Joseph Smith's First Vision

[Thanda]

How much do you know about Mormonism? I think the fact that Joseph was informed during his spiritual vision that the local churches were ALL apostate and that he would be the one used to bring a restoration of the church and gospel to the earth is a huge indicator that he was being used to bring along another false gospel and religion because the scriptures are clear that the biblical faith was once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). This is much more than pointing out faults of denominations, it is a complete attack on the gospel and faith which was given by Jesus and the apostles, recorded in the scriptures, passed down and lived out throughout generations of faithful believers over the centuries. A pattern of attack to undermine the truth which has been repeated numerous times and in numerous ways.. .Mormonism and The Pattern of all False Religions

Joseph Smith said God told him there was no true church and that he should join none of them. If you disagree would you like to point out which churches were actually true?

 

[Pegg]

Can't you see that you sound exactly like the Pharisees? Did they not accuse Jesus of being in cooperation with Satan? Did Jesus not speak to Moses and Elijah who had apparently died a long time ago? Do you think Jesus was a spiriticist?

Joseph was an occultist. He was known for it...he earned money from it.

 

[Thanda]

Joseph was an occultist. He was known for it...he earned money from it.

You're not answering the question. Jesus was also known magician or trickster who was in league with the devil - that is part of the reason why they killed him.

So I'm asking you if you cannot see that you sound exactly like the Pharisees. I'm asking you that since Jesus was "known" as an occultist, do you also accept that he is part of the occult.

 

[Pegg]

You're not answering the question. Jesus was also known magician or trickster who was in league with the devil - that is part of the reason why they killed him.

Jesus had supernatural powers because he was being used by Jehovah for that purpose.

Its not spiritism when God is behind it.... its only spiritism when the demons are behind it.

 

[Thanda]

Jesus had supernatural powers because he was being used by Jehovah for that purpose.

Its not spiritism when God is behind it.... its only spiritism when the demons are behind it.

Ah now we're getting somewhere. So has God told you that he did not speak to Joseph Smith?

 

[Muffled]

I can confirm from the Holy Spirit, the presense of God, that lives in me, and from the word of God that I am correct.

So, I believe by your lack of testimony that you have not had a prophecy come true as a confirmation.

 

[Katzpur]

What I mean is: Is there a prophecy or scripture that there will be a priesthood authority in the future?

Priesthood authority is the power given to men, by God, to act in His name. Jesus Christ gave this authority to His Apostles before He died. It was through this authority that they were to administer the ordinances (i.e. sacraments) of His Church. Throughout the New Testament we can see evidence that this was the case.

As far as the rest of your post goes, you really need to understand that posting lengthy passages of scripture for me to read is an enormous waste of your time. Not only am I already aware of all of these scriptures, they actually prove my point -- that Paul was concerned about a impending apostasy. He was constantly warning the members of Christ's Church to be on guard and to not be influenced by the forces that were trying to undermine the Church. This is what an apostasy is all about!

You ask why the need for the Church to be reestablished at any time in the future. My first response to that was to ask you, "Why in the world aren't you a Catholic?" The Catholic Church has been around a lot longer than any evangelical Christian Church has. Why don't you believe it's the Church Jesus Christ founded?

 

[Katzpur]

Yes...it is true that the new gospel was not delivered via the vision we are discussing but the book of Mormon is another gospel of JC according to Mormons. Is this not correct? (Said politely).

"Another gospel" means something entirely different from "another testament." Another testament is merely another witness. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are each a book bearing witness of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Savior of the world. The Book of Mormon does the same thing.

 

[InChrist]

It seems odd that you would ask someone how much he knows about Mormonism and then go on to provide him with inaccurate information. Could you please quote from Joseph Smith's history (i.e. the part about the First Vision) where he says that he was told he would be the one used to bring a restoration of the church and gospel to the earth? Good luck with that.

