Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Desert Snake]

Actually I don't believe Jesus does.


Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.



*

Judaism does not use the entire Tanakh in the same manner as Christianity does. Christianity places equal importance on the entire Tanakh, Judaism doesn't.


You therefore cannot cross argue points contained within the Tanakh between Christianity & Judaism.

Christianity=NT & Tanakh. Christianity clearly has a Hell.

 

[Ingledsva]

...



TO FORUM MEMBERS: Below are examples from the verses I posted, both in English AND in greek both from the LXX (the Greek Old Testament most used by early Christians) and from a NA-27 Critical Greek New Testament.

IF ANYONE wishes to know how ANY of the major Greek Uncials, minscules, or papyri read in any instance related to this point on “hell” / “αδησ “, I can provide any variant reading as I have access to all important variants. I assure you that the English and greek text I am providing is accurate. Though I would have translated the greek sentences differently in some cases, I agree with the translators that greek "hades" / αδησ is appropriately rendered as english "hell". The alpha in αδησ has a breathing mark that shows it is pronounced as HADEES in greek, which is our anglicized "HADES".

If I need to, I will post an actual PICTURE of the critical greek text if anyone other than ingledsva needs convincing in order to put this completely silly and unnecessary controversy to rest.


For examples : I have offered both english (KJV) and greek in red, with english "HELL" and the greek "Hades" / "αδησ" underlined and bolded and the portion translated in red so as to allow anyone to compare english to greek.

example 1)
KJV Deut 32:22 reads For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
The Greek LXX reads : Οτι πυρ εκκεκαυται εκ του θυμου μου καυθησεται εως αδου κατωτατου

example 2)
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
The Greek LXX reads : Βαθυτερα δε των εν αδου..


example 3)
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
The Greek LXX reads : …γυμνος ο αδης ενωπιον αυτου...


example 4)
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
The Greek LXX reads : αποστραφητωσαν οι αμαρτωλοι εις τον αδην...


example 5)
Psalms 16:10 (15:10 lxx) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The Greek LXX reads : οτι ουκ εγκαταλειψεις την ψυχην μου εις αδην...


example 6)
Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
The Greek LXX reads : και καταβητωσαν εις αδου ζωντες οτι πονηρια εν ταις παροικαις αυτων ...


example 7)
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και ερρυσω την ψυχην μου εξ αδου κατωτατου.


example 8)
Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
The Greek LXX reads : κινδυνοι αδου ευροσαν με...


example 9)
Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
The Greek LXX reads : οδοιαδουοοικοςαυτησ


example 10)
Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και επι πεταυρον αδου συναντα.


example 11)
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
The Greek LXX reads : Αδηςκαιαπωλειαφανεραπαρακυριω


example 12)
Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations
The Greek LXX reads : Ο αδης κατωθεν επικρανθη σθναντησας σοι...


post two of two follows

LOL! Dude! Why are you trying to use English translations, of Greek translations, of Hebrew texts?


Be honest now - and post what the actual Hebrew uses! :yes:



*

 

[Desert Snake]

LOL! Dude! Why are you trying to use English translations, of Greek translations, of Hebrew texts?


Be honest now - and post what the actual Hebrew uses! :yes:



*

.......

"Hades" is like our version of 'hell' , but slightly different because of the language change. It MEANS an underworld, LIKE OUR HELL exept not as bad. It's an obvious translation of what we think of as "Hell", but they had to make it understandable!

 

[Ingledsva]

Judaism does not use the entire Tanakh in the same manner as Christianity does. Christianity places equal importance on the entire Tanakh, Judaism doesn't.


You therefore cannot cross argue points contained within the Tanakh between Christianity & Judaism.

Christianity=NT & Tanakh. Christianity clearly has a Hell.

Christianity takes the Satan from the Hebrew - and CHANGES the character into an autonomous evil character.


Christianity takes the Sheol/holding grave idea - and mixes it with pagan ideas and CHANGES it.


There is no "Hell" in the Bible. LATER Preachers, not understanding, and being in contact with pagan ideas about the underworld, created the commonly held Christian ideas about a fiery Hell.


Jesus came out of a Hebrew culture, - ONE God - souls held in Sheol until judgment, etc.


He was claiming to be the Moshesh, not a God, or part of a trinity God.


You folks need to get a clue.


*

 

[Desert Snake]

Christianity takes the Satan from the Hebrew - and CHANGES the character into an autonomous evil character.


