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Joseph Smith's First Vision

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
  1. To become like God we must know his true character: "For this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom though hast sent" John 17:3
I think there is no proof that scripture commands the knowing of God's true character. I think John 17:3 means to know in the sense of distinguishing righteousness (God and Jesus Christ) from unrighteousness (the World).

We have a lot of thoughts. Knowing which ones are for righteousness and which ones are to be rejected is to "know" God and Jesus Christ. He is The Word. Is he not?
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
I think there is no proof that scripture commands the knowing of God's true character. I think John 17:3 means to know in the sense of distinguishing righteousness (God and Jesus Christ) from unrighteousness (the World).

We have a lot of thoughts. Knowing which ones are for righteousness and which ones are to be rejected is to "know" God and Jesus Christ. He is The Word. Is he not?

You are correct. But God is Righteousness. No one can know righteousness without knowing God.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are correct. But God is Righteousness. No one can know righteousness without knowing God.
Really? Are you sure? There are a whole lot of people on forum who seem to know righteousness about a lot of things. They do not even want to know God. How do they do it?

Maybe you mean that no one can know supreme righteousness without knowing God. I do not think that will ever happen for anyone. Ever. To know God is to be God's equal. Something Jesus taught us not to do.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Katzpur: thank you for your time in answering my question. Do LDS folk also believe in any prophets between Peter and JS?
Not in the way you're probably thinking. You are aware, no doubt, that Catholics believe Peter's authority was passed on to the individual believed to succeed him as the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope). Like the Catholics, we do believe that Peter was chosen by Christ to act as head of His Church after His death. We do not believe the Bishop of Rome was any more important than the bishop of any other congregation, and we do not believe that he succeeded Peter as the head of the Church (i.e. as the "Prophet"). We don't believe anyone succeeded Peter until Joseph Smith was given the role of Prophet.

Do you class Paul as a prophet?
In a sense. But I'll have to explain how things work in the LDS Church today in order for your to be able to understand what I mean. Today, the Church is led by a President (a.k.a. "the Prophet"), his two counselors, and a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. If you include his two counselors, there are a total of 14 individuals besides "the Prophet" who are collectively known as "prophets, seers and revelators." However -- and this is important -- "the Prophet" (i.e. the President of the Church) alone is designated by God to be the individual through whom the Lord will reveal any new doctrine, if any, for the Church as a whole. In other words, another one of the Apostles could never say to the group, "I've received a revelation and here it is." "The prophet" (the President of the Church) is the only person who can do that.

When the President of the Church dies, the authority he alone had is automatically transferred to the Twelve. At that time, they become temporarily "the Prophet." (This could not happen unless they had previously been ordained as "prophets, seers and revelators.") Not individual, but collectively, they are given the same authority as the President of the Church had had during the time of his service. Together, they once again fast and pray to determine who the new "Prophet" should be (and it will almost definitely be the one of them who has served in the Quorum the longest).

We see Paul as having been a "prophet, seer" and revelator" just as today's apostles are, but do not believe he ever held the role Peter did. I should also probably add that we believe that God has spoken to and inspired many individuals throughout the centuries since Christ. Among them would be the Protestant Reformers. That does not mean that we consider them to be actual prophets.
 
So, I believe by your lack of testimony that you have not had a prophecy come true as a confirmation.

Any prophecy that came true from me or someone in my present church, or past church, would not be accepted by you as valid because I'm not a Mormon.
 
I am not making any judgment concerning the salvation of William Branham. God alone is in charge of that issue and knows each person's heart and motives. Neither do I deny that miraculous events occur in this present age, although I do think many so-called miracles are fake or demonic. My personal perspective is that William Branham espoused teachings which were contradictory to the Bible and he displayed behavior which appeared to indicate demonic influence.

"In contradiction to the clear word of God and Jesus being the only one worthy to open the seals Branham said he saw seven Angels in a form of a pyramid that swept down and picked him up. “And I was brought east to open the Seven Seals for God . Rev. 5:1-9 says that Jesus opens the seals and it did not take place yet. It happens in the Tribulation.


While conducting healing services Branham would often fall into a trance during which his angel would work through him. Asked once if the healings were done by the Holy Spirit, Branham replied, "No, my angel does it." Branham could not do any healing until the angel would show up. Branham assumed this angel was Jesus (the angel of the Lord) the one who guided him through his life since his childhood. but Jesus is no angel and he did not personally show up at Branham's meetings."
excerpt from:

Branham's beliefs

Thank you for sharing your perspective on Branham. I haven't read about the seals vision before. It must be a later vision from when the book I've got was written. In regards to the last paragraph: I've read that before. It was written by one of Branham's right hand men. However, after reading the whole article, I find some statements hard to believe like "I never saw Branham actually heal anyone", when even American newspapers were reporting stories of healings. If there were no healings, why did 1000s of people say there were and why did people turn up if they hadn't seen a healing or heard of one? What the guy says doesn't make sense.

