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Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Here's the metallurgy info I was referring to:

New Evidence for Pre-Columbian Smelting of Metals!
See the MIT Web page on the MIT El Manchon Archaeological Excavation in Mexico. While critics have long ridiculed Book of Mormon references to ancient metal working in the Americas, interesting evidence is accumulating. Here is an excerpt:
[FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In November 2000, a team of archaeologists led by Professor Dorothy Hosler from the Center for Materials Research in Archaeology and Ethnology (CMRAE) at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, began excavation of a pre-Columbian site in the remote mountains of northern Guerrero, Mexico. This site is possibly the first pre-Columbian metal smelting site ever found in Mesoamerica. Therefore it is of distinct interest to Prof. Hosler . . . who studies ancient technologies and how civilizations of the past have been affected by them. In particular interest is metallurgy, a technology rare enough to only have been invented two or three times in human history (once in the Americas). [/SIZE][/FONT]

We anxiously await further information about this new discovery. The smelting site in Guerrero is in southern Mexico (see the location on a map). Also note the recent discovery in Peru proving use of metals before 1000 B.C. (or see the article at ABCnews.com. This discovery pushes the date of metal use in the Americas as far back as 1400 B.C.

But we all know that recent archeology has done nothing but refute the Book of Mormon.

That's right. Remember, BoM peoples are supposed to have had this technology since 2000 B.C.E., and extending right through Biblical times, up to soon after 600 C.E. Your site is from around 1300 C.E. Doesn't help you. No one has found any evidence of any culture that matches BoM people, with smelting, swords, gold, silver, iron, steel, wheat, horses, chariots. None. There never were any BoM people.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Except that the BoM never mentions coins - that's an unfortunate addition by whoever wrote the chapter headings - and most of the weapons mentioned didn't necessarily have to have been made of metal.

Most people that read the BoM assume that they were made of metal, but the book itself doesn't necessarily support that assumption.
  1. Ether 7: 9
    9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.
Mosiah 8: 11
11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust; and there is no one in the land that is able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates.
  1. Jarom 1: 8
    8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.
What the BoM makes clear is that they used gold and silver as a medium of exchange.
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
Which is exactly what we've been saying all along. The Nephites, Araldites, etc, are just an invention of Smiths, along with Revised Egytian, Boats which could sail the Atlantic. The Jews, or rather ficticious Lammenites, Nephites, desert dwellers hardly known for their skills as mariners, navigators or shipwrights, did this thing folks. Yes, please believe it because it said they did in the BOM.

Melissa G
 

Policeartist

New Member
Hello folks, I'm new here, but I'd be pretty careful about following someone who promises me I'll end up in a place of everlasting burnings--expecially as the definition of everlasting burnings is hell.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Hello folks, I'm new here, but I'd be pretty careful about following someone who promises me I'll end up in a place of everlasting burnings--expecially as the definition of everlasting burnings is hell.
Would you be so kind as to clue us in as to what you're talking about? Thanks.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
City of the Sacred Well records all kinds of traces. It even talks about a prior culture that ruled in the area, which was divided into light and dark skinned people, and the rulers all had beards.
Suddenly the scene shifts and we're in...the Yucatan! The Mayans, no, the Aztecs, no, the Olmecs, no, the Aztecs, no, the Mayans...which of these resemble the elusive Mulekites? None of them! None of these cultures can be found in the pages of the Book of Mormon, for none of them used the artifacts, foods, crops, animals, words or customs described there. You can't actually say any of them were, or you'd have to admit that they don't actually look like them at all. So you have to pick out an elusive legend here, a 1910 book there, and hint at the possibility that somewhere in America there were some people who wore breastplates and drove chariots, traded in gold and baked bread. But there aren't. So finally you have to retreat and hope we'll find them some day. The only thing is, the more we dig, the less the people look like the BoM, so finally you have to retreat to total post-modernism, in which any belief can be constructed without the necessity for that pesky old evidence.

How is it that archeologists know so much about Pre-Columbian peoples, and Mormon apologists so little? Does belief in the Mormon religion make you know less? Because actual archeologists know what people inhabited this land, when they conquered and expelled each other, immigrated from place to place and so forth, while Mormons still have no clue where the Nephites even lived!
 