Christianity takes the Sheol/holding grave idea - and mixes it with pagan ideas and CHANGES it.


There is no "Hell" in the Bible. LATER Preachers, not understanding, and being in contact with pagan ideas about the underworld, created the commonly held Christian ideas about a fiery Hell.


Jesus came out of a Hebrew culture, - ONE God - souls held in Sheol until judgment, etc.


He was claiming to be the Moshesh, not a God, or part of a trinity God.


You folks need to get a clue.


*

No, what you are not understanding is that Christianity is a religion aside from the texts, like 'judaism'. Until you understand this, you won't have a clue as to what anything means.
The problem is that you aren't applying the proper parameters to the research, same way the argument that people are referred to as 'gods' is not applying the proper framework to Judaism.
There IS a Hell in Christianity.

 

[Ingledsva]

LOL! Dude! Why are you trying to use English translations, of Greek translations, of Hebrew texts?


Be honest now - and post what the actual Hebrew uses!

.......
"Hades" is like our version of 'hell' , but slightly different because of the language change. It MEANS an underworld, LIKE OUR HELL exept not as bad. It's an obvious translation of what we think of as "Hell", but they had to make it understandable!

Incorrect - that grouping was all HEBREW texts.


He was trying to use English translations, of Greek translations, of Hebrew texts.


There is NO correlation. Sheol is the grave-holding place, until judgment.


Absolutely NO fiery Hell idea in the Hebrew Sheol.


Sheol, Gehenna, etc, do not mean a fiery Hell for punishment.


*

 

[Ingledsva]

No, what you are not understanding is that Christianity is a religion aside from the texts, like 'judaism'. Until you understand this, you won't have a clue as to what anything means.
Have you read early descriptions Of Christians? Like, the earliest? start there. Do you realize that many of the first converts were Essenes? Start there. The problem is that you aren't applying the proper parameters to the research, same way the argument that people are referred to as 'gods' is not applying the proper framework to Judaism.
There IS a Hell in Christianity.

That is baloney. Christianity comes out of Judaism -

they try to use the Hebrew texts to prove Jesus is the awaited Moshesh -

They try to use Isaiah as a prophecy of Jesus - which it isn't.


They have taken Satan - and changed him.


They have taken the Sheol idea - and changed it.


They reference back to it constantly in an attempt to give themselves legitimacy.


They very obviously choose to associate themselves for - again - legitimacy - while screwing up the texts.


*

 

[Desert Snake]

They reference back to it constantly in an attempt to give themselves legitimacy.




*

........

Judaism DOES NOT PLACE EQUAL VALUE to the entire Tanakh. Christianity CANNOT be using various portions of the Tanakh as Judaic text for legitimacy, because JUDAISM DOESN'T USE THE ENTIRE TANAKH IN THAT MANNER!

 

[Ingledsva]

........

Judaism DOES NOT PLACE EQUAL VALUE to the entire Tanakh. Christianity CANNOT be using various portions of the Tanakh as Judaic text for legitimacy, because JUDAISM DOESN'T USE THE ENTIRE TANAKH IN THAT MANNER!

Don't be ridiculous and try to twist this.


The NT very obviously - refers back to the Jewish texts.


They claim Jesus is the awaited one from the Jewish texts.


They even have Jesus referring back to them - "I said you are Gods."



*

 

[Desert Snake]

Don't be ridiculous and try to twist this.


The NT very obviously - refers back to the Jewish texts.


They claim Jesus is the awaited one from the Jewish texts.






*

It isn't twisting it. It's a basic fact. Much of the "Judaic text" you are referring to is not placed at the same value as other Jewish text in Judaism. This is why Christianity & Judaism have different Prophets (OT). Christianity cannot be using Jewish Text to legitimize itself according to Judaism, when Judaism itself is not even recognizing much of that Scripture as Prophetical.

 

[Ingledsva]

...


example 18)
Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
The Greek NEW Testament text reads : … εωςαδουκαταβιβασθηση.




...


Clear
φθτυφυσιτζω

OK - I'm not going to do every one of these - I've already done the Hebrew - so this is your first listed NT.


It is talking about being at the heights/power and being brought down to the GRAVE.

You missed context in the previous sentence.


But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven (the heights/power), shalt be thrust down to hell (hades - Sheol - the grave.)


They compare them to Tyre and Sidon - whom as noted - are waiting in the GRAVE for judgment!

