Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[ZooGirl02]

I suspect you really don't know what that statement would have even meant to Peter or to any of the other Apostles. How do you believe they would have interpreted the phrase: "the gates of hell"?

As I already said, I don't believe Christ ever abandoned us. He is not to blame at all. It was fallible human beings who changed His Church. And again, "total apostasy" doesn't mean "having no truth." It simply means that by shortly after the deaths of His Apostles, the Church He had established failed to continue to exist as the entity He established. That's not rocket science and it doesn't take a religious scholar to see it.

As for your first question, Jesus had already taught about Hell before He said this to Saint Peter so Peter would have had the Catholic belief of Hell since Jesus taught Catholicism. That's my opinion.

As for your second question, I'd have to say that if Christ never abandoned the Church but yet it completely apostatized then Christ failed and since Christ is God, He cannot fail. Again, my opinion.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Unlike mainstream Christianity, of course. Can you name one religion that anyone who has ever lived has proven to be true?

Exactly

 

[jtartar]

The Old Testament prophet Amos taught that "the Lord God will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). During the difficult infant days of Christianity Paul taught the same principle: that prophets and apostles would always serve as the foundation of Christ's true church. He declared that prophets and apostles would be needed for the work of the ministry until all come in the unity of the faith in Jesus Christ (see Ephesians 4:11-13).

These scriptures make it clear that wherever the true gospel of Christ is ministered, it will be directed through a prophet of God. The Savior also knew that false prophets would rise up and decieve many, and so gave this piece of counsel concerning true prophets: "ye shall know them by their fruits... a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:16-18).

Undoubtedly many false prophets have come forth since the time of Christ. We have even seen some in our own day such as David Koresh, and Warren Jeffs, who each have been exposed by the evil fruits of their works.

In harmony with the teachings of Amos, Paul, and Christ himself, true prophets have also come forth in the due time of the Lord, and heeded the divine call to reveal truth and minister the true gospel of Christ. After a long season in which a famine of prophetic leadership prevailed, God chose once again to call a prophet.

In the spring of 1820 God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ appeared in person to a mere boy and commissioned him to a divine work. Joseph Smith was called to be the mouthpiece of God to man, just as all the holy ancient prophets had been. Through this prophet, God restored truths that had been corrupted, priesthood authority that had been lost, and a church organization that had been dormant since the days of the early Apostles.

The fruits that have proceeded from the ministry of Joseph Smith are many and are far from evil. The good fruits produced by this tree include a worldwide church that is active and dilligent in the preaching of salvation through Christ, the establishment of additional scripture that further clarifies the doctrines of the gospel, the providing of relief to the poor and the needy, and the rearing of families with strong moral values just to name a few.

Joseph Smith was not a perfect man, but he was a good man who was called of God to be a prophet to the world. And though he was persecuted for his testimony of Christ, he was dilligent and faithful in his call as a true prophet of God.

All honest seekers of truth must at least consider with sincerity the mission and fruits of the prophet Joseph Smith. Either Joseph was indeed a true prophet or he was a deceiptful fraud.

If he was a true prophet then the doctrines and authority that he restored are pure and true.

If he was not a true prophet...
- either the major fruits of his labor must be evil
- or somehow good fruit came from a corrupt tree despite what Christ taught

So where do you stand?

Polaris,
Consider this: It seems that there can be no prophets that prophesy anything different than what is already prophesied in God's word, The Holy Bible. This is told to us plainly at Gal 1:6-9, where we are told that if anyone comes to you and tells you anything, even an Angel out of heaven, that is different that what is written in the Bible, he is CURSED, older Bibles say ANATHEMA.
The reason for this is twofold, One is because everything needed for salvation is written in the Bible, so no more is needed. Two is because, if other prophets came with different prophecies than are already written, we would not know which to believe. That is why God had His word written down so all could understand what is needed for us to gain salvation, and if ANY PROPHET comes and tells something other than what is already written, he is a FALSE PROPHET.
One other point, there are two different kinds of PROPHETS, #1 is a prophet that prophesies something new, #2 is a prophet that explains things that are already written in the Bible, of which there are many.

 

[Katzpur]

Polaris,
Consider this: It seems that there can be no prophets that prophesy anything different than what is already prophesied in God's word, The Holy Bible. This is told to us plainly at Gal 1:6-9, where we are told that if anyone comes to you and tells you anything, even an Angel out of heaven, that is different that what is written in the Bible, he is CURSED, older Bibles say ANATHEMA.

