Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[McBell]

You have shown just a few posts back and on some of the recent posts that you ran from questions you could not answer.

If you do not wish for others to follow your example, It would be a good idea to not set the example.

 

[challupa]

Yep. Good points. The problem lies in the fact that this religion is fought for tooth and nail even when you show them that they are being taught falsehoods. They just tell you they have a burning in their bosom and that is good enough. Its flat out denial of the truth.

No doubt the irony of this post evades you?

 

[Sola'lor]

It is NOT about me, it is about the first Vision of Joseph Smith!
One time he said, that he only saw Jesus, than that he saw God, and than, that he saw both, and at another time, that he just saw angels (no God or Christ)
If a wittness in front of a court would say something different about the same issue, he would be not credible.

I agree, IF it was a courtroom situation. But none of the accounts were intended to be eyewitness evidence in a courtroom.

You don't believe me?
It is your right, to do this. But see this quote.

"... I received the first visitation of angels, which was when I was about fourteen years old ..." (Deseret News, May 29, 1852)

In this Church Newspaper was the story of Joseph Smith. This stuff was changed in later editions and in the Church History in:

"... I received my first vision, which was when I was about fourteen years old ..." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p.312).

To quote Wesley P. Walters:

"... the shift from an angel to Christ, then to angels, and finally to two personages introduced such haziness that even the Mormon leaders appeared confused as to the nature of the story itself" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1969, p.73).

Personal opinion rather than presentation of fact.

Let's look at the accounts themselves. I only quoted from the ones that quote or were written by Joseph Smith.

1832 Account---
while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father

1835 Account---
I called on the Lord in mightly prayer, a pillar of fire appeared above my head, it presently rested down upon me, and filled me with Joy unspeakable, a personage appeard in the midst of this pillar of flame which was spread all around, and yet nothing consumed, another personage soon appeard like unto the first, he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testified unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; <and I saw many angels in this vision> I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication; When I was about 17 years old I saw another vision of angels in the night season after I had retired to bed

1835 Account---
I received the first visitation of angels, which was when I was about fourteen years old;


1838 Account---
I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other — This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.

It's interesting to note that here it doesn't specifically say that ther personages were God and Jesus Christ. It just says "Personages".

1844 Account---
I was enrapt in a heavenly vision, and saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light, which eclipsed the sun at noonday. They told me that all the religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as His Church and Kingdom. And I was expressly commanded to "go not after them," at the same time receiving a promise that the fullness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me.

So all of these accounts are consistant in that at least one personage appeared to him. And only in the 1832 account is the personage specifically called "the Lord." Other accounts imply the Lord but only say "personage." Three of the four detailed accounts say there were two personages.

Multiple angels are mentioned twice. In the first 1835 account the fact there were angels there seems more like an after thought. In the second 1835 account it seems to be used more as a description for the entire event.

In my personal opinion there were multiple angles present at the first vision but they probably were not significant enough to be included in the other accounts. But in all of these accounts except the very brief second 1835 account says there were personages. This seems to be very consistant.

EDIT: I forgot topost the source. Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts - varying versions of mormon origins

 

[Sola'lor]

Dr. John A. Wilson is the first witness against the Book of Abraham. He was an retired professor for egyptology at the university of Chicago, became 1936 leaders of the East institute, and was between 1960 and 1961 their manager. He passed away 30th of August, 1976. Though he published on the subject nothing, but he examined /investigated the Abrahm papyrus, and pointed out with as a first to the fact that it concerned the book of the breath. (see Dialogue: A journal of Mormon Thought, summer, 1968. Page 68)

I don't believe the papyri was the Book of Abraham. I believe it was the means whereby the Book of Abraham was revealed.

And even LDS Scholars know it: (Book of Abraham Symposium, 3. April 1970, p. 72)
They know that this papyri was younger than Abraham was, and that he never could write it.

Abraham didn't write that piece of papyri.

What is a prophet? A man of God which tells for example prophecies.

A prophet is somebody who recieves messages from God. This can be prophecies but can also be other information.

But none of his prophecies get fullfilled.
For example:
New York shall be destroyed (D&C 84: 114-115
Joseph Smith will see the Resurection of Christ as a living Person at the age of 85 (D&C 130: 14-17)
The Kirtland Bank would be successfull (History of the Church, Vol.2, p. 509-510)

Doing a quick search a found a list of Joseph Smith prophecies that were, in fact, fulfilled.

