Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Bathsheba]

I certainly understand that and won't argue with it. In fact, I remember being a missionary and showing some LDS archaeology video about the BoM to an investigator who had expressed interest in such a thing.

Didn't work, BTW.

Do you know when the video was produced?

I think it was about 30 years ago, I recall hearing alot of excitement about the discovery of dead sea scrolls. I was invited to a presentation but I don't remember anything. Does any of this ring any bells? Has the church put that archaeology video online? I would like to watch that video if it is available off the net.

 

[nutshell]

Do you know when the video was produced?

I think it was about 30 years ago, I recall hearing alot of excitement about the discovery of dead sea scrolls. I was invited to a presentation but I don't remember anything. Does any of this ring any bells? Has the church put that archaeology video online? I would like to watch that video if it is available off the net.

I'll see if I can find it for you. I don't recall if the dead sea scrolls were a part of it, but I think the timing is right.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Regarding Hill Cumorah:


Originally Posted by !Fluffy!
I was always told by LDS friends that the Hill Cumorah in New York IS the site of the two big battles (i looked it up, it looks like around 2,230,000 died there).


Originally Posted by DeepShadow
Many other LDS disagree with your friends. IMHO, the Book of Mormon disagrees with your friends.


Originally Posted by !Fluffy!
The idea that this civilization flourished and was annihilated in upstate NY is ... absurd.


Originally Posted by DeepShadow
I agree.


I'm sorry, but Hill Cumorah presents a huge problem in logic then. Here's why.

1. The Book of Mormon states the Hill Cumorah is the place where the plates were placed.

2. The Book of Mormon states the Hill Cumorah is where the battles took place.

3. Respected LDS Church scholars state the Hill Cumorah is in New York, that it is where the plates were placed, and that it is also the place where the battles took place, as confirmed by the Book of Mormon AND the Prophet Joseph Smith.

This is the historical record confirmed by LDS documentation. You admit this idea is absurd, while at the same time testifying that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God and the Book of Mormon is true.

Morm. 6:6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the Hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

HILL CUMORAH: A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6: 2-4. Cumorah was in a land of many waters, Morm. 6: 4. Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah, Morm. 6: 6. All but twenty and four Nephites were slain at Cumorah, Morm. 6: 11. We hear glad tidings from Cumorah, D&C 128: 20. Joseph Smith took plates from the Hill Cumorah, JS-H 1: 42, 50-54, 59.
Source: LDS.org

"WHERE IS THE HILL CUMORAH? - by Joseph Fielding Smith​

"SPECULATION ABOUT BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY. Within recent years there has arisen among certain students of the Book of Mormon a theory to the effect that within the period covered by the Book of Mormon, the Nephites and Lamanites were confined almost entirely within the borders of the territory comprising Central America and the southern portion of Mexico—the isthmus of Tehauntepec probably being the "narrow neck" of land spoken of in the Book of Mormon rather than the isthmus of Panama." ​

"This theory is founded upon the assumption that it was impossible for the colony of Lehi's to multiply and fill the hemisphere within the limits of 1,000 years, or from the coming of Lehi from Jerusalem to the time of the destruction of the Nephites at the Hill Cumorah. Moreover, they claim that the story in the Book of Mormon of the migrations, building of cities, and the wars and contentions, preclude the possibility of the people spreading over great distances such as we find within the borders of North and South America."​

"LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years."

"Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case."

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."


"EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains."


"Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon."

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history."

"NEPHITE AND JAREDITE WARS IN WESTERN NEW YORK. In the face of this evidence coming from the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, we cannot say that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess the territory of the United States and that the Hill Cumorah is in Central America. Neither can we say that the great struggle which resulted in the destruction of the Nephites took place in Central America. If Zelph, a righteous man, was fighting under a great prophet-general in the last battles between the Nephites and Lamanites; if that great prophet-general was known from the Rocky Mountains to 'the Hill Cumorah or eastern sea,' then some of those battles, and evidently the final battles did take place within the borders of what is now the United States."

"CUMORAH ONCE SITE OF CARNAGE AND DESTRUCTION. As I stood upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah, in the midst of a vast multitude, only a few of whom belonged to the Church, I tried to picture the scenes of former days. Here were assembled vast armies filled with bitterness and bent on destruction..."

"Here it was that Moroni, commanded by the Lord, hid up the sacred records of his people. Here it was. 1,400 years later, that he, then a resurrected being, came to Joseph Smith and committed these same records to the young man's care. At the time of the Prophet's first visit to the hill, it was covered with trees; today (1923) it is stripped and bare, save for the grass which grows abundantly. "

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

(wiki note: Smith was named to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1910, when his father was president of the church. No church president had a greater length of time as an apostle, (1910–1972), nor had any church president succeeded at such a high age. His time as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles from 1951 to 1970 has been surpassed by few; he spent David O. McKay's entire nineteen-year presidency as the President of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Smith spent some of his years among the Twelve Apostles as the Church Historian and Recorder.