I seriously have to shake my head in amazement at posts like this. There is no reference whatsoever to "the Bible" in Galations 1:6-9. There is also no reference in those verses to prophesying.

For the benefit of whose on the forum who don't know right off the top of their heads what this passage of scripture is saying, here it is:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

This passage is warning against people who pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ, which (judging from what it's actually saying) was something that was taking place at the time these words were spoken. There was no "Bible" at that time, and all of the books of the "Bible" you know and love had not even been written at that time.

 

[Ingledsva]

As for your first question, Jesus had already taught about Hell before He said this to Saint Peter so Peter would have had the Catholic belief of Hell since Jesus taught Catholicism. That's my opinion.

As for your second question, I'd have to say that if Christ never abandoned the Church but yet it completely apostatized then Christ failed and since Christ is God, He cannot fail. Again, my opinion.

Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"


*

 

[Clear]

I am back from traveling and the discussion at hand has left the restoration and re-adoption of the early Judeo-Christian Doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of Spirits within mankind, and turned (presently) to the concept of apostasy and evolution away from early, authentic Christian Doctrine and practice.

One poster in another forum made the point in his Opening Post as follows :

“The normal Roman Catholic defense of the divine preservation of the Church (it's infallibility in the person of the Pope, Church Councils, etc..) and the common mainstream Protestant defense of the perfection of the canon and the texts they have access to and use seem to be based on the same type of thinking. "God wouldn't let his ____ (insert Church or Bible) fall into error." "His" being of course "the church/book that I follow."

I find this interesting especially when it comes to the Protestant side. Certain Protestants will state that the mainstream Catholic Church went into apostasy and left the teachings of God for the traditions of man. Often they will say that this took place around the time of Constantine. The normal RC defense will be an appeal to the idea that God wouldn't let that happen and He would intercede to prevent the Church from going into error. The Protestant responder will often point out that this is magical thinking and that 1. they didn't prove it and 2. it's one of those un-falsifiable statements that have no place in a logical discussion if you don't have actual evidence to back it.

Interestingly though these same Protestants will often revert to the same defense when questions regarding the canon and the accurate handing down of the biblical texts come up. Someone might point out that various collections of scriptures were used by different local churches and Christian schools of thought and that the idea of the canon they currently use now as THE true authoritative one was something hashed out by the Catholics whom they view as being subverters of the faith in the first place. The Protestant will then say "but God wouldn't let the Bible be messed up like that he would make sure everyone gets the right books despite the people involved."

That's really no different then the RC argument for the Church being infallible and protected though is it? Is " God just wouldn't let that happen" a logical or valid argument? The use of circular argument /reasoning (example- interpreting the text whose protection is being debated in the first place in order to show that it apparently supports the idea of the Bible being divinely protected) doesn't seem to help much either. Without some outside verifiable evidence it seems like it would be an empty assertion.”

I think his posts observation was insightful.


The fear underlying the terrible question “What am I to believe if God doesn’t keep my church or my texts (or my pastor, or my interpretation, etc.) from error?” is an inadequate defense for either claiming the correctness of a hundred conflicting claims or for any religious position.

Interestingly, in discussing Judaic doctrinal apostasy with a Jewish friend, he also denied that the Jews ever lost Gods favor (since I had pointed out that the Jews no longer had prophetic revelation as the basic characteristic of their religion anciently; they no longer had the ability to create scriptures ; they no longer had their levitical priesthood ; they no longer had their temple, etc). HIS defense also centered on this same claim that “God would never have permitted his chosen people to believe in errors and apostatize away from revealed, true religion”.


REGARDING THE TENDENCY TO APOSTATIZE FROM ORIGINAL RELIGION

When discussing Jewish’s motives to “turn away” from the gospel, another Christian posters’ similar insightful question for Christians was : “Do you really think we do any better?” .

I think this self-admission that we ALL tend, as individuals, to accumulate some degree of errors, IS an appropriate and profound observation if Christianities are to ever gain insight into why Christians also “turn away” from truths, since, only a small portion of the many conflicting Christian theories on a specific doctrine CAN be correct and the rest must represent some degree of error.