Fulfilled Prophesies of Joseph Smith

So your claim that none of his prophecies were fulfilled is wrong.

Is that a proof for a true prophet as the bible said it in Deut. 18:19-21?

Ok lets look:

Deut. 18:19-21
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

Nothing in here says anything about the situation you claimed. All it says here is that if a prophet speaks in God's name that which he was not commanded to speak or if he speaks in the name of other gods then that prophet should die. This has nothing to do with prophecies not comming to pass. But I did notice you conviniently left of the verse that does.

Deut. 18:22
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It says here that if a prophet speaks something and it doesn't come to pass then that prophet has spoken presumptuously. And notice how it doesn't say to put the prophet to death. It says to not be afraid of that prophet.

 

[Katzpur]

I know that my English is lousy, and i would be glad if someone correct it. Maybe you as LDS?

No, I'd rather not. I have neither the time nor the interest. Besides, in order to correct it, I'd have to read your posts. I'd rather not commit to such an offensive task.

Yeah, but other folks didn't kno it. Or did you know for example, what a Gynäkologenstuhl" is? In Germany knows every women it. It means "Gynecologist's chair". Or what a "homophober Stinker" is? It means "homophobic skunk".

With my limited German, I probably could have guessed.

I'm from Germany. English isn't my mother tongue. Don't forget it!

Yes, and quite the German you are!

 

[McBell]

I don't believe the papyri was the Book of Abraham. I believe it was the means whereby the Book of Abraham was revealed.

Abraham didn't write that piece of papyri.

A prophet is somebody who recieves messages from God. This can be prophecies but can also be other information.

Doing a quick search a found a list of Joseph Smith prophecies that were, in fact, fulfilled.

Fulfilled Prophesies of Joseph Smith

So your claim that none of his prophecies were fulfilled is wrong.

Ok lets look:

Deut. 18:19-21
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

Nothing in here says anything about the situation you claimed. All it says here is that if a prophet speaks in God's name that which he was not commanded to speak or if he speaks in the name of other gods then that prophet should die. This has nothing to do with prophecies not comming to pass. But I did notice you conviniently left of the verse that does.

Deut. 18:22
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It says here that if a prophet speaks something and it doesn't come to pass then that prophet has spoken presumptuously. And notice how it doesn't say to put the prophet to death. It says to not be afraid of that prophet.

Well Witch of Hope, what are people supposed to think of you now that it has been shown that what you have posted is, in fact, not truth or fact?

 

[Smoke]

In other words: They oppess their own scholars

You have got to be kidding me!
Are you serious?

Yes, this part is true. At BYU, neither students nor faculty may contradict the teachings of the LDS Church or criticize the leadership of the Church.

Mormons generally defend this policy on the grounds that it's a Church school, and of course the Church does not run a school for the purpose of subverting its own leaders and teachings.

 

[McBell]

Yes, this part is true. At BYU, neither students nor faculty may contradict the teachings of the LDS Church or criticize the leadership of the Church.

Mormons generally defend this policy on the grounds that it's a Church school, and of course the Church does not run a school for the purpose of subverting its own leaders and teachings.

So would you now please let me know when the Tanners were discriminated against whilst being a Mormon Scholar?

 

[Witch of Hope]

Well Witch of Hope, what are people supposed to think of you now that it has been shown that what you have posted is, in fact, not truth or fact?

I report only facts about the Mormons, and it concerns me a sh** about what somebody would think about me. I can proof all this stuff against the LDS.

 

[Sola'lor]

I report only facts about the Mormons, and it concerns me a sh** about what somebody would think about me. I can proof all this stuff against the LDS.

You claimed that none Joseph Smith's prophecies ever came to pass. I gave a link to several Prophecies of Joseph Smith that did in fact come to pass. It is fact that these prophecies were fulfilled. You're claim that none of his prophecies came to pass is not factual.

 

[Witch of Hope]

Fulfilled Prophesies of Joseph Smith

So your claim that none of his prophecies were fulfilled is wrong.

It isn't wrong! For example: Mormons believe that Joseph Smith make a prophecy about the Civiil War (why he start). But did you know the fact. My sources are only in German, and my English isn't good enough to translate, so I use an american source:

The Civil War
On December 25, 1832, Joseph Smith gave his famous revelation concerning the Civil War. In this revelation we find the following:
1.
Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2.
And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3.
For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4.
And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshalled and disciplined for war.
5. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation (Doctrine and Covenants, 87:1-5).