Smith was a religious scholar and a prolific writer. Many of his works are used as references for church members.)

 

[!Fluffy!]

So I'll tell you what I think is absurd.

To postulate and conjecture that there are TWO Hill Cumorahs, two places with identical names, one in South America and one In NY,

that the huge population of Jewish emigres/indigenous peoples (for which there is no DNA or archeological evidence) battled and died in in the millions somewhere in South America (leaving behind no evidence),

THEN rather than burying the plates at that battle site (which clearly is what happened in the BoM story),

took the plates and went to a NEW place, coincidentally with the same name and description as the battle site (this journey of course is not mentioned anywhere in the BoM, nor is the idea ever presented that there are TWO Hill Cumorahs).
Now that's absurd.

Here is one response to this dilemma of reason and evidence, to believe what is "absurd" or believe the BoM:

- From the Deseret News, re: GEOGRAPHY PROBLEMS​

THE GEOGRAPHY OF the Book of Mormon has intrigued some readers of that volume ever since its publication. But why worry about it?

Efforts to pinpoint certain places from what is written in the book are fruitless because the record does not give evidence of such locations in terms of our modern geography.

Attempts to designate certain areas as the Land Bountiful or the site of Zarahemla or the place where the Nephite city of Jerusalem sank into the sea ‘and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof’ can bring no definitive results. So why speculate?

To guess where Zarahemla stood can in no wise add to anyone’s faith. But to raise doubts in people’s minds about the location of the Hill Cumorah, and thus challenge the words of the prophets concerning the place where Moroni buried the records, is most certainly harmful. And who has the right to raise doubts in anyone’s mind?

Our position is to build faith, not to weaken it, and theories concerning the geography of the Book of Mormon can most certainly undermine faith if allowed to run rampant.

Why not leave hidden the things that the Lord has hidden? If He wants the geography of the Book of Mormon revealed, He will do so through His prophet, and not through some writer who wishes to enlighten the world despite his utter lack of inspiration on the point.

SOME AUTHORS have felt ‘called upon’ to inform the world about Book of Mormon geography and have published writings giving their views. These books, however, are strictly private works and represent only their personal speculations. (Deseret News, July 29, 1978, Church News Section, p.16)

 

[Autodidact]

So do I. I said so several pages back.

And so the argument that we can recognize Joseph Smith as the true prophet of God by his fruits fails.

 

[Melissa G]

Sunk out of sight I'd say.

melissa g

 

[SoyLeche]

I'm sorry, but Hill Cumorah presents a huge problem in logic then. Here's why.

1. The Book of Mormon states the Hill Cumorah is the place where the plates were placed.

The Book of Mormon never names the Hill where Moroni buried the plates. The Hill Cumorah is where Mormon (Mornoi's dad) buried a bunch of records, but it specifically says that he did not bury the plates the BoM came from at that time. He gave them to his son, who survived the battle and wandered around for about 30 years. The hill in New York was first named "Cumorah" I believe by Oliver Cowdery.

2. The Book of Mormon states the Hill Cumorah is where the battles took place.

This is true. It also indicates that the Hill Cumorah couldn't have been in New York. Specifically, it says that the Hill is in the southern part of the land Northward. I'm not sure how you could arrange your geography to have upstate New York fit that description.

3. Respected LDS Church scholars state the Hill Cumorah is in New York, that it is where the plates were placed, and that it is also the place where the battles took place, as confirmed by the Book of Mormon AND the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Also partly true. We've already seen that the BoM does NOT support a New York Cumorah. Joseph may have believed it, at first at least. There is some indication that he later on began to espouse the Central America geography, but he died not long afterwards, and the Saints were once more forced to focus on survival, so that geographical questions reverted back to the previous (most likely incorrect) views.

You might have a point if we believed that our leaders or scholars are infallible. We don't though. I don't have to trust Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery's views on geography at all.

 

[Melissa G]

" Attempts to designate certain areas as the Land Bountiful or the site of Zarahemla or the place where the Nephite city of Jerusalem sank into the sea ‘and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof’ can bring no definitive results. So why speculate? "

Reminds me of the Atlantis Myth...surely not another coincidence.

~M

 

[SoyLeche]

THEN rather than burying the plates at that battle site (which clearly is what happened in the BoM story),

took the plates and went to a NEW place, coincidentally with the same name and description as the battle site (this journey of course is not mentioned anywhere in the BoM, nor is the idea ever presented that there are TWO Hill Cumorahs).

I would suggest that you actually read what the book has to say, because what you say "clearly happened" didn't, in fact, happen at all.

The journey is, in fact, mentioned, just not in detail.

Of course the idea isn't presented that there are two Hill Cumorahs in the BoM. Moroni never referred to the place he buried the plates as the Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery did.