They are not put in Hell - just as Tyre and Sidon - are NOT! They wait in their GRAVES - for the Judgment - Just as the Jewish texts tell us.



*

 

[Desert Snake]

Oh my goodness.....Hades is like another version of our Hell, I already explained this. It indicates an underworld, it's just not as bad as our Hell. Obviously when they translated the meaning into Greek, it meant something similar to "Hades". Which.......indicates that it is exactly the same Hell concept we have today.

 

[Clear]

post one of two

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”


Ingledsva : Disciple was simply trying to inform you regarding the existence of “hell” (hades / “αδης” in the biblical text. There is NO shame in admitting that disciple was correct and that you made a mistake.

You are again becoming irrational and confused and are displaying simple recalcitrance and ignorance by claiming “Hell” doesn’t exist in the Greek Biblical text. Obviously the greek αδης DOES exist as my examples show and the english text DO translate greek hades (Gk αδη&#962 AS “HELL”.

You admitted (in post # 1454 above) that you had not found the term for “hell” “in the original Greek.” All I did was give the forum members multiple objective verses where “Hell” does appear and is used in biblical text AND where the base greek actually DOES read “Hades”. You do not need to argue against obvious data just to be recalcitrant, UNLESS YOU HAVE BETTER DATA TO OFFER (rather than simply engaging in another set of unending denials or changing claims).

Why don't you try reason and logic and DATA? For example, you could try to offer data that shows the translators of english bibles who use "HELL" in translating the greek word "HADES" (gk αδη&#963 were all wrong to do so? (i.e. that HADES doesn't mean and should never mean "hell"?)



TO FORUM MEMBERS: Below are examples from the verses I posted, both in English AND in greek both from the LXX (the Greek Old Testament most used by early Christians) and from a NA-27 Critical Greek New Testament.

IF ANYONE wishes to know how ANY of the major Greek Uncials, minscules, or papyri read in any instance related to this point on “hell” / “αδησ “, I can provide any variant reading as I have access to all important variants. I assure you that the English and greek text I am providing is accurate. Though I would have translated the greek sentences differently in some cases, I agree with the translators that greek "hades" / αδησ is appropriately rendered as english "hell". The alpha in αδησ has a breathing mark that shows it is pronounced as HADEES in greek, which is our anglicized "HADES".

If I need to, I will post an actual PICTURE of the critical greek text if anyone other than ingledsva needs convincing in order to put this completely silly and unnecessary controversy to rest.


For examples : I have offered both english (KJV) and greek in red, with english "HELL" and the greek "Hades" / "αδησ" underlined and bolded and the portion translated in red so as to allow anyone to compare english to greek.

example 1)
KJV Deut 32:22 reads For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
The Greek LXX reads : Οτι πυρ εκκεκαυται εκ του θυμου μου καυθησεται εως αδου κατωτατου

example 2)
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
The Greek LXX reads : Βαθυτερα δε των εν αδου..


example 3)
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
The Greek LXX reads : …γυμνος ο αδης ενωπιον αυτου...


example 4)
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
The Greek LXX reads : αποστραφητωσαν οι αμαρτωλοι εις τον αδην...


example 5)
Psalms 16:10 (15:10 lxx) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The Greek LXX reads : οτι ουκ εγκαταλειψεις την ψυχην μου εις αδην...


example 6)
Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
The Greek LXX reads : και καταβητωσαν εις αδου ζωντες οτι πονηρια εν ταις παροικαις αυτων ...


example 7)
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και ερρυσω την ψυχην μου εξ αδου κατωτατου.


example 8)
Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
The Greek LXX reads : κινδυνοι αδου ευροσαν με...


example 9)
Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
The Greek LXX reads : οδοιαδουοοικοςαυτησ


example 10)
Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και επι πεταυρον αδου συναντα.


example 11)
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
The Greek LXX reads : Αδηςκαιαπωλειαφανεραπαρακυριω


example 12)
Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations
The Greek LXX reads : Ο αδης κατωθεν επικρανθη σθναντησας σοι...


post two of two follows

 

[Clear]

Post two of two

example 13)
Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και εταπεινωθης εως αδου.


example 14)
Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living
The Greek LXX reads : ..οι κατεβησαν εις αδου εν οπλοις πολεμικοις...


example 15)
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
The Greek LXX reads : εαν κατορυγωσιν εις αδου, εκειθεν η χειρ μου ανασπασει αυτους...