The Mormon people believe that this revelation proves Joseph Smith was a prophet. Larry Jonas, on the other hand, shows that Joseph Smith could easily have received the idea for this revelation from the views of his time:
On July 14, 1832, Congress passed a tariff act which South Carolina thought was so bad, she declared the tariff null and void. President Andrew Jackson alerted the nation's troops. At the time Smith made his prophecy, the nation expected a war between North and South to begin at the rebellion of South Carolina. This can be confirmed in a U.S. history book. Better yet, let me confirm it from a Latter-day Saints Church publication, Evening and Morning Star,... the issue which came out for January 1833. The news of South Carolina's rebellion was known before January 1833. It was known before December 25, 1832 but it was not available in time for the December issue. It takes quite a while for news to be set up even today in our dailies. We would expect it to wait for a month to come out in a monthly. The example contains the information available to the church before the paper hit the street. The example and the prophecy are strangely similar... Both consider the pending war a sign of the end—which it was not. In fact, the war expected in 1832 did not come to pass....
Far from being evidences of Smith's divine calling, the most famous prophecies which he made are evidences that he can copy views of his time (Mormon Claims Examined, by Larry S. Jonas, p.52).
One further fact that supports the argument that Joseph Smith borrowed from the "views of his time" is that there is another article printed in the January 1833 issue of the original paper, The Evening and the Morning Star, which has the title "Rebellion in South Carolina." Interestingly enough, Joseph Smith's revelation has the words "beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina" in the first verse. In this article we read as follows: "In addition to the above tribulations, South Carolina has rebelled ... Gen. Jackson has ordered several companies of Artillery to Charleston, and issued a Proclamation, urging submission and declaring such moves as that of S. Carolina Treason" (The Evening and the Morning Star, vol. 1, issue 8).
Joseph Smith was familiar with the fact that South Carolina had rebelled at the time he gave the revelation. Just before the revelation concerning the Civil War is recorded in Joseph Smith's history, the following statement is attributed to him: "... the United States, amid all her pomp and greatness, was threatened with dissolution. The people of South Carolina, in convention assembled (in November), passed ordinances, declaring their state a free and independent nation... " (History of the Church, vol. 1, p.301).
Thus we see that the statement in Joseph Smith's revelation that the wars would begin at the rebellion of South Carolina was undoubtedly inspired by the fact that South Carolina had already rebelled before the revelation was given. This rebellion did not end in war, but the Civil War did start some years later over trouble in South Carolina.
The fact that Joseph Smith predicted a civil war is not too remarkable. Many people believed there would be a civil war before it actually took place. The December 1840 issue of the Millennial Star, volume 1, page 216, quoted an article from the New York Herald. In this article a civil war was predicted: "We begin to fear this unhappy country is on the eve of a bloody civil war, a final dismemberment of the Union...."
It is interesting to note that verse 3 of Joseph Smith's revelation concerning the Civil War did not come to pass. In verse 3 we read: "... the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall call upon other nations in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations." War was certainly not poured out on all nations at that time as Joseph Smith predicted.(Changing world of Mormonism p.424-426)

As you can see:NO PROOF for a true revelation!

 

[McBell]

I report only facts about the Mormons, and it concerns me a sh** about what somebody would think about me. I can proof all this stuff against the LDS.

And yet you claimed that none of Joseph Smith's Prophecies came true.
This is not a fact.
At best it is just plain wrong.
At worst, it is a bold faced lie.

So which is it?
Are you simply wrong or are you a liar?

 

[Witch of Hope]

And yet you claimed that none of Joseph Smith's Prophecies came true.
This is not a fact.
At best it is just plain wrong.
At worst, it is a bold faced lie.

So which is it?
Are you simply wrong or are you a liar?

I'm not a liar and I also didn't be wrong. I have used one of this "fulfilled" prophecies, cause i didn't have much time yet (in 20 minutes I have to leave my apartment for work)
But, if you want it, i can say to each one of this "prophecies" something. Tonight!

 

[McBell]

I'm not a liar and I also didn't be wrong. I have used one of this "fulfilled" prophecies, cause i didn't have much time yet (in 20 minutes I have to leave my apartment for work)
But, if you want it, i can say to each one of this "prophecies" something. Tonight!

wow
just...
wow

 

[Sola'lor]

As you can see:NO PROOF for a true revelation!

So. You still haven't proved that it was not a true revelation. You just stated that

"Larry Jonas, on the other hand, shows that Joseph Smith could easily have received the idea for this revelation from the views of his time:"

Your Larry Jonas quote does not disprove the revelation it only offers an alternative theory.