Yet Christianities continue to innovate and develop new and different theological theories and move away (or “turn away&#8221 from the more ancient christian traditions. It is as though Christianity has not avoided making the same mistakes as the Jews (in terms of abandoning and innovating away from early, original, revealed religion.)

Christians rarely flirt with this admission (which is so obvious to other religions as they correctly criticize Christians for having so many conflicting theories), yet occasionally we’ll have the tacit admission that Christians are “not above guessing at those traditions, adding to them, misunderstanding them, or even altering them.” (as another poster correctly pointed out in another thread)

Such words remind me of Pseudo-Hecateus when he says “We throngs of men go astray in our hearts when, to gain solace from misery, we set up as statues of gods figures worked from wood, or images of copper, gold or ivory. We imagine we are religious when we enjoin in their honor sacrifices and evil festivals. (#2 Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 5.113)

This principle that man innovates and then adopts changed religion has ALWAYS been true whether speaking of Jews or Christians. Prophets reveal authentic religion. Men then go astray. Other prophets attempt to reform them to authentic religion to mankind, which correction men then apostatize from, which other prophets attempt to reform them, ad nauseum.


This is one of the great lessons that God seems to be trying to teach mankind from the beginning, that is, that none of us; neither Jews nor Christians are immune to this specific weakness. ALL mankind tend to apostatize to some extent. We innovate, we imagine, we theorize. And as we do, we get certain things wrong. And, as we repetitively adopt increasing numbers of errors, they both accumulate and magnify the tendency to evolve away from original religion.


Clear
φθτυφιδρειω

 

[Desert Snake]

Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"


*

Does He have to? Don't you reference the OT on NT topics? Is every reference point mentioned by Jesus? No, only some, but we still reference the oT.

Anyways, yes, He does.

 

[Desert Snake]

I am back from traveling and the discussion at hand has left the restoration and re-adoption of the early Judeo-Christian Doctrine of Pre-mortal existence of Spirits within mankind, and turned (presently) to the concept of apostasy and evolution away from early, authentic Christian Doctrine and practice.

Well, I'd like to state that I have avoided the conversion to evolution theory, it isn't going to happen.

One poster in another forum made the point in his Opening Post as follows : I think his posts observation was insightful.


The fear underlying the terrible question “What am I to believe if God doesn’t keep my church or my texts (or my pastor, or my interpretation, etc.) from error?” is an inadequate defense for either claiming the correctness of a hundred conflicting claims or for any religious position.

Interestingly, in discussing Judaic doctrinal apostasy with a Jewish friend, he also denied that the Jews ever lost Gods favor (since I had pointed out that the Jews no longer had prophetic revelation as the basic characteristic of their religion anciently; they no longer had the ability to create scriptures ; they no longer had their levitical priesthood ; they no longer had their temple, etc). HIS defense also centered on this same claim that “God would never have permitted his chosen people to believe in errors and apostatize away from revealed, true religion”.


REGARDING THE TENDENCY TO APOSTATIZE FROM ORIGINAL RELIGION

When discussing Jewish’s motives to “turn away” from the gospel, another Christian posters’ similar insightful question for Christians was : “Do you really think we do any better?” .

I think this self-admission that we ALL tend, as individuals, to accumulate some degree of errors, IS an appropriate and profound observation if Christianities are to ever gain insight into why Christians also “turn away” from truths, since, only a small portion of the many conflicting Christian theories on a specific doctrine CAN be correct and the rest must represent some degree of error.

Yet Christianities continue to innovate and develop new and different theological theories and move away (or “turn away&#8221 from the more ancient christian traditions. It is as though Christianity has not avoided making the same mistakes as the Jews (in terms of abandoning and innovating away from early, original, revealed religion.)

Christians rarely flirt with this admission (which is so obvious to other religions as they correctly criticize Christians for having so many conflicting theories), yet occasionally we’ll have the tacit admission that Christians are “not above guessing at those traditions, adding to them, misunderstanding them, or even altering them.” (as another poster correctly pointed out in another thread)

Such words remind me of Pseudo-Hecateus when he says “We throngs of men go astray in our hearts when, to gain solace from misery, we set up as statues of gods figures worked from wood, or images of copper, gold or ivory. We imagine we are religious when we enjoin in their honor sacrifices and evil festivals. (#2 Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 5.113)

This principle that man innovates and then adopts changed religion has ALWAYS been true whether speaking of Jews or Christians. Prophets reveal authentic religion. Men then go astray. Other prophets attempt to reform them to authentic religion to mankind, which correction men then apostatize from, which other prophets attempt to reform them, ad nauseum.


