Joseph Smith's First Vision

[Hong Xiuquan]

For Mormons, the goal is not simply to be with God, but to grow to be like Him. The spirits who were with God in Heaven weren't all good and pure. Lucifer wasn't, and he was most certainly with God in Heaven

Thank you for your response. Satan was expelled after he sinned. Sin cannot be allowed to stay in a pure place like Heaven as it would contaminate it. This divine law was also in place in Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were evicted. It seems that sin can/ could remain in Heaven and Eden only for a very short time. For example, Adam and Eve were evicted straight after God came for his daily walk with Adam. We can therefore safely say that sin cannot be tolerated for very long as Adam was evicted within a day. Based on this, we can assume that Lucifer was evicted very quickly too.

Lucifer, arrogant and rebellious, was very much opposed to Jesus' offer and to their Father's Plan for the Salvation of mankind. Unlike Jesus, he wanted the plan to take away our free will. He was fine with us experiencing mortality, but it would be without the privilege of choosing for ourselves. Naturally, we couldn't learn if we were never given the opportunity to make mistakes, but that didn't matter to him. If we made so mistakes and committed no sins, there would be no need for a redeemer. (That would pretty much let him off the hook!) The thing is, he insisted that he receive all of the glory for getting all of us back into God's presence. Our Father in Heaven would essentially be forgotten and he would be our new God.

I'm still confused about Mormon theology by what you say here: "for getting us all back into God's presence". How could Satan get us back into God's presence? Do you mean that "if" we had no freewill we would automatically get back into Heaven? Do Mormons believe that saints and angels have freewill in Heaven? According to mainstream Christian theology, angels have freewill as that is how Lucifer and his followers rebelled. In regards to humans who die and then live in Heaven (if saved), it's generally believed that once we make it to Heaven we will not sin anymore.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you for your response. Satan was expelled after he sinned. Sin cannot be allowed to stay in a pure place like Heaven as it would contaminate it. This divine law was also in place in Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were evicted. It seems that sin can/ could remain in Heaven and Eden only for a very short time. For example, Adam and Eve were evicted straight after God came for his daily walk with Adam. We can therefore safely say that sin cannot be tolerated for very long as Adam was evicted within a day. Based on this, we can assume that Lucifer was evicted very quickly too.

Agreed. He and one-third of the host of Heaven were all expelled.

I'm still confused about Mormon theology by what you say here: "for getting us all back into God's presence". How could Satan get us back into God's presence?

He can't, but he thought he could. He assumed that we could all come to earth and experience mortality -- but without free will. He figured that if we were given no choice other than to do good (i.e. never even be put in a position where we could sin), we could all return to Heaven and he'd get all the credit.

Do you mean that "if" we had no freewill we would automatically get back into Heaven?

According to Satan's reasoning, this would have been the case. If we were actually prevented from sinning, there would be no reason for God not to allow us to return to Heaven. The problem is, without both good and evil, there really isn't a choice. If you're forced to choose good, you haven't really made a choice at all. You haven't learned or grown in any way. God wanted us to be able to experience good and evil, health and sickness, pleasure and pain, etc. In order for that to happen, we needed to live in a world where these opposites existed.

Do Mormons believe that saints and angels have freewill in Heaven?

Yes, but after the Last Judgment, there will be no one in Heaven that is not filled with the Spirit and desirous only of doing good.

According to mainstream Christian theology, angels have freewill as that is how Lucifer and his followers rebelled. In regards to humans who die and then live in Heaven (if saved), it's generally believed that once we make it to Heaven we will not sin anymore.

Yes, that is how we see it, too.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Katzpur: Thank you for your detailed response.....once again.

Yes, but after the Last Judgment, there will be no one in Heaven that is not filled with the Spirit and desirous only of doing good.