 

[Popeyesays]

I'll see if I can find it for you. I don't recall if the dead sea scrolls were a part of it, but I think the timing is right.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found SIXTY years ago--1947. A goat herder pulled a jar of preserved scrolls out of an opening in the hillside.

Regards,

Scott

 

[silvermoon383]

Why are people so surprised at the idea that there are multiple hills named Cumorah through history? There are 6 cities in the United States named Fredericksburg (one of them is my hometown), at least 2 Hollywoods (Cali and Florida), I've seen a Moscow USA, Paris TX, numerous Springfields, and heaven knowns how many repeat names are throughout the world.

 

[DeepShadow]

Silver, that's not the point. The point is that the BoM says that all the plates were buried in Cumorah EXCEPT the ones that became the Book of Mormon. Check out Fluffy's post for the scripture, it says specifically that the plates given to Moroni were not buried in Cumorah.

Therefore, the naming of the Hill in New York as Cumorah is accidental, based upon the same misreading of the text as people in this thread are now committing. The Book of Mormon doesn't name two Cumorahs, it names one, and that name has been appropriated for the hill in upstate New York.

 

[Bathsheba]

The Book of Mormon never names the Hill where Moroni buried the plates. The Hill Cumorah is where Mormon (Mornoi's dad) buried a bunch of records, but it specifically says that he did not bury the plates the BoM came from at that time. He gave them to his son, who survived the battle and wandered around for about 30 years. The hill in New York was first named "Cumorah" I believe by Oliver Cowdery.

This is true. It also indicates that the Hill Cumorah couldn't have been in New York. Specifically, it says that the Hill is in the southern part of the land Northward. I'm not sure how you could arrange your geography to have upstate New York fit that description.

Also partly true. We've already seen that the BoM does NOT support a New York Cumorah. Joseph may have believed it, at first at least. There is some indication that he later on began to espouse the Central America geography, but he died not long afterwards, and the Saints were once more forced to focus on survival, so that geographical questions reverted back to the previous (most likely incorrect) views.

You might have a point if we believed that our leaders or scholars are infallible. We don't though. I don't have to trust Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery's views on geography at all.

 

[SoyLeche]

Again - I don't need to believe that the leaders of the church are infallible. Doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[Bathsheba]

Again - I don't need to believe that the leaders of the church are infallible. Doesn't bother me one bit.

When it comes to agility - you got game!

 

[Popeyesays]

I would suggest a seismic survey of the hill and the battlefield, such surveys have turned up archeological evidence in the past.

Regards,

Scott

 

[lunamoth]

Or maybe we could leave them to take this on faith, much as others of us take the virgin birth of Jesus.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Silver, that's not the point. The point is that the BoM says that all the plates were buried in Cumorah EXCEPT the ones that became the Book of Mormon. Check out Fluffy's post for the scripture, it says specifically that the plates given to Moroni were not buried in Cumorah.

Therefore, the naming of the Hill in New York as Cumorah is accidental, based upon the same misreading of the text as people in this thread are now committing. The Book of Mormon doesn't name two Cumorahs, it names one, and that name has been appropriated for the hill in upstate New York.

You haven't been reading very well.

The statement that Hill Cumorah in New York is where the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed, AND where the plates were buried, is not MINE. It is what your church teaches. If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with your church - a serious one.

---------------------------------------

"Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case."

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."


"EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains."


"Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon."

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history."

--------------------------------------------------------


So the testimony of your Prophet Joseph Smith, based on his own translation of the texts and his personal relationship with Moroni is not to be relied on, nor are the testimonies of his early companions and Apostles, nor is Joseph Fielding Smith, respected President, church historian and Apostle.

Yet a couple of LDS posters on RF claim higher authority. But on what grounds?

Where is the evidence? Where are the scriptures? If you wish to be taken seriously you're going to have to refute the testimony of Joseph Fielding Smith, in a point by point with references rather than rhetorically.

 

[Bishka]

So the testimony of your Prophet Joseph Smith, based on his own translation of the texts and his personal relationship with Moroni is not to be relied on, nor are the testimonies of his early companions and Apostles, nor is Joseph Fielding Smith, respected President, church historian and Apostle.

Yet a couple of LDS posters on RF claim higher authority. But on what grounds?

Where is the evidence? Where are the scriptures? If you wish to be taken seriously you're going to have to refute the testimony of Joseph Fielding Smith, in a point by point with references rather than rhetorically.

You know what I wonder? What you get from posting these sort of things? Satisfaction? Pride? Hopefullness?

What exactly is the point of it?

Do you hope we will abandon our 'silly' faith and join yours? Is is because we believe in it?

Honestly, why do it?

 

[Bishka]

Or maybe we could leave them to take this on faith, much as others of us take the virgin birth of Jesus.

But don't you see Luna? The virgin birth of Jesus Christ was real and factual, they have the Bible to prove it. The Book of Mormon is just a false document and doesn't prove anything.