotes it as something to be revered, do we have Scripture that specifically tells us that golden calfs as Christmas decorations are forbidden, or bad, or unbiblical? Of course not. What we do is compare the question to existing Scripture i.e. Old Testament text referring to golden calfs as 'false idols'. Obviously we can then draw the conclusion that as Jesus maintained a continuation of the Covenant, this OT example can be used to make a reasonable decision whether golden calfs as Christmas decorations are appropriate.


How would it not be relevant?


Multiple fraud charges, no proof for what he claims, and he called himself a Prophet of God that received his info from two shining "personages" angels/the Lord/etc. (multiple accounts)????

It is logical to ask - why would God chose a fraud to reveal "new information" to?

Especially when that information supposedly included that, "all religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines,".


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misanthropic_clown

Active Member


quatermass said:
The fact is that Joseph Smith, a man who has been in court on charges of fraud numerous times, has never provided any proof of his claims whatsoever. Nor has any other member of the LDS.


I'm not sure this is relevant.

If, say, someone comes out with a 'golden calf' as a Christmas decoration, and promotes it as something to be revered, do we have Scripture that specifically tells us that golden calfs as Christmas decorations are forbidden, or bad, or unbiblical? Of course not. What we do is compare the question to existing Scripture i.e. Old Testament text referring to golden calfs as 'false idols'. Obviously we can then draw the conclusion that as Jesus maintained a continuation of the Covenant, this OT example can be used to make a reasonable decision whether golden calfs as Christmas decorations are appropriate.

Surely, the questions of Joseph Smith's character and the complete lack of positive evidence for the Book of Mormon narrative (against a backdrop of rather overwhelming contradictory evidence) are in fact highly relevant in assessing the likelihood that he was a prophet of a supernatural deity?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Is this really fair? Whether one agrees with all his beliefs or not, presenting evidence from texts is always valid as an argument. We use reasoning from various thinkers to figure out what the most likely answers are to theological questions.


My problem isn't that he used quotes, but that he "quote mined."


Out of context - to try and prove an idea.


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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Surely, the questions of Joseph Smith's character and the complete lack of positive evidence for the Book of Mormon narrative (against a backdrop of rather overwhelming contradictory evidence) are in fact highly relevant in assessing the likelihood that he was a prophet of a supernatural deity?


Not necessarily going to disagree, but do you have any specifics rather than generalities?
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
Not necessarily going to disagree, but do you have any specifics rather than generalities?

Well, I don't think it is useful to try and lay out the entire case, but I will give some examples tying in to my statement.

As to Joseph Smith's character, we know he was convicted over his treasure seeking activities during his youth, which utilised a seer stone in a disturbing parallel to his translating technique. We know that, once he was established, he was brought up on charges after he ordered the Mormon Expositor printing press to be destroyed after it published critical material. We also know that once he was in a position of power he used this to obtain a number of women as his wives, often in direct contradiction to the "code of conduct" he formalised for these matters in Doctrine and Covenants. To me, these are actions more akin to a narcissist than a servant of god, and cast doubts upon his integrity.

I'm sure we are both aware that there is a stark lack of archaeological evidence for the events of the Book of Mormon, and that it mentions animals and technologies that were known not to be present in America during the time frame. In addition, the genetic evidence has overturned the claim that modern day American Indians are descendents of the Lamanites of the BOM narrative, to such an extent that the church has indeed retreated from it. The direct transcription of 'typos' from the KJV of the Bible also points towards the human construction of the BOM, and the making up of the Book of Abraham from Egyptian funerary documents shows that Smith was quite adept at making up narratives from thin air.

I forget who said it, probably some general authority, but if the BoM doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the prophetic claims of Smith fall with it. I don't think any objective reader of the evidence would conclude that the BoM is what it purports to be.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Well, I don't think it is useful to try and lay out the entire case

It would be useful to give specific arguments, backed up by factual evidence.