Policeartist

New Member
Isn't the thread about JS as a prophet? So my comment was why would anyone want to follow a prophet who promises them eternity in everlasting burnings.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Isn't the thread about JS as a prophet? So my comment was why would anyone want to follow a prophet who promises them eternity in everlasting burnings.
Doesn't Isaiah tell us that the righteous shall dwell with "everlasting burnings"? Or, at least - it looks like it can be read that way (I've seen commentaries that go both ways on his statement)
 

Policeartist

New Member
No, it's a contrast. The sinners dwell in everlasting burnings.

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa. 33:14

Mosiah 27:28-29
“ Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out..."


LDS Elder and scholar, James E. Talmage used the phrase “everlasting burning” to describe a place of punishment, eternal damnation and vengeance of eternal fire. He said it was judgment provided for the wicked.


In the LDS Journal of Discourses, August 28, 1852, Elder John Taylor identified everlasting burnings as a place for “fallen sons of men.”
“I say, shall we shrink from the task of going forth to snatch these fallen sons of men from everlasting burning? Should we refuse to do so, it would testify that we had not a single spark of humanity in our bosoms, and were not fit to live in the world, much less to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds.”
 

SoyLeche

meh...
No, it's a contrast. The sinners dwell in everlasting burnings.

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa. 33:14

Mosiah 27:28-29
“ Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out..."


LDS Elder and scholar, James E. Talmage used the phrase “everlasting burning” to describe a place of punishment, eternal damnation and vengeance of eternal fire. He said it was judgment provided for the wicked.


In the LDS Journal of Discourses, August 28, 1852, Elder John Taylor identified everlasting burnings as a place for “fallen sons of men.”
“I say, shall we shrink from the task of going forth to snatch these fallen sons of men from everlasting burning? Should we refuse to do so, it would testify that we had not a single spark of humanity in our bosoms, and were not fit to live in the world, much less to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds.”
Or it could be that Isaiah is asking a question in verse 14 that he answers in 15.

Isn't it possible for a phrase to have a different meaning in a different context? Or does the phrase "everlasting burnings" always have to mean the same thing to everyone?
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
No, it's a contrast. The sinners dwell in everlasting burnings.

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isa. 33:14

Mosiah 27:28-29
“ Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out..."


LDS Elder and scholar, James E. Talmage used the phrase “everlasting burning” to describe a place of punishment, eternal damnation and vengeance of eternal fire. He said it was judgment provided for the wicked.




In the LDS Journal of Discourses, August 28, 1852, Elder John Taylor identified everlasting burnings as a place for “fallen sons of men.”
“I say, shall we shrink from the task of going forth to snatch these fallen sons of men from everlasting burning? Should we refuse to do so, it would testify that we had not a single spark of humanity in our bosoms, and were not fit to live in the world, much less to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds.”

Amazing how a monotheist can morph into polytheism so adroitly... I wonder, who will be around to worship all the Mormons who turn into Gods?

Not me, sorry. Guess I'll be a burnin'.

Welcome to RF policeartist. You need to go post a new thread here so everyone can welcome you!

Be sure to check out this thread for newbies too: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-com/8334-first-time-religiousforums-com.html
 

Policeartist

New Member
Or it could be that Isaiah is asking a question in verse 14 that he answers in 15.

Isn't it possible for a phrase to have a different meaning in a different context? Or does the phrase "everlasting burnings" always have to mean the same thing to everyone?


Good questions, SL. I'll answer the second one first. Under one of the three laws of logical thought is the law of identity:

In a certain specific context (set of facts and circumstances), a proposition (thing or situation) has only one single meaning.
-Totten, R., “Truth-Tests for Worldview,” 1998


Now I need to change your question:
--does the phrase "everlasting burnings" always have to mean the same thing to everyone?
--No. Although for communications sake, most people will understand the general meaning.

--does the phrase "everlasting burnings" always have to mean the same thing to the same person?

Yes, because a change of language indicates a change in the thinking, circumstances, or situation of the individual. Think of it this way: if your friend said today that he was going to kill his girlfriend, would you think he really meant that he was going to kiss her? Words have to have meaning in order to communicate. What do you understand pickle on rat coffee ran down up the inside street?