This is one of the great lessons that God seems to be trying to teach mankind from the beginning, that is, that none of us; neither Jews nor Christians are immune to this specific weakness. ALL mankind tend to apostatize to some extent. We innovate, we imagine, we theorize. And as we do, we get certain things wrong. And, as we repetitively adopt increasing numbers of errors, they both accumulate and magnify the tendency to evolve away from original religion.


Clear
φθτυφιδρειω

Yes, it's interesting, but I think that we have also misinterpreted meaning behind Scripture, in Christian religion studies...I have to say, I find it (well, according to me), even commonly because I think there simply must be too much of 'cross reference' habit, when in reality, sometimes the other sources are incorrect. I think some instances are the 'double-checking' of how certain Jewish groups are interpreting Scripture, and how the Christian scholar is interpreting Scripture. There almost seems to be a lack of understanding that false interpretation is in both religions even in seemingly simple instances.

 

[Katzpur]

As for your first question, Jesus had already taught about Hell before He said this to Saint Peter so Peter would have had the Catholic belief of Hell since Jesus taught Catholicism. That's my opinion.

I'm sorry but that answer's not gonna fly, and is basically a cop-out. You need to provide some evidence that "Jesus taught Catholicism" before we even attempt to go on from here. What I'm getting out of this is that you really don't know what the phrase "the gates of hell" would have meant to any Jewish convert to Christianity back in the first century. Just for kicks, though, why don't you give me a few scriptural citations where I can learn about Jesus' Catholic teachings.

As for your second question, I'd have to say that if Christ never abandoned the Church but yet it completely apostatized then Christ failed and since Christ is God, He cannot fail. Again, my opinion.

Well, for starters, I already explained what I mean by "apostasy," and you seem to be ignoring my explanation and saying essentially that God would not allow human beings to screw up. I was actually of the opinion that Catholicism taught that we all have free will. (I'm sure I don't need -- nor do I particularly want -- to mention all of the "little screw ups" the Catholic Church has made since its inception.)

 

[McBell]

Well, for starters, I already explained what I mean by "apostasy," and you seem to be ignoring my explanation and saying essentially that God would not allow human beings to screw up. I was actually of the opinion that Catholicism taught that we all have free will. (I'm sure I don't need -- nor do I particularly want -- to mention all of the "little screw ups" the Catholic Church has made since its inception.)

um...
Wouldn't what she is saying mean that she believes that god was behind the whole pedophile priest thing?

 

[Katzpur]

um...
Wouldn't what she is saying mean that she believes that god was behind the whole pedophile priest thing?

Kind of sounds that way to me.

 

[Ingledsva]

Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"

Does He have to? Don't you reference the OT on NT topics? Is every reference point mentioned by Jesus? No, only some, but we still reference the oT.

Anyways, yes, He does.

Actually I don't believe Jesus does.


Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.



*

 

[Desert Snake]

Actually I don't believe Jesus does.


Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.



*

Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s). It clearly is not referring to a physical place.

 

[Ingledsva]

Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s). It clearly is not referring to a physical place.

Please do try, as I haven't found such yet, when read in the original Greek.



*

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”


Disciple is correct in his claim that biblical texts reference “Hell”, whether one references it as Hades/Sheol/Gehenna/Death/the deep/ etc. or by other metaphors and names.

Also, much of the early judeo-christian literature describe and discuss “hell/sheol/Gehenna, etc.” in various contexts, conditions there and what happens there, etc. For example, the early Christian decensus literature as an entire Genre of literature, describe Christ’s decensus into Hades and his interactions with the spirits of mankind there as its main subject of discussion. The rich early Christian literature and traditions can tell us what meaning biblical references had for early Christians inside the early versions of the Christian movement.