example 16)
Jonah 2:3 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The Greek LXX reads : και εισηκουσε μου εκ κοιλιας αδου κραυγης μου φωνης μου.


example 17)
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people
The Greek LXX reads : ...ο επλατυνε καθως αδης την φυχην αυτου και ουτος ως ο θανατος...


example 18)
Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
The Greek NEW Testament text reads : … εωςαδουκαταβιβασθηση.


example 19)
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


example 20)
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : οτι ουκ εγκαταλειψεις την ψυχην μου εις αδου...


example 21)
Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ..και εχω τας κλεις του αδου και του θανατου.


example 22)
Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ...ο θανατος και ο αδης ακολουθει μετ αυτο...


example 23)
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ...και θανατος και αδης εδωκαν τους εν αυτοις νεκρους...

I did notice that as I reviewed the greek text, I initially and inadvertently included two examples that used rendered death/θανατος as "hell" instead of Hades/αδης as hell but corrected this in this post (I made this list on a napkin at lunch so cut me a bit of slack...), but all others use HADES / αδησ as "hell" and other examples could be included that I did not include.



FORUM MEMBERS :

To those who read greek : Nothing needs to be said to you as it is quite clear to you that the poster disciple is correct that “HELL” both appears in the biblical text AND that Jesus uses “HELL” in his teachings.

To those who do not read greek : I have proven that αδησ exists in multiple examples in biblical texts. It is also very, VERY easy to confirm that the translators of english bibles were correct in translating greek Hades / αδησ as "Hell" in english bibles. for example, you can simply cut and paste the words

Definition of αδης

(greek hades) into a google search and confirm for yourselves that this IS the word for HADES / HELL in greek. Look at the references I gave and see if the word appears consistently in the examples in the place where English translators say it means “hell”.


The poster named disciple is quite correct that “HELL” / Hades, does exist within the pages of the bible AND that Jesus uses “HELL” / Hades in his teachings. He did NOT suggest an argument over the specific MEANING of "hell" as Ingledsva seems to now want to have, merely that "Hell" is used in the biblical text and that Jesus taught concerning hell. disciple is correct in these specific points regardless of any other change of subject.

Clear

Ingledsva’s reply was (#1460) :
“LOL! Dude, as usual you are making stupid statements about me. I am well aware of ALL the words in Tanakh and NT erroneously translated as the Christian Fiery "Hell," which they are not. And the ridiculousness of trying to turn Satan into some autonomous evil being. And the ridiculousness of trying to say a Babylonian King is Satan, under a name that isn't even in the text, Lucifer, etc. And trying to turn Isaiah's son Immanuel - into a prophecy of Jesus. Christians make a hell of a lot of mistakes in translating the texts , - or perhaps they did it on purpose to further their ends!”



Much of Ingledsvas reply is irrelevant ranting on “fiery” hell, and regarding satan, and a Babylonian king; about Lucifer; a prophecy about Jesus; and a complaint that Christians borrowed doctrines from Jews and changed them and that Christians “make a hell of a lot of mistakes in translating the texts”. She DID offer a different and personal interpretation of what Jesus might have meant by his reference to hades/hell. Readers can make their own determination of the value of her interpretation, however, the quote still refers to "hell" / greek hades, it simply attempt to change the meaning of the word Hades/ Hell.

Otherwise, there is no particular data, but it is a series of new personal claims.


None of this ranting simply admits the obvious truth that disciple was correct in his original and specific claim that the biblical texts speak of “hell” as the greek hades.
The examples show that the silly argument against this specific claim is obviously put to rest for good.



Christian texts DO refer to and interpret the existence of a Hell/hades



Clear

 

[Ingledsva]

example 13)
Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και εταπεινωθης εως αδου.


example 14) Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living
The Greek LXX reads : ..οι κατεβησαν εις αδου εν οπλοις πολεμικοις...


example 15)
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
The Greek LXX reads : εαν κατορυγωσιν εις αδου, εκειθεν η χειρ μου ανασπασει αυτους...


example 16)
Jonah 2:3 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The Greek LXX reads : και εισηκουσε μου εκ κοιλιας αδου κραυγης μου φωνης μου.


example 17)
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people
The Greek LXX reads : ...ο επλατυνε καθως αδης την φυχην αυτου και ουτος ως ο θανατος...


example 18)
Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
The Greek NEW Testament text reads : … εωςαδουκαταβιβασθηση.


example 19)
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


example 20)
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : οτι ουκ εγκαταλειψεις την ψυχην μου εις αδου...


example 21)
Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ..και εχω τας κλεις του αδου και του θανατου.


example 22)
Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ...ο θανατος και ο αδης ακολουθει μετ αυτο...


example 23)
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ...και θανατος και αδης εδωκαν τους εν αυτοις νεκρους...

