Joseph Smith Was Not A Martyr

[Witch of Hope]

so basically what you are going to do is completely ignore the list fulfilled prophecies in order to harp over ones that failed and talk about irrelevant personal experiences?
You do know this age old tactic is not only dishonest, but also known as "counting the hits and ignoring the misses"?

I haven't ignored this list of the "fullfiled" prophecies. I have stored them even on my PC, and at later at them more exactly have had a look. I had offered to you to have a look exactly at EACH of these "revelations", and to check whether they are true (if Smith has made them), and whether there aren't other proofs of it. You haven't come on my offer, this is why I began with the prophecy over the Rocky Mountains (this was the point after the civil war on the list). But also here came, it seemed to me, from your side only ignorance.

And no.
I am not a Mormon.
I have never been a Mormon.
And I, in fact, have problems with Mormon beliefs.

Maybe you never were a Mormon, but you argue like a Mormon, this is why I asked.

 

[McBell]

I haven't ignored this list of the "fullfiled" prophecies. I have stored them even on my PC, and at later at them more exactly have had a look. I had offered to you to have a look exactly at EACH of these "revelations", and to check whether they are true (if Smith has made them), and whether there aren't other proofs of it. You haven't come on my offer, this is why I began with the prophecy over the Rocky Mountains (this was the point after the civil war on the list). But also here came, it seemed to me, from your side only ignorance.

Of course I come off as ignorant to you.
I do not agree with your agenda, nor do I take your biased, prejudiced word as fact.

Believe it or not, I am not in your Mormon bashing choir.
Perhaps you cannot understand how non-Mormon does not default to anti-Mormon, but seems to me that is a problem you have to work out for yourself.

Maybe you never were a Mormon, but you argue like a Mormon, this is why I asked.

Maybe?
I flat out told you that I am not now, nor was I ever a Mormon.

I argue like a Mormon?
Really?
So your arguments have always been so bad/weak?

PS,
Really big obnoxious fonts are not impressive.
There is no need to start screaming like a banshee.

 

[Smoke]

For which is to the hell an encyclopedia there, or a dictionary if everybody makes his own definition? Concepts have generally valid meanings. The color RED describes something else, than the color BLUE. Nobody would come on the stupid idea, and would say that the red table was blue in reality. And also the concept Martyr is understood in a certain direction.

You think a martyr must be somebody led willingly to slaughter. But even the dictionary, the last refuge of those who have no argument, doesn't support that assertion. Martyrdom has often been understood that way, but not always.

Your insistence on regarding only a particular subset of martyrs as real martyrs makes exactly as much sense as saying, "Well he didn't really pray because he wasn't standing (or kneeling, or prostrate, or whatever)." You refuse to understand that the word encompasses a wider range of meanings than you'd like it to.

 

[McBell]

And also the concept Martyr is understood in a certain direction.

Why are you screaming like a banshee?

Big fonts merely make you look desperate.

The most interesting thing here is that it was the Mormon Basher trying to push onto everyone else a specific definition that agreed only with his agenda.
Not one dictionary that I found even hinted to his definition.

So the problem here is that your buddy was trying to add a condition to the word martyr that not only the Mormons disagreed with, but every major dictionary on the planet ALSO disagreed with.

Seems to me that your argument that Joseph Smith was not a martyr is relying solely on your own subjectivity.

 

[Katzpur]

Maybe you never were a Mormon, but you argue like a Mormon, this is why I asked.

Mestemia doesn't argue like a Mormon. He argues like an intelligent human being. You argue like an ex-Mormon whose feelings were hurt by the way the church handled your change of gender.

 

[Smoke]

You argue like an ex-Mormon whose feelings were hurt by the way the church handled his change of gender.

That's the problem with rage. It makes it hard to be cool and rational. Trust me, I know.

However, an LGBT Mormon (or Christian of any kind) who hasn't ever struggled with rage is a person who hasn't been paying attention.