As to Joseph Smith's character, we know he was convicted over his treasure seeking activities during his youth, which utilised a seer stone in a disturbing parallel to his translating technique.

Not sure what the accusation is here. Please be more specific.

We know that, once he was established, he was brought up on charges after he ordered the Mormon Expositor printing press to be destroyed after it published critical material.

Libel is a crime; Joseph was in a position to uphold the law. Conflicted interpretation of that law and his power to enforce it led to his charges. Note that MANY jurists shared his interpretation of the law, including President John Adams (see the Alien and Sedition Act).

We also know that once he was in a position of power he used this to obtain a number of women as his wives, often in direct contradiction to the "code of conduct" he formalised for these matters in Doctrine and Covenants.

Please be more specific as to how this contradicted the "code of conduct." Contradictions would be important. His actions seem perfectly in line with the Book of Mormon doctrines on polygamy, so I'd really like to hear about any contradictions with the D&C.

I'm sure we are both aware that there is a stark lack of archaeological evidence for the events of the Book of Mormon, and that it mentions animals and technologies that were known not to be present in America during the time frame.

There's actually considerable archaeological evidence FOR the Book of Mormon. The inclusion of a few anachronisms (anageolisms?) can easily be explained by one or more translation issues. Do you think the writings of Christopher Columbus would be declared fraud because they speak of lions in America? Or, for that matter...Indians?

In addition, the genetic evidence has overturned the claim that modern day American Indians are descendents of the Lamanites of the BOM narrative, to such an extent that the church has indeed retreated from it.

The church has clarified a position that had been frequently misinterpreted. Plenty of scholars and church leaders had said that the Lamanites were not the only ancestors of the Native Americans. Most mainstream members missed that memo, though, so the leaders made it clearer.

The genetic evidence is no threat to what the BoM actually says, only to the lazy-brained popular interpretations. Hugh Nibley was predicting Asiatic DNA for the modern Native Americans in 1952, and he was exactly right. How do you explain the fact that the DNA evidence supports his hypothesis?

The direct transcription of 'typos' from the KJV of the Bible also points towards the human construction of the BOM, and the making up of the Book of Abraham from Egyptian funerary documents shows that Smith was quite adept at making up narratives from thin air.

The direct translation of typos is meaningless; IF the document was fabricated using large amounts of plagiarism, then it would contain some typos. IF the document was translated using word choices of someone who had large passages of the Bible memorized, it would contain some typos.

I'd like to hear your answer on how Joseph Smith managed to CORRECT several typos, even as a let a few others slip by. After all, the fact that he corrected ANY is far more important than the fact that he missed a few. If I gave you a page of very complex calculus problems, the fact that you got some wrong is weak evidence of a claim that "you don't know calculus," while getting ANY of them right is strong evidence against that claim.

I forget who said it, probably some general authority, but if the BoM doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the prophetic claims of Smith fall with it. I don't think any objective reader of the evidence would conclude that the BoM is what it purports to be.

