Muffled
Jesus in me
As I have mentioned in the past and perhaps you have forgotten I believe that because God told me so.
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Joseph Smith's First Vision
- Thread starter Hong Xiuquan
- Start date
As I have mentioned in the past and perhaps you have forgotten I believe that because God told me so.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I used to have a link to his writings but that has gone away. I found at times that he might not be correct in his theology but at times his insight is quite helpful. I haven't read either book but I do have some experience with the charismatic community. I believe once a person opens himself to spiritual guidance that a lack of focus could lead to a visitation from an evil spirit. I don't believe such occurances detract from real experiences of the Holy Spirit.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I haven't forgotten. I was merely pointing out that your "belief" (regardless of what it is based on) is still just a belief, as is mine, of course.
InChrist
Free4ever
I'm not telling God to shut up, as I believe the biblical scriptures are powerfully alive as He speaks whenever they are read or heard . Besides the scriptures contain all the information needed for anyone to understand the gospel message of salvation and eternal life and know Jesus Christ as the promised Savior of the world. What more could ever be needed than this, the greatest of news and ultimate revelation?
InChrist
Free4ever
Okay, that's fine. Have a goodnight.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You are saying that since the time of Christ and His Apostles, God has had nothing more to say to us, and you are basing this belief on the Bible. It would be one thing if this is what the Bible itself taught, but that isn't the case.
InChrist
Free4ever
Well. I disagree. I'm not saying God has nothing more to say since as I already said the scriptures are alive and I believe God speaks afresh through them. I do think from my reading of the Bible that it is the case that no further revelation is necessary for humanity to understand the way of salvation through Christ.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
What I mean is: Is there a prophecy or scripture that there will be a priesthood authority in the future?
Hi Katzpur,
Acts 20:29
28. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31. "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32. "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
Let us check the whole context of the passage you have given. Paul warned the elders of the church to be on guard from the false teachings that may draw away the disciples. In the succeeding verses, there is no mention of the the re-establishment of the church? Where is it?
2 Thessalonians 2
Man of Lawlessness
1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him,
2. that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17. comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.
In v.3, Paul warned them “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” He even said that the man of lawlessness was revealed. They know who is it. In v.4, he describes the characteristic of the son of destruction and those will display signs and wonders as activity of Satan (v.9). For those who did not accept the gospel or the word of truth, God will send a delusion for them and give them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions. So what they will do? Paul address the solution from this lawlessness, he said “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” Where is the command of re-establishment of the church?
Perversion of the Gospel (Gal.1:6-10)
6. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7. which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
10. For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
This is still a warning at v.8 to be aware from the gospel contrary to what Paul had preached them. There is no command of re-establishment of the church.
2 Tim.4:1-8
Preach the Word"
1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.
5. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
7. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8. in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Paul advised them to be ready, preach the word and be sober in all things. He encouraged them to fulfill the ministry and not re-establish the church. He even said that he had fought a good fight and kept the faith.
What apostasy are you referring to? Who said that the church should be re-establish?
Thanks
LASTINGLIGHT
Member
Christian always want to quote Paul. I don't know why they call themselves followers of Jesus.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Mormons believe that Paul was an Apostle of Christ. That's why we quote him.
Was is that so? Having a peak experience such as is described by Joseph Smith is not uncommon at all. I have had an experience I can describe in nearly identical terms. However, how I understood the experience is ultimately my own interpretation, just as his was his own interpretation. Sure, even if "it happened", how it is understood, how it is interpreted is not an absolute. The understanding of my own experiences continue to grow and change as my understanding of myself does. So, perspective has total relevance, not no relevance.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Would you be so kind as to do so?
LASTINGLIGHT
Member
I understand that, but could you quote Jesus to make the same point?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
On that particular point, no.
It is very personal, but I've shared it online before. To just quote myself, I'll paste it here so as not to have to retype everything. Tell me if this doesn't sound similar to JS. I'll explain more in detail after just sharing this:
I fully believe you experienced that. I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?
Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.
I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love. I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life.
Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.
I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love. I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life.
Ok, so what you see above corresponds with JS's experience, which also corresponds with a lot of people's peak experiences like this. These are not uncommon. Allow me to do a side by side comparison of what he said, with what I experienced:
JS: " immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction."
Me: I had slipped into the state of deep sleep where I became consciously aware my life was slipping away. I saw blackness everywhere crushing down on me, snuffing out my very existence. I KNEW I was going to die, that everything was being lost and I would become no more. Fear seized me so I could not move or speak or wake myself from this terror.
JS: "But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me."