For examples of places where, in "original" Greek, Greek "αδησ"/ english "Hades" is rendered “hell” in the Greek (LXX) Old Testament Septuagint and Greek New Testament include (there may be others, I simply did a "quick scan") :

Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalms 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Proverbs 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations
Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people
Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death
Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works


The above list is limited ONLY to specific references where greek Hades (αδης) is rendered as English “Hell” in the KJV Christian Old and New Testaments. There are obviously other references that refer to the same doctrine. However, the use of the LXX as a specific source of Greek is important, since it is a JEWISH translation which also informs us regarding how the Jewish translators of that time period, interpreted the tanakh (Hebrew bible) as they rendered it into Greek for the Greek speaking Jews. (Also, the Jewish bible, the "tanakh", was NOT written in greek)

Also, remember, this list does not include multiple other references to "hell" where the English “hell” was rendered from other references such as “Gehenna”, or “death”, or “the Abyss”, or “The deep”, etc, though they often refer to the same place and similar principles using “hell” as the metaphor. Nor does it list references to hades/hell/sheol/Gehenna, etc where the reference is oblique. You can easily follow the ones where it is specifically Jesus himself who is teaching in reference to Hell/sheol/hades/Gehenna, etc, as they appear bolded and underlined in red. Though there are multiple other references where Jesus speaks of Hell, they are rendered from Gehenna or another base word, rather than from greek αδησ (i.e. this list should be enlarged to be correct).

Good job on your correct point Disciple, frubals for historical correctness regarding the presence of hell as a principle in early authentic Christian tradition.

[FONT=&quot]Clear
φθτυφυφιτζ
[/FONT]

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”


Disciple is correct in his claim that biblical texts reference “Hell”, whether one references it as Hades/Sheol/Gehenna/Death/the deep/ etc. or by other metaphors and names.

Also, much of the early judeo-christian literature describe and discuss “hell/sheol/Gehenna, etc.” in various contexts, conditions there and what happens there, etc. For example, the early Christian decensus literature as an entire Genre of literature, describe Christ’s decensus into Hades and his interactions with the spirits of mankind there as its main subject of discussion. The rich early Christian literature and traditions can tell us what meaning biblical references had for early Christians inside the early versions of the Christian movement.


For examples of places where Greek "αδησ"/ english "Hades" is rendered “hell” in the Greek (LXX) Old Testament Septuagint and Greek New Testament include :

Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
...
Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations
Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people
Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death
Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works


The above list is limited ONLY to specific references where greek Hades (αδης) is rendered as English “Hell” in the KJV Christian Old and New Testaments. There are obviously other references that refer to the same doctrine. However, the use of the LXX as a specific source of Greek is important, since it is a JEWISH translation which also informs us regarding how the Jewish translators of that time period, interpreted the tanakh (Hebrew bible) as they rendered it into Greek for the Greek speaking Jews. (Also, the Jewish bible, the "tanakh", was NOT written in greek)

Also, remember, this list does not include multiple other references to "hell" where the English “hell” was rendered from other references such as “Gehenna”, or “death”, or “the Abyss”, or “The deep”, etc, though they often refer to the same place and similar principles using “hell” as the metaphor. Nor does it list references to hades/hell/sheol/Gehenna, etc where the reference is oblique. You can easily follow the ones where it is specifically Jesus himself who is teaching in reference to Hell/sheol/hades/Gehenna, etc.

Good job on your correct point Disciple, frubals for historical correctness regarding the presence of hell as a principle in early authentic Christian tradition.

[FONT=&quot]Clear
φθτυφυφιτζ
[/FONT]

Pure BULL!


There is no "hell" in Tanakh.


And the others have different words meaning grave, in most cases, or are being misread, or are translating the Hebrew.

We have discussed these many times.


And no Lucifer fallen from heaven either.


*


Simple question for you below -


*


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades/Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades/Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Note that they are - judged - AFTER the sea (the unburied) and Hades/Sheol delivers them up – for judgment!

NOTE: After the "Final Judgment" both death AND "Hades" are thrown into the "lake of fire!"

The "HOLDING PLACE" is no longer needed!

WHY: The "SECOND DEATH" "FINAL JUDGMENT" has been made!

If Hades/Sheol isn't just a place of holding for the dead - the grave, until judgment, how can "IT" be tossed AFTER the Final Judgment????

If it is destroyed at judgment – how can it be “hell” or “paradise?”

Inquiring minds want to know!


Hummmm! Looks like you have some more reading to do.


Ps - You made that too long - it wouldn't post - so I took out some of the TANAKH verses - as we KNOW for a FACT - there is no HELL in Tanakh.