Post two of two Ingledsva’s reply was (#1460) :
“LOL! Dude, as usual you are making stupid statements about me. I am well aware of ALL the words in Tanakh and NT erroneously translated as the Christian Fiery "Hell," which they are not. And the ridiculousness of trying to turn Satan into some autonomous evil being. And the ridiculousness of trying to say a Babylonian King is Satan, under a name that isn't even in the text, Lucifer, etc. And trying to turn Isaiah's son Immanuel - into a prophecy of Jesus. Christians make a hell of a lot of mistakes in translating the texts , - or perhaps they did it on purpose to further their ends!”



Much of Ingledsvas reply is irrelevant ranting on “fiery” hell, and regarding satan, and a Babylonian king; about Lucifer; a prophecy about Jesus; and a complaint that Christians borrowed doctrines from Jews and changed them and that Christians “make a hell of a lot of mistakes in translating the texts”. She DID offer a different and personal interpretation of what Jesus might have meant by his reference to hades/hell. Readers can make their own determination of the value of her interpretation, however, the quote still refers to "hell" / greek hades, it simply attempt to change the meaning of the word Hades/ Hell.

Otherwise, there is no particular data, but it is a series of new personal claims.


None of this ranting simply admits the obvious truth that disciple was correct in his original and specific claim that the biblical texts speak of “hell” as the greek hades.
The examples show that the silly argument against this specific claim is obviously put to rest for good.



Christian texts DO refer to and interpret the existence of a Hell/hades



Clear

Round and round you go proving nothing.


I noted - AGAIN - at the top - Number 13 - HEBREW text - which you are insisting is "HELL"

And you are AGAIN wrongly using GREEK to come up with this.


The Hebrew word is SHEOL - GRAVE - holding place until Judgment.


Here are some correct English translations -

(1568 Bishops) Thou wentest straight to kinges with oyle and diuers oyntmentes [that is] thou hast sent thy messengers farre of, and yet art thou fallen into the pit.

(1889 Darby) And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst multiply thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers afar off, and didst debase thyself unto Sheol.

(1898 YLT) And goest joyfully to the king in ointment, And dost multiply thy perfumes, And sendest thine ambassadors afar off, And humblest thyself unto Sheol.


These older translations recognize the word is Sheol/Grave/Pit, - NOT HELL.


Number 14 - AGAIN a Hebrew text which you are trying to say is Hell using Greek. The word again is SHEOL Grave.

Ee 32:26 There is Meshech, Tubal, and all their multitude, their sepulchers round about them, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living.

Eze 32:27 And they lie not with the mighty, that are fallen of the uncircumcised, who are gone down to Sheol/the Grave with their weapons of war; and whose swords are laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.



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[Clear]

1) REGARDING THE EXISTENCE OF "HELL" / HADES IN GREEK TEXTS (AND WHETHER JESUS TAUGHT CONCERNING HELL)

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”
Ingledsva replied : “I haven't found such yet, when read in the original Greek.” – Ingledsva, post # 1454

It’s already too late Ingledsva. The horse you rode in on when you claimed you could not find “hell” in the “original greek” has already died the moment posters saw 23 examples of where it did exist in the greek and readers could see it with their own eyes and two of the quotes regarding hades came from quotes where Jesus himself was speaking.


Even your attempt to “quote mine” two quotes from old and less correct texts from the 1800s (and a third from the 1500s c.e. for heavens sake!...I didn't know whether to yawn or laugh....) was never going to be of help to you in showing hades did not exist in the greek. Your horse is already dead. There is no need to keep trying to kick it.

Disciple remains correct in his statement that “Hell” / “Hades” etc. exists in the greek biblical texts and in Christian tradition.



2) REGARDING THE SEPARATE CLAIM THAT THE JEWISH VERSION OF HELL IS DIFFERENT THAN THE CHRISTIAN VERSION

If you can find someone who cares to argue whether your new argument as to whether you Jewish version of this concept is more or less correct than the Christian version of the conditions after this life, feel free.