You are correct. In the recorded first vision Joseph is not told he will be the one to bring a restoration of the church. He only told at that point ALL the present churches, denominations, and sects of his day are wrong and their creeds were an abomination. It was later he was told that God had a work for him to do... 33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people. 34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;(Joseph Smith History Ch. 1, vs. 33-34) Joseph Smith—History 1:33-34

It is interesting to note that during the second visitation which took place in Joseph Smith’s bedroom, Joseph states that verses from the Bible were quoted to him by Nephi ( (Joseph Smith History) or Moroni (The Joseph Smith Papers) with VARIATION. I think this is a red flag warning in itself of the demonic source of this spiritual encounter. Along with that the message given through this twisting of the scriptures was the basis for the false doctrine which claimed a re-establishment of the priesthood by Joseph Smith and that the LDS Church is the only true church with said priesthood .

After telling me these things he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old testament, he first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as reads in our books he quoted it thus, “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud <yea> and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for <they> that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” And again he quoted the fifth verse thus, “Behold I will reveal unto you the Priesthood by the hand of Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” He also quoted the next verse differently,
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperS...istory-circa-june-1839-circa-1841-draft-2&p=5

So Nephi or Moroni, who were most likely demonic beings appearing as angels of light, used and changed OT scriptures, inserting extra words which were contrary to God's expressed truth in the NT. According to the Bible Jesus is the unique High Priest (Heb. 7:23-8:13) and all believers have priesthood authority (1 Peter 2:5, 9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). It is not an authority which was ever missing from the earth or needed to be restored to a certain church organization with Joseph Smith as a prophet to claim such a role. I believe Joseph Smith was either presumptuous in his claim to be a prophet or he was completely deceived. Given his history of involvement with occult practices for treasure hunting it was probably a combination of both in order to fulfill his fleshly lusts. He certainly put himself in a position to do so as leader and prophet of the Mormon Church having the power to rule over the lives of so many, even to the point of taking 40 wives for himself, many who were already married.

Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6

 

[InChrist]

Joseph Smith said God told him there was no true church and that he should join none of them. If you disagree would you like to point out which churches were actually true?

Any church which proclaimed the gospel message of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and His resurrection power of eternal life for all who believe would have been true enough.

 

[InChrist]

I'll accept that some people will believe that. Have you read the most famous book titled "William Branham: A man sent from God" by Gordon Lindsay. After reading it many times I really get a sense that he really loved God deeply. I've also read "Adventures in God' by John G. Lake quite a few times. He also had a deep love for God. Here is my opinion: Both men have had a lot of opposition and there are many true Christians attacking what they did because they can't understand it. Some of the Christians attacking don't believe miracles are possible and ceased with the apostles. There is a lot of evidence for and against William Branham. I'll accept that. Some even suggest he didn't heal anyone. However, there are actual reported cases from reporters in Branham's book (above) as well as online. One interesting online story I found was of a girl who had no eyeballs in her sockets and eyeballs were given to the girl after prayer. The parents became Christians after it happened. Praise God. Branham always said that the purpose for the miracles was to bring people to Christ. The story brought tears to my eyes when I read it.

It seems like Branham "could" have gone astray in his last years, like King David did with Bathsheba. Does that mean that David didn't love God when he was younger? Do we write someone's work off if they leave God at the end? Their work at the beginning of their lives can still be valid and holy, right? I'm still doing more research into Branham's last years. I really don't like his sermon about Adam and Eve (a later teaching), and I disagree with some other sermons too. I actually contacted the online center for Voice of God Ministries, which is the Ministry that continues Branham's work. The online correspondent answered my first questions, which were mainly in regards to the Branhamism. He wasn't happy that a small minority group of Branham supporters had started their own religion and were actually worshipping Branham like a god. He said they had no connection to his ministry. In the second email to him, I asked some questions about the Eve and serpent interpretation of Branham's and the guy must have taken offence to my question as he didn't reply. I told him I wasn't attacking him..... but you have to understand that these guys are getting attacked on a daily basis. He probably just thought I was another attacker. Finding out the actual truth about someone like Branham seems to be a very difficult thing to do. However, did he teach salvation through the blood of Christ alone? Yes. If he was teaching a different type of salvation like Joseph Smith taught, then I'd agree that the Devil was involved in his ministry.