*

 

[Clear]

post one of two

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”


Ingledsva : Disciple was simply trying to inform you regarding the existence of “hell” (hades / “αδης” in the biblical text. There is NO shame in admitting that disciple was correct and that you made a mistake.

You are again becoming irrational and confused and are displaying simple recalcitrance and ignorance by claiming “Hell” doesn’t exist in the Greek Biblical text. Obviously the greek αδης DOES exist as my examples show and the english text DO translate greek hades (Gk αδη&#962 AS “HELL”.

You admitted (in post # 1454 above) that you had not found the term for “hell” “in the original Greek.” All I did was give the forum members multiple objective verses where “Hell” does appear and is used in biblical text AND where the base greek actually DOES read “Hades”. You do not need to argue against obvious data just to be recalcitrant, UNLESS YOU HAVE BETTER DATA TO OFFER (rather than simply engaging in another set of unending denials or changing claims).

Why don't you try reason and logic and DATA? For example, you could try to offer data that shows the translators of english bibles who use "HELL" in translating the greek word "HADES" (gk αδη&#963 were all wrong to do so? (i.e. that HADES doesn't mean and should never mean "hell"?)





TO FORUM MEMBERS: Below are examples from the verses I posted, both in English AND in greek both from the LXX (the Greek Old Testament most used by early Christians) and from a NA-27 Critical Greek New Testament.

IF ANYONE wishes to know how ANY of the major Greek Uncials, minscules, or papyri read in any instance related to this point on “hell” / “αδησ “, I can provide any variant reading as I have access to all important variants. I assure you that the English and greek text I am providing is accurate. Though I would have translated the greek sentences differently in some cases, I agree with the translators that greek "hades" / αδησ is appropriately rendered as english "hell". The alpha in αδησ has a breathing mark that shows it is pronounced as HADEES in greek, which is our anglicized "HADES".

If I need to, I will post an actual PICTURE of the critical greek text if anyone other than ingledsva needs convincing in order to put this completely silly and unnecessary controversy to rest.


For examples : I have offered both english (KJV) and greek in red, with english "HELL" and the greek "Hades" / "αδησ" underlined and bolded and the portion translated in red so as to allow anyone to compare english to greek.

example 1)
KJV Deut 32:22 reads For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
The Greek LXX reads : Οτι πυρ εκκεκαυται εκ του θυμου μου καυθησεται εως αδου κατωτατου

example 2)
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
The Greek LXX reads : Βαθυτερα δε των εν αδου..


example 3)
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
The Greek LXX reads : …γυμνος ο αδης ενωπιον αυτου...


example 4)
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
The Greek LXX reads : αποστραφητωσαν οι αμαρτωλοι εις τον αδην...


example 5)
Psalms 16:10 (15:10 lxx) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The Greek LXX reads : οτι ουκ εγκαταλειψεις την ψυχην μου εις αδην...


example 6)
Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
The Greek LXX reads : και καταβητωσαν εις αδου ζωντες οτι πονηρια εν ταις παροικαις αυτων ...


example 7)
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και ερρυσω την ψυχην μου εξ αδου κατωτατου.


example 8)
Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
The Greek LXX reads : κινδυνοι αδου ευροσαν με...


example 9)
Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
The Greek LXX reads : οδοιαδουοοικοςαυτησ


example 10)
Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και επι πεταυρον αδου συναντα.


example 11)
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
The Greek LXX reads : Αδηςκαιαπωλειαφανεραπαρακυριω


example 12)
Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations
The Greek LXX reads : Ο αδης κατωθεν επικρανθη σθναντησας σοι...


post two of two follows

 

[Clear]

post two of two


example 13)
Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
The Greek LXX reads : και εταπεινωθης εως αδου.


example 14)
Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living
The Greek LXX reads : ..οι κατεβησαν εις αδου εν οπλοις πολεμικοις...


example 15)
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
The Greek LXX reads : εαν κατορυγωσιν εις αδου, εκειθεν η χειρ μου ανασπασει αυτους...


example 16)
Jonah 2:3 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The Greek LXX reads : και εισηκουσε μου εκ κοιλιας αδου κραυγης μου φωνης μου.


example 17)
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people
The Greek LXX reads : ...ο επλατυνε καθως αδης την φυχην αυτου και ουτος ως ο θανατος...


example 18)
Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
The Greek NEW Testament text reads : … εωςαδουκαταβιβασθηση.


example 19)
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


example 20)
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : οτι ουκ εγκαταλειψεις την ψυχην μου εις αδου...


example 21)
Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ..και εχω τας κλεις του αδου και του θανατου.


example 22)
Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ...ο θανατος και ο αδης ακολουθει μετ αυτο...


example 23)
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
The GreekNEWTESTAMENT reads : ...και θανατος και αδης εδωκαν τους εν αυτοις νεκρους...