In any case, I still hope your journey in this life becomes satisfying to you and you find happiness in this life ingledsva.



3) TO ALL OTHER FORUM MEMBERS WHO ARE READING THIS ARGUMENT AS TO WHETHER HADES/HELL EXISTS IN BIBLICAL GREEK TEXTS :


A) IS THERE ANYONE WHO NEEDS ANY MORE EXAMPLES WHERE HADES/HELL IS FOUND IN THE GREEK? (or who cannot SEE where hades / αδησ is found in the above 23 examples???)


B) DO I NEED TO POST ACTUAL PICTURES OF THE GREEK TEXT FOR ANY POSTER? (MY EXAMPLES WERE ALL TYPED FROM BASE GREEK FROM NA-27, THE STANDARD CRITICAL GREEK TEXT AND FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT SEPTUAGINT GREEK)


C) IS THERE ANYONE….ANYONE WHO CANNOT NOT SEE FROM THE MANY EXAMPLES, THAT HADES / HELL IS INDEED FOUND IN THESE TEXTS? (other than ingledsva&#8230


If not, then I think this is yet another argument that is concluded and dead, since it is too obvious that "hades"/αδησ/"hell" is found in the text to debate it's existence within the text.


Clear
φυτυσιτζφυω

 

[Ingledsva]

1) REGARDING THE EXISTENCE OF "HELL" / HADES IN GREEK TEXTS (AND WHETHER JESUS TAUGHT CONCERNING HELL)

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”
Ingledsva replied : “I haven't found such yet, when read in the original Greek.” – Ingledsva, post # 1454

It’s already too late Ingledsva. The horse you rode in on when you claimed you could not find “hell” in the “original greek” has already died the moment posters saw 23 examples of where it did exist in the greek and readers could see it with their own eyes and two of the quotes regarding hades came from quotes where Jesus himself was speaking.


ING - LOL! Wrong again. The Greek is Hades, - "NOT HELL" - and Hades is not the "fiery Hell for sinners." This is very obvious when you read the whole text in context.


Even your attempt to “quote mine” two quotes from old and less correct texts from the 1800s (and a third from the 1500s c.e. for heavens sake!...I didn't know whether to yawn or laugh....) was never going to be of help to you in showing hades did not exist in the greek. Your horse is already dead. There is no need to keep trying to kick it.


ING - "Quote mine!" LOL! ALL of your Hebrew text ideas are wrong as I said. NO Hell there. Just Sheol, grave/resting place of the dead until judgment.

SO - I took the first two NT texts - THAT YOU POSTED - to show that again "Hell" is not intended. They refer to the GRAVE, as is VERY obvious by the reference to A LATER JUDGMENT!

I'm not going to translate them all. I don't have to. I have shown you to be wrong in everything that I answered.

You just quote mined "ENGLISH" translations with the word "HELL" and copy/pasted them onto a page.

I have already shown that ALL of those from the Hebrew - ARE NOT HELL - they are SHEOL - which even our Jewish members have told you is the GRAVE/holding place of the dead until judgment.

I also showed - taking YOUR first two NT quotes - that Hades is not being used as meaning a "Fiery Hell," but AGAIN - the grave.


And it is absolutely hilarious for you to call the older texts "less correct" when they use the ACTUAL Hebrew word - SHEOL. LOL!




Disciple remains correct in his statement that “Hell” / “Hades” etc. exists in the greek biblical texts and in Christian tradition.


ING - NOPE! The word is Hades - and is not being used in the sense of the later Christian "Fiery Hell" idea. In fact - in most places it is being used just like SHEOL - the Grave.



2) REGARDING THE SEPARATE CLAIM THAT THE JEWISH VERSION OF HELL IS DIFFERENT THAN THE CHRISTIAN VERSION

If you can find someone who cares to argue whether your new argument as to whether you Jewish version of this concept is more or less correct than the Christian version of the conditions after this life, feel free.

In any case, I still hope your journey in this life becomes satisfying to you and you find happiness in this life ingledsva.


ING -Again HILARIOUS! There is NO "more or less correct,' The Hebrew Sheol is Grave/holding place until judgment - that is a FACT.

Jesus was a Jew - with a background in Jewish religion - whom said he didn't come to change the law.- FACT

Early Christianity - though now using Greek - still have the same Sheol concept! - FACT!