 

[YmirGF]

Maybe you never were a Mormon, but you argue like a Mormon, this is why I asked.

How does one "argue like a Mormon", exactly? Is there some particular style that I have been unable to detect thus far? If I might offer the observation, Mes may not "argue like a Mormon" but some might think that the writer of the above quote argues like a moron. Now I could never suggest such a thing myself, but I'm just saying, some might think that.

 

[Katzpur]

That's the problem with rage. It makes it hard to be cool and rational. Trust me, I know.

I know, and I can understand that. (Actually, I can't fully understand, but I am trying to.) The problem with people like Witch of Hope, is that the rage translates into an obsession that knows no limits. In essence, the end justifies the means. Suddenly, honesty is no longer a quality to be valued. All that matters is revenge. I guess that it's kind of like love and war. Anything goes. Anything's fair game. It doesn't matter how unreliable the source of one's information may be, if it makes the Church look bad and somebody might believe it, it's worth a shot.

 

[Witch of Hope]

In Cologne where I had lived for a while there is a town legend. The Saint Ursula was murdered with her to accompanying 11000 virgins because they refused to accept a pagan faith as their new faith. In the coat of arms of the city of Cologne this is symbolized by 11 flames. With thus I want to say that a martyr is somebody after general understanding which is ready to die FOR HIS/HER RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES AND FAITH. Was Joseph Smith this? After all what we know he wasn't it. Up to his final breath he hoped for rescue. First by the Nauvoo Legion, then by the Freemasons whose distress signal he proclaimed when he fell from the window.
So much to the question whether he was a martyr: He wasn't! Rather a suicide assassin of Al Quaida is a martyr, than Joseph Smith!
Now to something others:
Some, Mormons and putative non-Mormonsthink, I would pursue a sort of "LDS-BASHING". Everybody which knows me holds this accusation for absolute nonsense! The subject Mormon, I begin, like every other subject, essentially and unemotional. Only with personally affected subjects it can be different. Possibly to the subject, as Mormons handle with transsexuals and homosexual, or with sexual violence against children, mentioned also "child abuse". In both subjects I am concerned, and in both areas the leadership of the LDS is responsible for what happens:

* Children are thrown because of homosexuality or trans-sexuality on the street.

* Suicides of homosexual and transsexual Mormons.

* Tearing apart of families and friendship.

* The compulsion, in "healing programs" to take part (Evergreen internationally).

*Excommunication because of trans-sexuality and homosexuality, linked with social proscription.

* In unfortunately too many known cases, protection of the culprits and abasing of victims of child abuse.

* From the Mormon's leadership made Propositions to prevent the marriage for homosexuals. I hope, one day so Mormons lose their tax exemption

And these are only some points where I could leave the professionalism a little bit because I am concerned personally by it. Not more because of me, but because I think of all which are still in this sect. In the evening with the thought go to bed that they would be better dead because God and their church hates them. On the street are thrown where they must fight for their survival, and often enough prostitute themselves so, and take drugs to be able to endure everything generally. Blame on you for that, LDS!!!!!

 

[Witch of Hope]

I know, and I can understand that. (Actually, I can't fully understand, but I am trying to.) The problem with people like Witch of Hope, is that the rage translates into an obsession that knows no limits. In essence, the end justifies the means. Suddenly, honesty is no longer a quality to be valued. All that matters is revenge. I guess that it's kind of like love and war. Anything goes. Anything's fair game. It doesn't matter how unreliable the source of one's information may be, if it makes the Church look bad and somebody might believe it, it's worth a shot.

I can proof everything I have had told about the LDS, even about Child Abuse, Homosexual Suicides (I lost a good LDS friend of mine) and Evergreen-International! This has nothing to do with hate, but a lot to do with own experiences as victim and survivor.

 

[gnomon]

I still don't know whether or not Joseph Smith was a martyr!

No sleep for me tonight.

Oh woe is me.