I'm unsure on the "exact" meaning of this statement Katzpur. You "seem" to be suggesting that Heaven is not a pure place....and contains "some" or "a little sin", and that it will become "perfect" in the future. Could you explain further? Thanks. God bless.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm unsure on the "exact" meaning of this statement Katzpur. You "seem" to be suggesting that Heaven is not a pure place....and contains "some" or "a little sin", and that it will become "perfect" in the future. Could you explain further? Thanks. God bless.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I believe that once Satan and the third of the host of Heaven were cast out, no sin of any kind remained in Heaven. It was and will be forever perfect. Hope that helps.

 

[viole]

Thank you for your response. Satan was expelled after he sinned. Sin cannot be allowed to stay in a pure place like Heaven as it would contaminate it. This divine law was also in place in Eden. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were evicted. It seems that sin can/ could remain in Heaven and Eden only for a very short time. For example, Adam and Eve were evicted straight after God came for his daily walk with Adam. We can therefore safely say that sin cannot be tolerated for very long as Adam was evicted within a day. Based on this, we can assume that Lucifer was evicted very quickly too.

A daily walk with Adam? Does God walk?

I'm still confused about Mormon theology by what you say here: "for getting us all back into God's presence". How could Satan get us back into God's presence? Do you mean that "if" we had no freewill we would automatically get back into Heaven? Do Mormons believe that saints and angels have freewill in Heaven? According to mainstream Christian theology, angels have freewill as that is how Lucifer and his followers rebelled. In regards to humans who die and then live in Heaven (if saved), it's generally believed that once we make it to Heaven we will not sin anymore.

[/quote]

What about you? Do you think you will have free will in Heaven?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Katzpur]

A daily walk with Adam? Does God walk?

Mormons believe He does.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

A daily walk with Adam? Does God walk?

The source for that is Genesis 3:8-10. If God can do anything, surely he can walk if he wishes to.

What about you? Do you think you will have free will in Heaven?

I believe that we will have freewill to a certain extent. But there is no sin in Heaven so maybe God takes away our desire to sin (Paul suggests this when he talks about people becoming perfect in Christ). I'm not sure how God does it, as our knowledge of Heaven is limited.

I'd like to hear your opinion too. Your questions are excellent ones.

 

[psychoslice]

I myself have been spoken by the lord, or whatever you want to call it, but I see no reason why to make a religion about it, to me that is the death of my inner being, to try to make others believe in what myself have experienced. We all need to experience the inner voice for ourselves, just as Smith did, the only difference is that he made a religion out of it, we don't have to do that at all, we ourselves are our own religion.

 

[viole]

The source for that is Genesis 3:8-10. If God can do anything, surely he can walk if he wishes to.

Well, we know that He can sit if He as a throne. Which could entail also that there is gravity in Heaven.

I believe that we will have freewill to a certain extent. But there is no sin in Heaven so maybe God takes away our desire to sin (Paul suggests this when he talks about people becoming perfect in Christ). I'm not sure how God does it, as our knowledge of Heaven is limited.

I'd like to hear your opinion too. Your questions are excellent ones.

There was no sin in Eden, either, until someone decide to sin. Considering the population of Eden at that time (2), that does not give me a lot of confidence regarding what will happens when you have a much vaster population, hopefully. And probably there was no sin in Heaven either, until some angels decided to sin.

Of course, God can take away our desire to sin, but that would be a pretty invasive operation on our free will (well, yours). And that would also beg the question: why didn't He do it from the start avoiding, thereby, all this mess?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Well, we know that He can sit if He as a throne. Which could entail also that there is gravity in Heaven.

Are you suggesting that Heaven could be like a planet? But you don't believe in Heaven, right? People can walk around Heaven, so I believe we could assume that gravity exists there. However, it says in the Bible that there is no light from a moon or sun as the source of Heaven's light is God himself.

Of course, God can take away our desire to sin, but that would be a pretty invasive operation on our free will (well, yours). And that would also beg the question: why didn't He do it from the start avoiding, thereby, all this mess?