It is only after their contact with other Pagan groups that the Sheol idea - changes to the now know "Fiery Hell" idea. - FACT!



3) TO ALL OTHER FORUM MEMBERS WHO ARE READING THIS ARGUMENT AS TO WHETHER HADES/HELL EXISTS IN BIBLICAL GREEK TEXTS :


A) IS THERE ANYONE WHO NEEDS ANY MORE EXAMPLES WHERE HADES/HELL IS FOUND IN THE GREEK? (or who cannot SEE where hades / αδησ is found in the above 23 examples???)




ING - LOL! You keep making this incorrect statement as if it is a fact.

Obviously HADES exists in the NT Greek. HELL is a LATER ENGLISH translation.

The discussion is - does Hades mean SHEOL, as continuing their Jewish past - or do we consider HADES to translate "ACCURATELY" into the LATER ENGLISH translation of "HELL" - especially as we know the that tortured sinner "HELL" idea only came in after Pagan contact!


B) DO I NEED TO POST ACTUAL PICTURES OF THE GREEK TEXT FOR ANY POSTER? (MY EXAMPLES WERE ALL TYPED FROM BASE GREEK FROM NA-27, THE STANDARD CRITICAL GREEK TEXT AND FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT SEPTUAGINT GREEK)


C) IS THERE ANYONE….ANYONE WHO CANNOT NOT SEE FROM THE MANY EXAMPLES, THAT HADES / HELL IS INDEED FOUND IN THESE TEXTS? (other than ingledsva…)


If not, then I think this is yet another argument that is concluded and dead, since it is too obvious that "hades"/αδησ/"hell" is found in the text to debate it's existence within the text.


Clear
φυτυσιτζφυω

LOL! You can post Greek all you want - and the GREEK HADES - won't magically become the LATER INCORRECT - ENGLISH - TRANSLATION of HELL - meaning a Fiery HELL where people are tortured in Judgment for sins."

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The next three in your list – just for you. LOL!

example 15)
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
The Greek LXX reads : εαν κατορυγωσιν εις αδου, εκειθεν η χειρ μου ανασπασει αυτους...

ING – AGAIN – OBVIOUSLY – we are talking about SHEOL as Grave/pit. People don’t dig into Hell, or climb up to Heaven! LOL! Amos is OT and again using SHEOL – grave/pit.

Amo 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Amo 9:3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:


Darby – again has it right -

(Darby) Amos 9:2 Though they dig into Sheol, (a grave/ pit) thence shall my hand take them; and though they climb up to the heavens (the sky/aloft/heights), thence will I bring them down;

Amos 9:3 and though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, there will I command the serpent, and it shall bite them;

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example 16)
Jonah 2:3 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The Greek LXX reads : και εισηκουσε μου εκ κοιλιας αδου κραυγης μου φωνης μου.

ING - AGAIN – OT – SHEOL -

Jon 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

(Darby) and he said: I cried by reason of my distress unto Jehovah, and he answered me; Out of the belly of Sheol cried I: thou heardest my voice.

The WHALE’S BELLY – His GRAVE!

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example 17)
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people
The Greek LXX reads : ...ο επλατυνε καθως αδης την φυχην αυτου και ουτος ως ο θανατος...

ING - Here is the Leeser translation – Again it is SHEOL – grave.

(Leeser) And though the wine-drunken traitor, the proud man, whose house will not stand, who enlargeth his desire is the grave, and is like death, which cannot be satisfied,—though he gather unto him all the nations, and assemble unto him all the people:



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[Desert Snake]

LOL! You can post Greek all you want - and the GREEK HADES - won't magically become the LATER INCORRECT - ENGLISH - TRANSLATION of HELL - meaning a Fiery HELL where people are tortured in Judgment for sins."





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,,

Yes, why don't we assume that the writers of the text were completely misleading us, or better yet, totally ignorant of their own language.

I'm really done arguing this with you, you simply don't seem to be listening.
Hades is an approximation of our 'Hell'. It's an approximation, not exactly the same meaning because they were limited to using descriptors in the languages used.

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva : You continue to beat your completely dead horse. You are simply repeating claims over and over that are only vaguely related to disciples actual claim.



We’ve already shown conclusively that hades exists in the greek texts where you were “unable” to find it. Thus, you can never prove your point that “hades” doesn’t exist regardless of how many unrelated points you try to prove.