The facts are that Joseph Smith made a prediction. This prediction came to pass. Wether or not this was actually a revelation or not is what cannot be proven. Now unless you have a video tape of Joseph Smith stating that he lied and it wasn't really a revelation then you have no proof that it was not a revelation.

Again your claim that not a single one of Joseph Smith's revelations came to pass is false.

 

[Smoke]

So would you now please let me know when the Tanners were discriminated against whilst being a Mormon Scholar?

No, I meant in general. The Tanners aren't scholars.

 

[LoTrobador]

What is a prophet? A man of God which tells for example prophecies.

A prophet is somebody who recieves messages from God. This can be prophecies but can also be other information.

Joseph Smith, Jr. is considered to be a Prophet within LDS' religious system, based on this system's definition of a prophet. So why would LDS adapt a definition from outside of this system in the first place?...

 

[LittleNipper]

But you have absolutely nothing solid or substantial that differentiates or elevates your storybook above the rest. You only believe it because you were indoctrinated to do so, regardless of logic and evidence to the contrary. It doesn't help credibility.

My "storybook," as you call it, has plenty of physical historic evidence. The Bible also has plenty of prophetic evidence that is very hard to explain away. Both the Koran and the book of Mormon are very limited in their prophetic "ministry."

 

[Witch of Hope]

By the side of Mormons,which want to stay in that church, nevertheless, argue critically with their church, I have been drawn the attention on a little bit very much interesting. The church has changed because in their history and their scriptures a lot. So, e.g., in the revalation about the Rocky Mountains. For non-Mormons: Mormons state that Joseph Smith saw in a vision that the Mormons would moved to the Rocky Mountains. Nevertheless, it is interesting, besides, that this "REVALATION" was only published, AFTER the Mormons came in the today's SLC. Moreover, church documents prove that Smith Mormonen sent out some male members who should explore this area, after they had annoyance with non-Mormons for which they themselves were to blame with. In these documents was only from considerations the speech, never from an revalation. Funnily, the Mormons "forgot" this later.

This is a conclusion about this Prophecy:

The common source cited for the well-known Rocky Mountain Prophecy s History of the Church 5:85 for August 6, 1842 (also, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 255). It has frequently been assumed that this was recorded in Joseph Smith's journal for that date. This is a mistake. It is certain that Joseph Smith contemplated and began plans to build an LDS city, or cities in the West, including Texas, California, Oregon and the Rocky Mountains.
It is uncertain that he anticipated or prophesied that the Saints would leave Nauvoo and move Church Headquarters to the Great Salt Lake Valley or any other new city.
It is uncertain that the Rocky Mountain Prophecy was written before the Saints' arrival in Salt Lake in 1847.
It seems probable that Joseph Smith, based upon his April 8, 1844 Conference address, planned for the Saints to continue to occupy Nauvoo while establishing settlements in various locations in North America, and perhaps even in South America.
An obvious concern regards the date, accuracy and detail of the prophecy. It is common for reminiscences to be shaped, expanded and interpreted to resonate with the current situation.
Speculating, Joseph Smith's talk of westward exploration and settlement may, in later recollections, have become more specific and detailed. That is, after settling in Salt Lake Valley, recollections of Joseph Smith's plans for exploration of Texas, California, Oregon and the Rocky Mountains for a place to build a new city, or cities, may have been transformed into a specific prophecy of the Saints settling in the Rocky Mountains, even the Great Salt Lake Valley.
LDS widely believed that they were in Salt Lake Valley by design and perhaps tended to remember that which they believed - that their migration had been prophesied. Solid sources written during the Nauvoo period establish that Joseph Smith was considering the Rocky Mountains as one possible site for an LDS settlement, but no sources prior to July 24, 1847 include a specific prophecy of Joseph Smith to that effect. Dated after the move to Salt Lake City are many recollections, including quite specific detail, of prophecies by Joseph Smith.Source: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog/id8.html

 

[tumbleweed41]

What has this to do with the OP?
A prophet for a religion is defined by that religion.
A martyr for a religion is defined by that religion.
Religions define their own terms.
Catholics originally defined what a martyr was, and no one but a Catholic qualifies.
Protestants disagree with the Catholic restriction.
Mormons define Smith as a martyr, and I doubt if a Protestant, Catholic, or FSM counterargument will dissuade them.
No more than a Catholic could dissuade a Protestant from their point of view on martyrs.