However, in regards to things that Branham said that are unscriptural, it's another story. People have his recorded sermons.

Some Christian leaders have gone astray....we have all heard stories about this. However, before they go astray, they can do great works for God. I believe that we should not discredit the whole life of a person and the books they have written before they left God. Branham may have left God at the end of his life. And a person can leave God slowly....so if he did, it may be hard to know exactly what part of his life we can use and which we can't. Branham left over 1000 recorded sermons. I'd have to look at every one and see if the content matched scripture. This would take a huge amount of time. Personally, I don't think Branham is that important to me to warrant such an undertaking.
 
Not in the way you're probably thinking. You are aware, no doubt, that Catholics believe Peter's authority was passed on to the individual believed to succeed him as the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope). Like the Catholics, we do believe that Peter was chosen by Christ to act as head of His Church after His death. We do not believe the Bishop of Rome was any more important than the bishop of any other congregation, and we do not believe that he succeeded Peter as the head of the Church (i.e. as the "Prophet"). We don't believe anyone succeeded Peter until Joseph Smith was given the role of Prophet.

In a sense. But I'll have to explain how things work in the LDS Church today in order for your to be able to understand what I mean. Today, the Church is led by a President (a.k.a. "the Prophet"), his two counselors, and a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. If you include his two counselors, there are a total of 14 individuals besides "the Prophet" who are collectively known as "prophets, seers and revelators." However -- and this is important -- "the Prophet" (i.e. the President of the Church) alone is designated by God to be the individual through whom the Lord will reveal any new doctrine, if any, for the Church as a whole. In other words, another one of the Apostles could never say to the group, "I've received a revelation and here it is." "The prophet" (the President of the Church) is the only person who can do that.

When the President of the Church dies, the authority he alone had is automatically transferred to the Twelve. At that time, they become temporarily "the Prophet." (This could not happen unless they had previously been ordained as "prophets, seers and revelators.") Not individual, but collectively, they are given the same authority as the President of the Church had had during the time of his service. Together, they once again fast and pray to determine who the new "Prophet" should be (and it will almost definitely be the one of them who has served in the Quorum the longest).

We see Paul as having been a "prophet, seer" and revelator" just as today's apostles are, but do not believe he ever held the role Peter did. I should also probably add that we believe that God has spoken to and inspired many individuals throughout the centuries since Christ. Among them would be the Protestant Reformers. That does not mean that we consider them to be actual prophets.

Thank you for explaining that.
 
Any man made religion will be of the flesh, and seek fleshly things like sex. Islam and Mormonism (at its birth) are polygamous and men can have multiple wives. Interestingly enough, the founders of said (fleshly) religions had around 12 (Muhammad) and around 40 (Joseph Smith).
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." (Matthew 7:17-18)
Joseph Smiths Religion is full of Thornbushes and Thistles.

Muhammad had 10 wives.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Thank you for sharing your perspective on Branham. I haven't read about the seals vision before. It must be a later vision from when the book I've got was written. In regards to the last paragraph: I've read that before. It was written by one of Branham's right hand men. However, after reading the whole article, I find some statements hard to believe like "I never saw Branham actually heal anyone", when even American newspapers were reporting stories of healings. If there were no healings, why did 1000s of people say there were and why did people turn up if they hadn't seen a healing or heard of one? What the guy says doesn't make sense.

However, in regards to things that Branham said that are unscriptural, it's another story. People have his recorded sermons.

Some Christian leaders have gone astray....we have all heard stories about this. However, before they go astray, they can do great works for God. I believe that we should not discredit the whole life of a person and the books they have written before they left God. Branham may have left God at the end of his life. And a person can leave God slowly....so if he did, it may be hard to know exactly what part of his life we can use and which we can't. Branham left over 1000 recorded sermons. I'd have to look at every one and see if the content matched scripture. This would take a huge amount of time. Personally, I don't think Branham is that important to me to warrant such an undertaking.
Thank you for your thoughts, also. I agree that Christian leaders may go astray, but that does not necessarily mean God did not accomplish much through their life or that all their work should be discarded. I just think that when a leader begins straying from the scriptures and teaching unbiblical things or displaying ungodly behavior discernment and caution are in order. But I agree with you Branham is not that important to devote a lot of time to, since our time, focus, and devotion is to be on Christ.
 
You are saying that since the time of Christ and His Apostles, God has had nothing more to say to us, and you are basing this belief on the Bible. It would be one thing if this is what the Bible itself taught, but that isn't the case.

God can speak to us for sure....but: 1. We have to be careful that it is actually God, 2. The Bible is a closed canon. It was agreed upon a long time ago in an international church council, to stop heresy from seeping in, and to protect the integrity of the Bible, and 3. Jesus said he would come again in the clouds of glory. We have not seen this event yet....therefore, based on this, he did not go and live in another land called America and choose another 12 disciples (said in a normal tone with no aggression attached).
 
Christian always want to quote Paul. I don't know why they call themselves followers of Jesus.