In order to find the correct meaning of a particular word or phrase, however, we have to research that word or phrases' usage by the person, or person's culture, or perhaps the person's history.

That's what I did. I researched the published culture of LDS through the official writings of the members, including JS. A word could have a unique meaning that differs from what others understand that word to mean, or could have changed meanings through time (example: gay).


A change in language indicates a change in the situation. The LDS materials clearly show historically from their own scriptures through present thinking that everlasting burnings are a description of eternal punishment—the outer darkness. Yet in the spring of 1844, Smith tells the members that that is where they are heading. This change of language was accompanied by other changes in the doctrine of the LDS Church. It was also around this period that Smith is telling faithful LDS members that God was born of other Gods, God was once a man, God was born through the sexual union of his parents on another planet, and that the LDS have the ability to be Gods.



Backtracking this change of language, we find a change in thinking in Smith’s view of heaven and hell. Less than a year before Smith’s revelation on the nature of “heaven” and God, he demonstrated a change of thinking. On Sunday, June 23, 1843 he writes:
“I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we’ll turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we’re, if the society be good?” -History of the Church, V 5, page 517

The change in language and direction did not go unnoticed by others. The Nauvoo Expositor had an article published June 7, 1844 that confirmed this change in Smith and his doctrines. Members of the LDS church wrote this article. It says:
“…(Joseph Smith) would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges we would charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his dignity, and would consequently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church.

We would ask him on the other hand, if the overthrow of the Church was not inevitable, to which he often replied, that we would all go to Hell together, and convert it into a heaven, by casting the Devil out; and says lie, Hell is by not means the place this world of fools suppose it to be, but on the contrary, it is quite an agreeable place”
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Great post, Policeartist.

The OP says

All honest seekers of truth must at least consider with sincerity the mission and fruits of the prophet Joseph Smith. Either Joseph was indeed a true prophet or he was a deceiptful fraud.

I vote "deceitful fraud".

re Policeartist's post above, I believe that date should be July 23 (not June) and there are some other very enlightening insights included in that portion of the 1843 history. He announced one Sunday he's no longer a prophet, then a week later says he was speaking "ironically" to "test" them.

I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good?

This is really a good resource
- Kristus.dk: Chapter 27
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"In a certain specific context (set of facts and circumstances), a proposition (thing or situation) has only one single meaning.
-
Totten, R., “Truth-Tests for Worldview,” 1998"

But in my faith we are taught that "every letter has seven meanings".

Regards,
Scott
 

Melissa G

Non Veritas Verba Amanda
A letter has no meaning on it's own, other than it's phonetic value. A A A A A A A, is an A.

Melissa G
 

Policeartist

New Member
"In a certain specific context (set of facts and circumstances), a proposition (thing or situation) has only one single meaning.
-Totten, R., “Truth-Tests for Worldview,” 1998"

But in my faith we are taught that "every letter has seven meanings".

Regards,
Scott

As Melissa correctly stated, a letter has no meaning on its own. A letter is not a proposition, thing, or situation.

Words have meaning.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I didn't say that. Smith was a Christian - he just wasn't a member of an organized church.

For Smith it was the churches that had strayed because the churches had, in fact, strayed - to such an extent that the whole system needed a reboot. Just because we don't have any evidence of this happening before doesn't negate the possibility that it happened this time around. Although, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Enoch or Noah would have been viewed more like Smith than like Isaiah to the people of their day.

Smith did "buy into" the Christian faith and "sought to bring others into compliance". He just had learned that the faith taught by the "professors of religion" was in error. When something is in error, you do what you can to fix it - or, at least that's what I do.
The churches had, in fact, strayed? In what way is that factual?

Noah wasn't a prophet. "Prophet" denotes an office with a specific ministry. Noah didn't have that, because the religion that spawned prophets hadn't been invented yet.

Smith bought in to faith, but not into the system of religion. Remember, a prophet is a product (and part of) a system of religion.

The thing is that Smith just doesn't act in the role of the Biblical prophet.
 
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