Me: In that moment of absolute terror that blackness was swallowing my life into death, I put forth everything within in in one last hope and cried out with everything within me, "God help me!". At the instant, everything ceased. There was infinite White Light that came down in an instant from above and filled every space to where I had no other awareness save for that which enveloped me in Infinite Love, Infinite Compassion, Infinite Peace, Infinite Awareness in but a sliver of an infinity beyond itself, which was infinite in itself. Time did not exist.
JS: "It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
Me: There was nothing but this Infinite Love, and Infinite Mind looking down upon me, as it were, with such Grace that it was greater than the power of the whole universe, yet held in Infinite Compassion. I heard my name spoken in a pure voice in a single word to my mind, then saw my life from my childhood on, with the knowledge that this Infinite Power, this Infinite Being was always there, and I with it despite my own unawareness.
Me: I had slipped into the state of deep sleep where I became consciously aware my life was slipping away. I saw blackness everywhere crushing down on me, snuffing out my very existence. I KNEW I was going to die, that everything was being lost and I would become no more. Fear seized me so I could not move or speak or wake myself from this terror.
JS: "But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction- not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being- just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me."
Me: In that moment of absolute terror that blackness was swallowing my life into death, I put forth everything within in in one last hope and cried out with everything within me, "God help me!". At the instant, everything ceased. There was infinite White Light that came down in an instant from above and filled every space to where I had no other awareness save for that which enveloped me in Infinite Love, Infinite Compassion, Infinite Peace, Infinite Awareness in but a sliver of an infinity beyond itself, which was infinite in itself. Time did not exist.
JS: "It not sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said , pointing to the other-This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"
Me: There was nothing but this Infinite Love, and Infinite Mind looking down upon me, as it were, with such Grace that it was greater than the power of the whole universe, yet held in Infinite Compassion. I heard my name spoken in a pure voice in a single word to my mind, then saw my life from my childhood on, with the knowledge that this Infinite Power, this Infinite Being was always there, and I with it despite my own unawareness.
So, now that we have established that I too have had what is pretty parallel to the description given by Joseph Smith, up to the point he goes off into a theological quibble with the established religions of his day and believes he is called to start of new religion, you can see that the experience is the same, but how these are understood are matters of the person's individual interpretations. I will happily go down that road of discussion with you. These sorts of experiences are not uncommon. They are very similar. But how people interpret them, what they do with them, will differ of course.
But be assured, my experience happened as described by me, and that description does not begin to come close to truly describing what is beyond description. And, as a mystic now today, I find my home back in the arms of this every time in meditation, there is Knowledge there to be had, but I do not interpret this to go start a new religion. I look forward to your thoughts, and I share them with you because you impress me as a thoughtful person, otherwise I wouldn't.
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Katzpur: thank you for your time in answering my question. Do LDS folk also believe in any prophets between Peter and JS? Do you class Paul as a prophet?
Hong Xiuquan
Member
Yes Thanda, you raise a good point here. But I think that it was a wise thing that the Pharisees did test Jesus. What if he was a fraud....or if he wasn't actually God?They were not willing to just accept what people said with the flick of a hat. However, after listening to what Jesus said, a few of them did convert.
Hong Xiuquan
Member
I believe all the churches in existence at the time of JS were true churches, as long as the members were: 1. teaching that there is no salvation outside the blood of Christ and that acceptance of the sacrifice is needed for salvation. 2.That the members were also repentant and had asked for God's forgiveness, and 3.That the members were showing signs that there has been a heart change through actions (as mentioned in James).
Thanda
Well-Known Member
The wise thing to do is not to be quick to accuse people of things. Rather ask God for wisdom to what is true.
Btw, many people have also converted after listening to Joseph Smith.
Thanda
Well-Known Member
When God spoke of true churches he was not speaking of individuals - he was speaking of organisations. So it is irrelevant whether in some of the had repented and asked God for forgiveness.
God's desire is that man can become like him. As Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect". So two things are important to consider:
- To become like God we must know his true character: "For this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom though hast sent" John 17:3
- We must know his commandments: "If ye love me keep my commandments" John 14:15
- We must have the ordinances of the gospel done: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
- The person doing the ordinances must have authority from God: "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt 18:18 (Note this was not said to all Jesus disciples - this was only addressing the twelve).
- As the God is one God so his true church is one church: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" Eph. 4:5 Also Note Corinthians 1:10-13
Clearly these requirements speak to the fact that gods church cannot be divided up among denominations. It also speaks to the fact that there is more to the plan of salvation than simply accepting Jesus sacrifice. We are not just to repent - we are expected to become like God. So we need to have the correct knowledge of God.
Jesus told us to pray the God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Do you suppose people are divided into denominations in heaven? I do not think so. And therefore I do not think it is God's will that we should be divided on earth.
To Joseph Smith and the Church God said "If ye are not one ye are not mine"