Another great question. Heaven has different rules than Earth. We are given more freedom on Earth as it is here that we are tested. God wants to observe what we do, and see if we accept him. If we do, then we will go to live with him later.

Can you define a Gnostic Atheist? It seems a contradiction. Is this a serious label or a joke?

 

[viole]

Are you suggesting that Heaven could be like a planet? But you don't believe in Heaven, right? People can walk around Heaven, so I believe we could assume that gravity exists there. However, it says in the Bible that there is no light from a moon or sun as the source of Heaven's light is God himself.

You mean light like our light? That is electromagnetic radiation. It is not clear why God can be the source of electromagnetic radiation and not of gravitation, too. They are both quite physical.

Another great question. Heaven has different rules than Earth. We are given more freedom on Earth as it is here that we are tested. God wants to observe what we do, and see if we accept him. If we do, then we will go to live with him later.

Not everyone is tested. Some go to Heaven without any test. Why this different attitude between people? It does not seem very fair.

Can you define a Gnostic Atheist? It seems a contradiction. Is this a serious label or a joke?

I am a gnostic atheist because I know that there is no God. In the same way you know that there are no blue fairies. Unless you are agnostic about blue fairies, of course.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

You mean light like our light? That is electromagnetic radiation. It is not clear why God can be the source of electromagnetic radiation and not of gravitation, too. They are both quite physical.

The light may resemble sunlight but the Bible mentions that the source of the light is God and he illuminates the whole of Heaven.

Not everyone is tested. Some go to Heaven without any test. Why this different attitude between people? It does not seem very fair.

You will have to explain in more detail by what you mean. What do you mean by "some go to Heaven without a test?" Christians believe everyone is being tested whether they believe it or not.

I am a gnostic atheist because I know that there is no God. In the same way you know that there are no blue fairies. Unless you are agnostic about blue fairies, of course.

I'm sorry but "Gnostic" is a Christian theological term. I think it would be impossible to be a Gnostic and Atheist at the same time. I studied Gnosticism at Bible College. Gnostic is not the opposite to Agnostic, though I can see the logic in thinking that it would be. Gnostics were heretical Christians. Here is a definition I found online for you: On the general definition of Gnosticism a few authorities may be cited. "Gnosticism," says Dr. Gwatkin, "may be provisionally described as a number of schools of philosophy, oriental in general character, but taking in the idea of a redemption through Christ, and further modified in different sects by a third element, which may be Judaism, Hellenism, or Christianity .... the Gnostics took over only the idea of a redemption through Christ, not the full Christian doctrine, for they made it rather a redemption of the philosophers from matter, than a redemption of mankind from sin" (Early Church History to AD 313, II, 20). Source: www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/gnosticism.html

Do you still want to call yourself a Gnostic?

Regards Hong.

 

[viole]

The light may resemble sunlight but the Bible mentions that the source of the light is God and he illuminates the whole of Heaven.

What? No darkness? Will that be like our midnight sun in northern Sweden? I hope not.

You will have to explain in more detail by what you mean. What do you mean by "some go to Heaven without a test?" Christians believe everyone is being tested whether they believe it or not.

Then Christians do not think too much about it, sorry
There is evidence that only about 50% of all human fertilized eggs develop into a child, because of miscarriages or abortions. Add to them all kids who died very very young. Today and in the past.

According to my information, those souls will go to Heaven (correct me if I am wrong). Which it entails that more than the same amount of people who live today and lived in the past are now in Heaven, risk and test free. Unless you can tell me what test they had to pass?