Sounds like B. H. Roberts. And he was right.
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
Not sure what the accusation is here. Please be more specific.
Let me draw it in the form of two narratives. The first narrative is that Smith used fake seer stones in a fraudulent manner throughout his youth, and continued this practice when he used “seer stones” to translate the BoM. The second narrative is that Smith used fake seer stones in his past, but the method god wanted him to use was also, by coincidence, the exact same methodology as his previous scams. I’m sure you can see where one might get suspicious.
Libel is a crime; Joseph was in a position to uphold the law. Conflicted interpretation of that law and his power to enforce it led to his charges. Note that MANY jurists shared his interpretation of the law, including President John Adams (see the Alien and Sedition Act).
I’ve never met that interpretation before, so thanks for the information. I do, however, maintain that seeking to destroy material critical to oneself is a narcissistic tendency. Also, I would not consider the contents to be libellous – the only real accusation made in it is that Smith was practicing polygamy on a wide scale, which is widely accepted now, though the full extent is a matter of debate, leading us neatly to…
Please be more specific as to how this contradicted the "code of conduct." Contradictions would be important. His actions seem perfectly in line with the Book of Mormon doctrines on polygamy, so I'd really like to hear about any contradictions with the D&C.
I don’t know how much you have read concerning Smith’s polygamy, but to briefly spell out the code of conduct for anyone unfamiliar, it essentially boils down to the fact that everything must be done with the approval of the primary wife (Emma Smith) and subsequent wives must be virgins and not be vowed to another man. There are instances where Smith took on wives who were already married, and there is also evidence that Emma did not know the full extent of Smith’s polygamy. I recommend No Man Knows My History and In Sacred Lonliness on these counts.
There's actually considerable archaeological evidence FOR the Book of Mormon. The inclusion of a few anachronisms (anageolisms?) can easily be explained by one or more translation issues. Do you think the writings of Christopher Columbus would be declared fraud because they speak of lions in America? Or, for that matter...Indians?
As for archaeological evidence, I’d like you to present anything from a non-LDS scholar that supports the BoM narrative.
As for “translation issues”, I’m not sure why they would be present in a Book allegedly communicated word for word via an infallible deity, but I can accept some things might go slightly awry if that’s what you want to claim. But what of steel technology? One would imagine with all the wars and battles, involving great multitudes of people, we might have stumbled upon at least a handful of examples of the swords and chariots and armour.
The church has clarified a position that had been frequently misinterpreted. Plenty of scholars and church leaders had said that the Lamanites were not the only ancestors of the Native Americans. Most mainstream members missed that memo, though, so the leaders made it clearer.

The genetic evidence is no threat to what the BoM actually says, only to the lazy-brained popular interpretations. Hugh Nibley was predicting Asiatic DNA for the modern Native Americans in 1952, and he was exactly right. How do you explain the fact that the DNA evidence supports his hypothesis?
True, it was never claimed that they were the only contributors – I think the wording (which I would like to reiterate was in the introductory pages of the BoM, not some obscure footnote) referred to them as the principal ones. Good for Hugh Nibley – I’m pretty sure most sensible people presumed a migration via Asia. Without knowing his exact words, I would presume he didn’t go so far as to say the origins would be entirely from Asia. And the fact is, the BoM describes a number of migration events from Israel, and as of yet, the genetic evidence in support of that narrative is exactly zero. That’s not lazy-brained popular interpretation – that’s the entire absence of positive genetic evidence for the narrative of the BoM
The direct translation of typos is meaningless; IF the document was fabricated using large amounts of plagiarism, then it would contain some typos. IF the document was translated using word choices of someone who had large passages of the Bible memorized, it would contain some typos.

I'd like to hear your answer on how Joseph Smith managed to CORRECT several typos, even as a let a few others slip by. After all, the fact that he corrected ANY is far more important than the fact that he missed a few. If I gave you a page of very complex calculus problems, the fact that you got some wrong is weak evidence of a claim that "you don't know calculus," while getting ANY of them right is strong evidence against that claim.
Again, we are talking about a book supposedly translated from an ancient record via divine intervention. These passages should contain no trace of the typos and interpretation issues that stemmed from the translation into English.
As to corrections, I don’t know of any examples so I can’t respond to them. Also, the most fitting analogy would be thus:
You get an essay from a student. You notice some strange grammatical/interpretation errors. You look at one of the course textbooks, and find the same errors. Not all of them are there, and the student seems to have corrected some on the material. All the same, it is clear that the textbook was the source material for the student’s essay. By all means, take the claim that Smith was plugging in gaps with his interpretation of the KJV of the Bible, but that is inconsistent with his alleged word for word translation process and exactly what we would expect to see if Smith was constructing a narrative from a mixture of imagination and source material.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan, the Father of Lies. I believe this because Joseph Smith came up with the opinion which is false that the Church had fell into total apostasy which is completely untrue. All one needs to do is look back into history to see that the Catholic Church has been in continuous existence since 33 AD and at no time in history has the Catholic Church ever changed its teachings to become contradictory to something it previously taught. Yes, doctrine does develop but it does not become contradictory to what was previously taught. It may do that for an individual teacher or a heresy but the Catholic Church has never changed a teaching so that it was contradictory to what had originally been taught. In short, the Catholic Church has never officially taught error on faith and morals but Joseph Smith believed that not only had this happened but that the Church had fell into total apostasy despite the fact that the Bible says the Gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church and the fact that Jesus told us He would be with us until the end of time. If the Catholic Church had ever fallen into total apostasy then that would mean that Jesus Christ was a failure which He most certainly is and was not. After all, if He were a failure, He would not be the Son of God, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. That's my opinion.

Also, Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon which is supposed to be another testament of Jesus Christ. But the fact is that early on in the Church they taught that the deposit of faith had been sealed. Everything that Jesus Christ wanted us to know was taught to His disciples while He was alive and by the Holy Spirit after He ascended into Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that there will be no new revelation but Joseph Smith believed that the Book of Mormon was a new revelation. He also had the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants which could be counted as new revelation according to him. Here is the Catholic Church on the deposit of faith:

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
There will be no further Revelation
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 1

So anyway, I could go on about why I believe Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan who is the Father of Lies but it would probably take a lot more space than this. Anyway, the above is some of what I believe on the subject.
 

McBell

Unbound
In my opinion, Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan, the Father of Lies. I believe this because Joseph Smith came up with the opinion which is false that the Church had fell into total apostasy which is completely untrue. All one needs to do is look back into history to see that the Catholic Church has been in continuous existence since 33 AD and at no time in history has the Catholic Church ever changed its teachings to become contradictory to something it previously taught. Yes, doctrine does develop but it does not become contradictory to what was previously taught. It may do that for an individual teacher or a heresy but the Catholic Church has never changed a teaching so that it was contradictory to what had originally been taught. In short, the Catholic Church has never officially taught error on faith and morals but Joseph Smith believed that not only had this happened but that the Church had fell into total apostasy despite the fact that the Bible says the Gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church and the fact that Jesus told us He would be with us until the end of time. If the Catholic Church had ever fallen into total apostasy then that would mean that Jesus Christ was a failure which He most certainly is and was not. After all, if He were a failure, He would not be the Son of God, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. That's my opinion.

Also, Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon which is supposed to be another testament of Jesus Christ. But the fact is that early on in the Church they taught that the deposit of faith had been sealed. Everything that Jesus Christ wanted us to know was taught to His disciples while He was alive and by the Holy Spirit after He ascended into Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that there will be no new revelation but Joseph Smith believed that the Book of Mormon was a new revelation. He also had the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants which could be counted as new revelation according to him. Here is the Catholic Church on the deposit of faith:



Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 1

So anyway, I could go on about why I believe Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan who is the Father of Lies but it would probably take a lot more space than this. Anyway, the above is some of what I believe on the subject.

So your whole stance on Joseph Smith is nothing more than your belief that God has nothing more to say to mankind?
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
So your whole stance on Joseph Smith is nothing more than your belief that God has nothing more to say to mankind?