Yes....Christians do quote Paul a lot. I don't see anything wrong with it. Paul was a Christian scholar and leader of the early Christian church. We are not followers of Paul. We are called Christians because we believe we are saved through the blood of Christ. Paul is not God, and he didn't die for mankind (said nicely in a pleasant tone).
 
Mormons believe that Paul was an Apostle of Christ. That's why we quote him.

Katzpur....before I forget....I wish to discuss this: I'm still trying to get my head around the need for a Mormon to be saved by the blood of Christ and for the need to be baptized. Why? Because Mormon folk believe that everyone on Earth was in the pre-existence as spirit beings. They were with God before...in Heaven. Only pure, saved people can be near and live with God. If unsaved and impure they would contaminate Heaven. Therefore, a spirit that was in the pre-existence would have already been saved. They come to Earth as saved beings....and leave as saved beings. Where is the need for water baptism and the covering of the blood sacrifice of Christ? (please take my words in a nice way). God bless.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Any comments about this? Have you read this vision before? If so, what is your interpretation? God bless.

What I find interesting is that these so called "prophets" always seem to be alone (no witnesses) when they receive their visions. In other words, they can just MSU and pawn it off on others.
 
It is very personal, but I've shared it online before. To just quote myself, I'll paste it here so as not to have to retype everything. Tell me if this doesn't sound similar to JS. I'll explain more in detail after just sharing this:

I fully believe you experienced that. I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?

Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.

I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love. I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life.​

Ok, so what you see above corresponds with JS's experience, which also corresponds with a lot of people's peak experiences like this. These are not uncommon. Allow me to do a side by side comparison of what he said, with what I experienced:

JS: " immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction."

Me: I had slipped into the state of deep sleep where I became consciously aware my life was slipping away. I saw blackness everywhere crushing down on me, snuffing out my very existence. I KNEW I was going to die, that everything was being lost and I would become no more. Fear seized me so I could not move or speak or wake myself from this terror.

JS: "But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me."

Me: In that moment of absolute terror that blackness was swallowing my life into death, I put forth everything within in in one last hope and cried out with everything within me, "God help me!". At the instant, everything ceased. There was infinite White Light that came down in an instant from above and filled every space to where I had no other awareness save for that which enveloped me in Infinite Love, Infinite Compassion, Infinite Peace, Infinite Awareness in but a sliver of an infinity beyond itself, which was infinite in itself. Time did not exist.

JS: "It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"

Me: There was nothing but this Infinite Love, and Infinite Mind looking down upon me, as it were, with such Grace that it was greater than the power of the whole universe, yet held in Infinite Compassion. I heard my name spoken in a pure voice in a single word to my mind, then saw my life from my childhood on, with the knowledge that this Infinite Power, this Infinite Being was always there, and I with it despite my own unawareness.​

So, now that we have established that I too have had what is pretty parallel to the description given by Joseph Smith, up to the point he goes off into a theological quibble with the established religions of his day and believes he is called to start of new religion, you can see that the experience is the same, but how these are understood are matters of the person's individual interpretations. I will happily go down that road of discussion with you. These sorts of experiences are not uncommon. They are very similar. But how people interpret them, what they do with them, will differ of course.

But be assured, my experience happened as described by me, and that description does not begin to come close to truly describing what is beyond description. And, as a mystic now today, I find my home back in the arms of this every time in meditation, there is Knowledge there to be had, but I do not interpret this to go start a new religion. I look forward to your thoughts, and I share them with you because you impress me as a thoughtful person, otherwise I wouldn't.

Windwalker: Thank you for sharing your experience. It was very interesting to read. I don't know why you got no response from the minister and priest. Like you say, you experience could be interpreted in different ways. For me, I believe it was God that gave you the experience. What do base this on? You mention about your whole life flashing before your eyes....so for me, these are key words. I don't believe any evil spirit could have shown you that. Demons are not that powerful. Ezekiel, in the Bible, sat, overwhelmed for 7 days after his first vision (Ezekiel 3:15).

Because you have shared with us, I'd like to share my NDE with you too. When I was 5 years old, I was in a public swimming pool. I couldn't swim and I was near my parents in the shallow end. There were some steps going down into the pool. I was going up and down the steps like little kids do. After some time, I decided to step off the last step which would mean the water was over my head. I didn't realize that I would float off a bit as I did so. I tried to locate the step again but I couldn't. I then had my experience....which was not as long as yours because it was interrupted. I started to feel like I was drifting off to sleep.....and my whole body felt like it was curled up and going around and around...over and over....like rolly pollies, but in the water, without touching the floor of the pool. It was an absolutely wonderful experience. I'll never forget it. If that is what dying will be like for me, then I have nothing to fear. While I was enjoying the sheer beauty of the experience, my father had seen that I was drowning....and had grabbed me and pulled me out. I remember the amazing contrast of when I was pulled out. I was coughing really badly and bringing up water. The beautiful experience changed to a scary one....and I realized that I had almost died.

God bless.
 
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