HOWEVER, you may certainly and properly try to create a different premise regarding what “hell” / “hades” meant to early Judaism or to the early Christianity movement of specific ages (since the concept evolved and did not remain static). You and I may certainly have areas of agreement in this area. For example, like you, I also, do not believe that “hell” initially existed as a “fiery” place where individuals who did not accept Jesus are roasted and tortured for eternity simply because they did not or could not “accept Jesus”.

However, this was not disciples specific claim.

Disciple’s claim was that “hell” / “hades” exists in early Christian texts and that Jesus “taught” concerning “hell” / “hades”. He remains correct in this claim and you remain in error on this specific point.



Why don’t you try calming down and think about what it is you are actually trying to prove to everyone and then describe in a clear and a rational and a logical manner, just what it is you want to prove to the forum members and then see if you have anyone interested in discussing a CLEAR and a SPECIFIC and LOGICAL and RATIONAL, DATA BASED premise with you?

For example, I believe all readers of this thread have probably already decided for themselves that hades/hell existed in Christian texts and in Christian theology.

However, If you still want to argue with someone, you could try a different premise.

For example, Christianity does have the doctrine of hell, and you seem to have an interest in proving that that the Christian early version of “hell” / “hades” was not a “fiery place” where individuals roast in a fiery torture for not accepting Jesus. (I could agree with that argument&#8230. try a rational, logical, and specific approach...


In any case, disciple remains very correct in his specific claim that hades / hell, exists in early biblical texts and that Jesus taught it as well. The fact that it exists in Christian theology is DIFFERENT than what hades/hell means in a specific time period and in a specific christian movement.

Clear

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva : You continue to beat your completely dead horse. You are simply repeating claims over and over that are only vaguely related to disciples actual claim.



We’ve already shown conclusively that hades exists in the greek texts where you were “unable” to find it. Thus, you can never prove your point that “hades” doesn’t exist regardless of how many unrelated points you try to prove.



ING - Why do you keep lying about what I said?

I am aware of ALL words In the Hebrew and Greek that are later mistranslated "in English" as "Hell."


I have proven - using YOUR posted verses - that they are using "Hades" in the "Grave/Pit/Sheol sense. They ARE NOT using it in the MISTRANLATED English - Hell sense - a fiery Hell of torture.




HOWEVER, you may certainly and properly try to create a different premise regarding what “hell” / “hades” meant to early Judaism or to the early Christianity movement of specific ages (since the concept evolved and did not remain static). You and I may certainly have areas of agreement in this area. For example, I also, do not believe that “hell” exists as a “fiery” place where individuals who did not accept Jesus are roasted and tortured for eternity simply because they did not or could not “accept Jesus”. However, this was never disciples claim.

Disciple’s claim was that “hell” / “hades” exists in early Christian texts and that Jesus “taught” concerning “hell” / “hades”. He remains correct in this claim and you remain in error on this specific point.


ING - According to the Greek texts, Hades exists, - not the English translation Hell ,which means something else.



Why don’t calm down and think about what it is you are actually trying to prove to everyone and then describe in a clear and a rational and a logical manner, just what it is you want to prove to the forum members and then see if you have anyone interested in discussing a CLEAR and a SPECIFIC and LOGICAL and RATIONAL, DATA BASED premise with you?


ING - I already have proven multiple of your posted "HELL" texts to be absolutely WRONG!


For example, I believe all readers of this thread have probably already decided for themselves that hades/hell existed in Christian texts and in Christian theology.


ING - I don't know what your problem is here - that I have to repeat over and over - but the words are Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in the Greek. Hell is an English translation that is incorrect - to the original meaning.



However, If you still want to argue with someone, you could try a different premise.

For example, Christianity does have the doctrine of hell, and you seem to have an interest in proving that that the Christian early version of “hell” / “hades” was not a “fiery place” where individuals roast in a fiery torture for not accepting Jesus. (I could agree with that argument…). try a rational, logical, and specific approach...


ING - LOL! "Modern" Christianity has a mistranslated "Hell" with Pagan torture and fire of sinners tacked on.


Christian Bible text, on the other hand, has "Hades," which as shown to you over and over, has a meaning like "Sheol" grave/pit/holding for judgment, - not the Pagan fiery Hell.


In any case, disciple remains very correct in his specific claim that hades / hell, exists in early biblical texts and that Jesus taught it as well.

Clear

And AGAIN NOT SO - See above.




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