Branham did have strange experiences with God as mentioned in the book above. I have an even stranger book by the leader of a group of Pentecostals. They really loved God but weird stuff happened. If you haven't read the book, I'd recommend it. It's called "Following the Fire" by Gerald Derstine. You can find it online. You could interpret the stuff in that book in two ways....demonic or the work of the HS. It really depends on your views as a Christian. I believe in tongues. But there are countless books out there by good Christians who believe that tongues are of the Devil.

Thank you for raising the question...it's an important one. I'll be looking for Branham in Heaven. If he's not there, then I'll know, he left God at the end. I'll leave you with the words of the correspondent though: "Branham, right to the very end was a man of God, and he was even seen praying for his wife as she lay dying."

God bless.

I am not making any judgment concerning the salvation of William Branham. God alone is in charge of that issue and knows each person's heart and motives. Neither do I deny that miraculous events occur in this present age, although I do think many so-called miracles are fake or demonic. My personal perspective is that William Branham espoused teachings which were contradictory to the Bible and he displayed behavior which appeared to indicate demonic influence.

"In contradiction to the clear word of God and Jesus being the only one worthy to open the seals Branham said he saw seven Angels in a form of a pyramid that swept down and picked him up. “And I was brought east to open the Seven Seals for God . Rev. 5:1-9 says that Jesus opens the seals and it did not take place yet. It happens in the Tribulation.


While conducting healing services Branham would often fall into a trance during which his angel would work through him. Asked once if the healings were done by the Holy Spirit, Branham replied, "No, my angel does it." Branham could not do any healing until the angel would show up. Branham assumed this angel was Jesus (the angel of the Lord) the one who guided him through his life since his childhood. but Jesus is no angel and he did not personally show up at Branham's meetings."
excerpt from:
Branham's beliefs

 

[Katzpur]

You are correct. In the recorded first vision Joseph is not told he will be the one to bring a restoration of the church. He only told at that point ALL the present churches, denominations, and sects of his day are wrong and their creeds were an abomination. It was later he was told that God had a work for him to do... 33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people. 34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;(Joseph Smith History Ch. 1, vs. 33-34) Joseph Smith—History 1:33-34

It is interesting to note that during the second visitation which took place in Joseph Smith’s bedroom, Joseph states that verses from the Bible were quoted to him by Nephi ( (Joseph Smith History) or Moroni (The Joseph Smith Papers) with VARIATION. I think this is a red flag warning in itself of the demonic source of this spiritual encounter. Along with that the message given through this twisting of the scriptures was the basis for the false doctrine which claimed a re-establishment of the priesthood by Joseph Smith and that the LDS Church is the only true church with said priesthood .

Obviously you and I would define "demonic" quite differently.

After telling me these things he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old testament, he first quoted part of the third chapter of Malachi and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as reads in our books he quoted it thus, “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud <yea> and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for <they> that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” And again he quoted the fifth verse thus, “Behold I will reveal unto you the Priesthood by the hand of Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” He also quoted the next verse differently,
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperS...istory-circa-june-1839-circa-1841-draft-2&p=5

So Nephi or Moroni, who were most likely demonic beings appearing as angels of light, used and changed OT scriptures, inserting extra words which were contrary to God's expressed truth in the NT. According to the Bible Jesus is the unique High Priest (Heb. 7:23-8:13) and all believers have priesthood authority (1 Peter 2:5, 9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). It is not an authority which was ever missing from the earth or needed to be restored to a certain church organization with Joseph Smith as a prophet to claim such a role. I believe Joseph Smith was either presumptuous in his claim to be a prophet or he was completely deceived. Given his history of involvement with occult practices for treasure hunting it was probably a combination of both in order to fulfill his fleshly lusts. He certainly put himself in a position to do so as leader and prophet of the Mormon Church having the power to rule over the lives of so many, even to the point of taking 40 wives for himself, many who were already married.

Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6

If you could prove that anyone added to God's words, you might have a point. But you don't, so you don't.

 

[Thanda]

Any church which proclaimed the gospel message of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and His resurrection power of eternal life for all who believe would have been true enough.

Okay, so if I start church today proclaiming the very message you have said while doing staged "miracles" in order to get more money in; while encouraging unbelievers to divorce their spouses and all the women under thirty to get married to me: are you telling me that my church would be one of the true churches on earth?

 

[InChrist]

Obviously you and I would define "demonic" quite differently.

If you could prove that anyone added to God's words, you might have a point. But you don't, so you don't.

The account of Joseph Smith itself states that words were added by the messenger, Nephi or Moroni. Malachi 4:5 says...Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Yet, Joseph Smith states in his account that the words in bold were added...Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah. So there you have it, words were added to God's written word. Added words which became the basis for a new religion revolving around the establishment of an altered OT style priesthood and church authority instead of the biblical truth revealed in the NT. Actually, not really too much different than the Catholic Church.

 

[JFish123]

Any man made religion will be of the flesh, and seek fleshly things like sex. Islam and Mormonism (at its birth) are polygamous and men can have multiple wives. Interestingly enough, the founders of said (fleshly) religions had around 12 (Muhammad) and around 40 (Joseph Smith).
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." (Matthew 7:17-18)
Joseph Smiths Religion is full of Thornbushes and Thistles.

 

[Katzpur]

The account of Joseph Smith itself states that words were added by the messenger, Nephi or Moroni. Malachi 4:5 says...Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Yet, Joseph Smith states in his account that the words in bold were added...Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah. So there you have it, words were added to God's written word. Added words which became the basis for a new religion revolving around the establishment of an altered OT style priesthood and church authority instead of the biblical truth revealed in the NT. Actually, not really too much different than the Catholic Church.

So there I have it, huh? Every word in the Bible was written by one of God's messengers. If you want to tell God to shut up because we've heard enough, go right ahead, but He never said He was through talking.

 

[Muffled]

Muffled: " I believe no such new gospel is to be found in the vision."

Yes...it is true that the new gospel was not delivered via the vision we are discussing but the book of Mormon is another gospel of JC according to Mormons. Is this not correct? (Said politely).

I believe that is off topic but the answer is that is what I was told and of course it is not since the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and not new.

 

[Muffled]

How much do you know about Mormonism? I think the fact that Joseph was informed during his spiritual vision that the local churches were ALL apostate and that he would be the one used to bring a restoration of the church and gospel to the earth is a huge indicator that he was being used to bring along another false gospel and religion because the scriptures are clear that the biblical faith was once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). This is much more than pointing out faults of denominations, it is a complete attack on the gospel and faith which was given by Jesus and the apostles, recorded in the scriptures, passed down and lived out throughout generations of faithful believers over the centuries. A pattern of attack to undermine the truth which has been repeated numerous times and in numerous ways.. .Mormonism and The Pattern of all False Religions

I believe not much. They stopped visiting after I told them that God told me the supposed angel Moroni was actaully a demon.

I don't beleive that was reported in his first writing of his vision. If he had more to say later I am not aware of it.

This also is not in the first reporting of the vision but I have heard something to this affect. I believe they have not achieved that objective.

I believe that works for those to whom it was delivered but there are apostate churches in our time and there is not likely to be a restoration of the gospel for them.

Again I believe it is not in this vision.

I believe that can be said for a number of churches since none of them have the complete truth. I believe you can impress me if you can point out how the current church undermines the gospel.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe that is off topic but the answer is that is what I was told and of course it is not since the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and not new.

In order to be accurate, you probably said, "I believe the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction."

 

[Muffled]

In Chist said "I believe he was heavily influenced by the occult and perpetuated many heretical teachings."

I believe I am often considered a heretic which basicly means I have differentinterpetations from those of the churches that I have attended. I have occult in my background and still do but God has never taken exception to it. It is like a poisonous snake, dangerous until the poison is removed.