I did notice that as I reviewed the greek text, I initially and inadvertently included two examples that used rendered death/θανατος as "hell" instead of Hades/αδης as hell but corrected this in this post (I made this list on a napkin at lunch so cut me a bit of slack...), but all others use HADES / αδησ as "hell" and other examples could be included that I did not include.



FORUM MEMBERS :

To those who read greek : Nothing needs to be said to you as it is quite clear to you that the poster disciple is correct that “HELL” both appears in the biblical text AND that Jesus uses “HELL” in his teachings.

To those who do not read greek : I have proven that αδησ exists in multiple examples in biblical texts. It is also very, VERY easy to confirm that the translators of english bibles were correct in translating greek Hades / αδησ as "Hell" in english bibles. for example, you can simply cut and paste the words

Definition of αδης

(greek hades) into a google search and confirm for yourselves that this IS the word for HADES / HELL in greek. Look at the references I gave and see if the word appears consistently in the examples in the place where English translators say it means “hell”.


The poster named disciple is quite correct that “HELL” / Hades, does exist within the pages of the bible AND that Jesus uses “HELL” / Hades in his teachings. He did NOT suggest an argument over the specific MEANING of "hell" as Ingledsva seems to now want to have, merely that "Hell" is used in the biblical text and that Jesus taught concerning hell. disciple is correct in these specific points regardless of any other change of subject.


Clear
φθτυφυσιτζω

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi Clear, thanks for those references.

I think, The 'Jewish/Israelite/Christian 'Hell' was translated into Greek as their closest approximation i.e. 'Hades' and rendered 'Hell/(Hel) to us. The actual 'Hell' version would therefore be a 'underworld' (Greek Hades) with the Christian understanding of what we mean by the term. Hence the early Christian traditions.

Hail Jesu The Nazarene

disciple.

 

[Ingledsva]

post one of two

Ingledsva asks : “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple replied: “yes, He does.”
Ingledsva responded : “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.
Disciple replied : “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”


Ingledsva : Disciple was simply trying to inform you regarding the existence of “hell” (hades / “αδης” in the biblical text. There is NO shame in admitting that disciple was correct and that you made a mistake.

You are again becoming irrational and confused and are displaying simple recalcitrance and ignorance by claiming “Hell” doesn’t exist in the Greek Biblical text. Obviously the greek αδης DOES exist as my examples show and the english text DO translate greek hades (Gk αδη&#962 AS “HELL”.

You admitted (in post # 1454 above) that you had not found the term for “hell” “in the original Greek.” All I did was give the forum members multiple objective verses where “Hell” does appear and is used in biblical text AND where the base greek actually DOES read “Hades”. You do not need to argue against obvious data just to be recalcitrant, UNLESS YOU HAVE BETTER DATA TO OFFER (rather than simply engaging in another set of unending denials or changing claims).




ING - LOL! Dude! Hell appears nowhere in the Bible - other words are being mistakenly translated as the "Fiery torturing "Hell" endlessly torturing sinners.



Why don't you try reason and logic and DATA? For example, you could try to offer data that shows the translators of english bibles who use "HELL" in translating the greek word "HADES" (gk αδη&#963 were all wrong to do so? (i.e. that HADES doesn't mean and should never mean "hell"?)




,,,

LOL! Dude, as usual you are making stupid statements about me.



I am well aware of ALL the words in Tanakh and NT erroneously translated as the Christian Fiery "Hell," which they are not.


And the ridiculousness of trying to turn Satan into some autonomous evil being.


And the ridiculousness of trying to say a Babylonian King is Satan, under a name that isn't even in the text, Lucifer, etc.


And trying to turn Isaiah's son Immanuel - into a prophecy of Jesus.


Christians make a hell of a lot of mistakes in translating the texts , - or perhaps they did it on purpose to further their ends!



*