Well, pretty much. But I also believe he was wrong because he failed to take into account the parts of the Bible which said the Church would never completely apostatize.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Well, pretty much. But I also believe he was wrong because he failed to take into account the parts of the Bible which said the Church would never completely apostatize.
Nowhere in the Bible is such a claim made. Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles warned of an imminent apostasy. Paul, in particular, frequently expressed his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to them, are these:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1) the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

Sounds pretty complete to me. You are mistaken if you believe that the apostasy spoken of means that no truth whatsoever would be left in Christianity. That's not what it means at all. It simply means that men would change the Church Christ established and that false doctrines would be introduced. The organizational structure of Christ's Church would also be altered over time. The Bible makes no claims that these events wouldn't take place; on the contrary, it specifically says that they would.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Nowhere in the Bible is such a claim made. Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles warned of an imminent apostasy. Paul, in particular, frequently expressed his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to them, are these:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1) the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

Sounds pretty complete to me. You are mistaken if you believe that the apostasy spoken of means that no truth whatsoever would be left in Christianity. That's not what it means at all. It simply means that men would change the Church Christ established and that false doctrines would be introduced. The organizational structure of Christ's Church would also be altered over time. The Bible makes no claims that these events wouldn't take place; on the contrary, it specifically says that they would.

Thanks for your reply Katzpur. I'd have to disagree with you though. It's right here:

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Matthew 16:18 RSV-CE)

If the Church had fallen into total apostasy then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against it.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
(Matthew 28:19-20 RSV-CE)

If God is with us until the close of the age (when He returns) then how on earth could His Church fall into total apostasy? Wouldn't He have to abandon us in order for the Church to fall into total apostasy?

Anyway, that's my opinion.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I've still yet to see any proof behind the claims made by Joseph Smith.
Unlike mainstream Christianity, of course. :rolleyes: Can you name one religion that anyone who has ever lived has proven to be true?

Maybe I'll get rich by claiming some deity spoke to me and lure people into believing it.
Who knows, you might. All Joseph Smith ever got for making that claim was murdered.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thanks for your reply Katzpur. I'd have to disagree with you though. It's right here:

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(Matthew 16:18 RSV-CE)

If the Church had fallen into total apostasy then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against it.
I suspect you really don't know what that statement would have even meant to Peter or to any of the other Apostles. How do you believe they would have interpreted the phrase: "the gates of hell"?

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
(Matthew 28:19-20 RSV-CE)

If God is with us until the close of the age (when He returns) then how on earth could His Church fall into total apostasy? Wouldn't He have to abandon us in order for the Church to fall into total apostasy?

Anyway, that's my opinion.
As I already said, I don't believe Christ ever abandoned us. He is not to blame at all. It was fallible human beings who changed His Church. And again, "total apostasy" doesn't mean "having no truth." It simply means that by shortly after the deaths of His Apostles, the Church He had established failed to continue to exist as the entity He established. That's not rocket science and it doesn't take a religious scholar to see it.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Unlike mainstream Christianity, of course. :rolleyes: Can you name one religion that anyone who has ever lived has proven to be true?

I might concede your claim if it wasn't for the fact I have also demanded (but resigned myself to the fact there will never be) proof of the claims behind any religion.

Who knows, you might. All Joseph Smith ever got for making that claim was murdered.

Rich then murdered. :p
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
My problem isn't that he used quotes, but that he "quote mined."


Out of context - to try and prove an idea.


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Don't we all quote mine? That leads us to discrediting text as invalid, if necessary. I have no problem doing that, btw..Notice I tend to remain within certain canon to cross reference other ideas within that canon.
If, on the other hand, we accept that extra-canonical text is valid, that can be presented within the context of the argument.
Obviously, we all need to be on the 'same page' in respect to text we are agreeing is valid for the argument.
On the other hand, if one, say, states that OT cannot be used as valid cross reference to NT, we would then need to provide an argument that the NT voids credibility of OT.
That's just an example, but we need to be fair in textual analysis, we need to maintain the aspect of intellectual honesty in the argument.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I might concede your claim if it wasn't for the fact I have also demanded (but resigned myself to the fact there will never be) proof of the claims behind any religion.
You're right, but then most people who are believers aren't looking for proof. If you are, you'll never find them. Glad you figured that out before wasting any more of your time.

Rich then murdered. :p
Joseph Smith lived comfortably during the later years of his relatively short life, but to say that he was ever wealthy is just flat out wrong.
 
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