I'm sorry but "Gnostic" is a Christian theological term. I think it would be impossible to be a Gnostic and Atheist at the same time. I studied Gnosticism at Bible College. Gnostic is not the opposite to Agnostic, though I can see the logic in thinking that it would be. Gnostics were heretical Christians. Here is a definition I found online for you: On the general definition of Gnosticism a few authorities may be cited. "Gnosticism," says Dr. Gwatkin, "may be provisionally described as a number of schools of philosophy, oriental in general character, but taking in the idea of a redemption through Christ, and further modified in different sects by a third element, which may be Judaism, Hellenism, or Christianity .... the Gnostics took over only the idea of a redemption through Christ, not the full Christian doctrine, for they made it rather a redemption of the philosophers from matter, than a redemption of mankind from sin" (Early Church History to AD 313, II, 20). Source: www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/gnosticism.html

Do you still want to call yourself a Gnostic?

Regards Hong.

Sure, gnostic means "having knowledge of". Form Greek ethymology. Don't confuse (Christian) gnosticism with being gnostic. It would be like confusing a cynical person with a supporter of a particular Hellenistic philosophy.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I myself have been spoken by the lord, or whatever you want to call it, but I see no reason why to make a religion about it, to me that is the death of my inner being, to try to make others believe in what myself have experienced. We all need to experience the inner voice for ourselves, just as Smith did, the only difference is that he made a religion out of it, we don't have to do that at all, we ourselves are our own religion.

Thank you for sharing. Personally, I'd like to hear your personal experience with God. Could you tell me about it?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

There is evidence that only about 50% of all human fertilized eggs develop into a child, because of miscarriages or abortions. Add to them all kids who died very very young. Today and in the past.

According to my information, those souls will go to Heaven (correct me if I am wrong). Which it entails that more than the same amount of people who live today and lived in the past are now in Heaven, risk and test free. Unless you can tell me what test they had to pass?

Ok....I understand where you are coming from now. Thanks for the clarification. Yes, most Christians believe that a sinless child will go directly to Heaven. Yes, and without a test. I was referring to people who have reached the age to know the difference between right and wrong.I believe this too.

 

[viole]

Ok....I understand where you are coming from now. Thanks for the clarification. Yes, most Christians believe that a sinless child will go directly to Heaven. Yes, and without a test. I was referring to people who have reached the age to know the difference between right and wrong.I believe this too.

Good, but that is unfair. What have those kids done to be so lucky to die almost immediately?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Good, but that is unfair. What have those kids done to be so lucky to die almost immediately?

Ciao

- viole

Yes...it does seem unfair. I thought about that a lot when I was younger. With Christian logic, it is better to die when you are young and innocent (sinless). However, you don't need to worry, right? Because you said "I know there is no God".

 

[viole]

Yes...it does seem unfair. I thought about that a lot when I was younger. With Christian logic, it is better to die when you are young and innocent (sinless). However, you don't need to worry, right? Because you said "I know there is no God".

I am not worried at all. Obviously. My questions are always based under the assumption that Christianity is true. As a mathematician I like to defeat the premises based on the absurdity of the conclusion

And I think that the absurdity here is a s big as a house. Most souls that inhabit Heaven did not have to pass any test, they did not have to resist temptation, they did not have to accept Jesus even if born in places where Jesus is mainstream, they did not have to do anything at all, just straight entrance to Heaven, and possibly with an invasive operation on their free will so that they could not sin.

So, if Jesus acceptance is the only way to achieve salvation, then, in the interest of intellectually honesty, I would add "for a minority of unlucky souls".

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

So, if Jesus acceptance is the only way to achieve salvation, then, in the interest of intellectually honesty, I would add "for a minority of unlucky souls".

It could be fair to say that. There may be a lot more people in Heaven than we think. Thanks for sharing your ideas. It's great that some people who are not Christian can understand Christian theology. Can you do the same with the other religions too?

 

[viole]

It could be fair to say that. There may be a lot more people in Heaven than we think. Thanks for sharing your ideas. It's great that some people who are not Christian can understand Christian theology. Can you do the same with the other religions too?

Yes. I think I could the same with other religions too. After all, I have an edge on Christianity, just because I am an ex-born again.

Ciao

- viole