 

[Witch of Hope]

Why are you screaming like a banshee?

I don't screaming, I just made a point clear. so clear that even Mormons can understand it.

 

[Witch of Hope]

I still don't know whether or not Joseph Smith was a martyr!

No sleep for me tonight.

Oh woe is me.

Good night, Gnomon!
I guess it is a matter of the different point of view Mormons, Non-Mormons and former Mormons had.

 

[Smoke]

Blame on you for that, LDS!!!!!

I agree whole-heartedly. But isn't that really the important thing? What's the use of arguing whether Joseph Smith was a martyr or not? It's just a distraction from the real issues.

 

[Witch of Hope]

@ Mestemia, I don't know you, and I had learned by bad experiences,that it is better to trust nobody fist. And sometimes I didn't trust myself!:angel2:

 

[Witch of Hope]

I agree whole-heartedly. But isn't that really the important thing? What's the use of arguing whether Joseph Smith was a martyr or not? It's just a distraction from the real issues.

I started this post you quote from whith the Legend from Cologne about Saint Ursula. Whith thus I want to make it clear, why JS never was a martyrer. He don't wanna die for his faith. He escaped first, than come back and want to be helped by the Nauvoo-Legion, a good friend wirh a gun and also the Freemasons help. He wanna life, not die and he want to be a king and the winner in this case. All this is well known even by LDS Historians.

 

[gnomon]

Good night, Gnomon!
I guess it is a matter of the different point of view Mormons, Non-Mormons and former Mormons had.

Did it ever occur to you that the definition of martyr is different for different people.

And it's not worth that much worrying oneself over.

 

[Smoke]

He wanna life, not die and he want to be a king and the winner in this case.

I agree with you about that, but again, the idea that you have to want to die to be a martyr isn't true. And I still think the harm the Church is doing today is far more important than anything about Joseph Smith.

When you attack Joseph Smith, all it does is make Mormons angry or defensive. It makes them even less willing than they might have been to listen to what you say about the injustices that are still being perpetrated by the Church.

 

[Witch of Hope]

When you attack Joseph Smith, all it does is make Mormons angry or defensive. It makes them even less willing than they might have been to listen to what you say about the injustices that are still being perpetrated by the Church.

I don't care what they will do or not. I tell the truth, and nothing more than the truth about this man. As I said once in an earlier post, he was just human. And he want to have the power not only over this church, he also want to have the power about the whole area as it is quoted here (unfortunally in German, but I try my best to translate it):

„In Bezug auf unser Stadtpatent, unsere Gerichte und das Recht auf
Vorführungsbefehle usw. möchte ich Sie wissen lassen und veröffentlichen, dass
WIR ALLE MACHT HABEN; und falls von dieser Zeit an irgendjemand
etwas Gegenteiliges sagt, so stopft es ihm zwischen die Zähne. Jede Macht, die
es in Illinois gab, gaben sie Nauvoo, und jeder, der etwas Gegenteiliges sagt, ist
ein Narr.“ (History of the Church, Bd. 5, Seite (Page) 466) Zitatquelle:
Joseph Smith - Politik mit Offenbarung vermischen

My try of a Translation from Joseph Smith own words:

„Concerning our city patent, our courts and the right at presentation orders etc. I would like to let know you and publish that WE ALL HAVE HAD THE POWER; and if thenceforward somebody says something contrary, it is filling to him between the teeth. They gave every power which there was in Illinois Nauvoo, and everybody which says something contrary is a fool.“

What does that mean?
If somebody want to put JS in Jail/Prison or bring him in front of a court, he could be punished and jailed, and only JS can set him free.
Is that American? Or isn't that rather a dictatorship?

 

[Witch of Hope]

Did it ever occur to you that the definition of martyr is different for different people.

And it's not worth that much worrying oneself over.

Yeah, but Mormons (as Christians or other monotheistic believers) want to be always at the right corner.:yes: