Joseph Smith's First Vision

[Hong Xiuquan]

Muffled: " I believe no such new gospel is to be found in the vision."

Yes...it is true that the new gospel was not delivered via the vision we are discussing but the book of Mormon is another gospel of JC according to Mormons. Is this not correct? (Said politely).

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Because I really don't have much time to post today, I'm going to give you a link to another post in which I answered this question for someone else. I hope that will do for now.

Thank you Katzpur. I went to read that and it is a very clear explanation of the LDS doctrine of salvation.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

When I say there are and always have been true Christians alive, I am referring to people who look to Jesus Christ for salvation, who consider him to be the Only Begotten Son of God, and who do their best to live their lives as Christ told us to. These individuals, according to Mormon belief, are "true Christians" in every sense of the world. A prophet and an apostle, on the other hand, is someone who holds the authority given by Jesus Christ to direct Christ's Church here on earth. It's someone He has authorized by the Lord to speak on His behalf in matters that pertain to the Church as a whole. Mormons believe that the reason so many different Christian denominations have arisen is that there were no more prophets and apostles left on earth to receive revelation from the Lord. People interpreted the Bible as best they could, but it was not always done so correctly, and the priesthood authority held by the original apostles was simply non-existent. We believe that once Jesus Christ and His appointed apostles were all gone, men changed His Church in so many ways (both doctrinally and organizationally) that the only way it could be re-established was if Christ himself were to be involved. And we believe that with Joseph Smith's First Vision, the events which were needed to re-establish Christ's original Church started to take place.

Hi Katzpur. I suppose, I need to ask your for another definiton here. What is the meaning of "prophet" to LDS folk? And do you believe there were any prophets between the Bible period and JS? Will there be more prophets according to LDS teaching? I believe in prophets .....many.....one such modern one I enjoy reading about is William Branham from the States.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

This was not Smiths first vision. He often told fortunes and the location of treasures by putting his "seer stone" in his hat and peering into it.

Yes....I know that can actually be debated. However, according to the official position position based on Joseph 1 and 2 and The History of the Church, it is the first vision. If I debate with Katzpur about all the visions and which one is correct, then we will be here until the cows come home. We have to start the discussion somewhere. I hope you see my logic behind this.

 

[Katzpur]

This was not Smiths first vision. He often told fortunes and the location of treasures by putting his "seer stone" in his hat and peering into it.

Actually, you're a bit confused. You've got several examples mixed up with each other.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur. I suppose, I need to ask your for another definiton here. What is the meaning of "prophet" to LDS folk? And do you believe there were any prophets between the Bible period and JS? Will there be more prophets according to LDS teaching? I believe in prophets .....many.....one such modern one I enjoy reading about is William Branham from the States.

I suppose that the word "prophet" could have different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. Typically, though, we would think of a prophet as being an individual chosen by God through whom He speaks to His Church as a whole. While we believe that Jesus Christ chose Joseph Smith to be the prophet through whom He would reestablish His Church in these latter days, we also believe that His Church could not survive in the world unless it was continuously led through a living prophet. So, in answer to your question, we believe that every man who has been the President of our Church since Joseph Smith as also been a prophet. In other words, between 1820 and 2015, there have been sixteen prophets. Today, we believe that Thomas S. Monson is a living prophet. For Joseph Smith, being a prophet involved restoring many biblical truths that had been lost over the centuries. That was true to some extent with Brigham Young, who immediately followed Joseph Smith. Generally speaking, though, we don't think of our prophets as revealing new information from God (although they would clearly be in a position to be able to do so if God wanted to use them in this capacity). Today, an LDS prophet's role is primarily to ensure that the doctrines which are taught are correctly understood and that they do not change over time, ultimately ceasing to be Christ's doctrines. He is the leader of our Church today, and we believe his position to be identical to Peter's, immediately after Christ's death.

 

[InChrist]

I believe that I see no different gospel in the vision. Are you seeing it with mirrors or just inagining it?

How much do you know about Mormonism? I think the fact that Joseph was informed during his spiritual vision that the local churches were ALL apostate and that he would be the one used to bring a restoration of the church and gospel to the earth is a huge indicator that he was being used to bring along another false gospel and religion because the scriptures are clear that the biblical faith was once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). This is much more than pointing out faults of denominations, it is a complete attack on the gospel and faith which was given by Jesus and the apostles, recorded in the scriptures, passed down and lived out throughout generations of faithful believers over the centuries. A pattern of attack to undermine the truth which has been repeated numerous times and in numerous ways.. .Mormonism and The Pattern of all False Religions

 

[InChrist]

Hi Katzpur. I suppose, I need to ask your for another definiton here. What is the meaning of "prophet" to LDS folk? And do you believe there were any prophets between the Bible period and JS? Will there be more prophets according to LDS teaching? I believe in prophets .....many.....one such modern one I enjoy reading about is William Branham from the States.

How much do you know about William Branham? I believe he was heavily influenced by the occult and perpetuated many heretical teachings.
William Branham and His Influence | thebereancall.org

 

[Yoshua]

When I say there are and always have been true Christians alive, I am referring to people who look to Jesus Christ for salvation, who consider him to be the Only Begotten Son of God, and who do their best to live their lives as Christ told us to. These individuals, according to Mormon belief, are "true Christians" in every sense of the world. A prophet and an apostle, on the other hand, is someone who holds the authority given by Jesus Christ to direct Christ's Church here on earth. It's someone He has authorized by the Lord to speak on His behalf in matters that pertain to the Church as a whole. Mormons believe that the reason so many different Christian denominations have arisen is that there were no more prophets and apostles left on earth to receive revelation from the Lord. People interpreted the Bible as best they could, but it was not always done so correctly, and the priesthood authority held by the original apostles was simply non-existent. We believe that once Jesus Christ and His appointed apostles were all gone, men changed His Church in so many ways (both doctrinally and organizationally) that the only way it could be re-established was if Christ himself were to be involved. And we believe that with Joseph Smith's First Vision, the events which were needed to re-establish Christ's original Church started to take place.

Hi Katzpur,

May I know if you check by yourself that there should be a priesthood authority in the future? Is there a supporting verse for this?

Why should Christ church be re-establish? Did Jesus Christ tell us that His church should be re-establish in the future?

Is it written in the Scripture?

Thanks

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

How much do you know about William Branham? I believe he was heavily influenced by the occult and perpetuated many heretical teachings.
William Branham and His Influence | thebereancall.org

I'll accept that some people will believe that. Have you read the most famous book titled "William Branham: A man sent from God" by Gordon Lindsay. After reading it many times I really get a sense that he really loved God deeply. I've also read "Adventures in God' by John G. Lake quite a few times. He also had a deep love for God. Here is my opinion: Both men have had a lot of opposition and there are many true Christians attacking what they did because they can't understand it. Some of the Christians attacking don't believe miracles are possible and ceased with the apostles. There is a lot of evidence for and against William Branham. I'll accept that. Some even suggest he didn't heal anyone. However, there are actual reported cases from reporters in Branham's book (above) as well as online. One interesting online story I found was of a girl who had no eyeballs in her sockets and eyeballs were given to the girl after prayer. The parents became Christians after it happened. Praise God. Branham always said that the purpose for the miracles was to bring people to Christ. The story brought tears to my eyes when I read it.

It seems like Branham "could" have gone astray in his last years, like King David did with Bathsheba. Does that mean that David didn't love God when he was younger? Do we write someone's work off if they leave God at the end? Their work at the beginning of their lives can still be valid and holy, right? I'm still doing more research into Branham's last years. I really don't like his sermon about Adam and Eve (a later teaching), and I disagree with some other sermons too. I actually contacted the online center for Voice of God Ministries, which is the Ministry that continues Branham's work. The online correspondent answered my first questions, which were mainly in regards to the Branhamism. He wasn't happy that a small minority group of Branham supporters had started their own religion and were actually worshipping Branham like a god. He said they had no connection to his ministry. In the second email to him, I asked some questions about the Eve and serpent interpretation of Branham's and the guy must have taken offence to my question as he didn't reply. I told him I wasn't attacking him..... but you have to understand that these guys are getting attacked on a daily basis. He probably just thought I was another attacker. Finding out the actual truth about someone like Branham seems to be a very difficult thing to do. However, did he teach salvation through the blood of Christ alone? Yes. If he was teaching a different type of salvation like Joseph Smith taught, then I'd agree that the Devil was involved in his ministry.

Branham did have strange experiences with God as mentioned in the book above. I have an even stranger book by the leader of a group of Pentecostals. They really loved God but weird stuff happened. If you haven't read the book, I'd recommend it. It's called "Following the Fire" by Gerald Derstine. You can find it online. You could interpret the stuff in that book in two ways....demonic or the work of the HS. It really depends on your views as a Christian. I believe in tongues. But there are countless books out there by good Christians who believe that tongues are of the Devil.

Thank you for raising the question...it's an important one. I'll be looking for Branham in Heaven. If he's not there, then I'll know, he left God at the end. I'll leave you with the words of the correspondent though: "Branham, right to the very end was a man of God, and he was even seen praying for his wife as she lay dying."

God bless.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I like to read Joseph Smith's writings in the voice of Colonel Sanders...

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,

May I know if you check by yourself that there should be a priesthood authority in the future? Is there a supporting verse for this?

I'm not sure I understand this question, Yoshua.

Why should Christ church be re-establish? Did Jesus Christ tell us that His church should be re-establish in the future? Is it written in the Scripture?

Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

Had the prophesied apostasy not taken place, a restoration (or reestablishment) of the original Church would have been unnecessary. But since it did, a complete restoration (and not just a reformation) was essential.

 

[Katzpur]

How much do you know about Mormonism? I think the fact that Joseph was informed during his spiritual vision that the local churches were ALL apostate and that he would be the one used to bring a restoration of the church and gospel to the earth is a huge indicator that he was being used to bring along another false gospel and religion because the scriptures are clear that the biblical faith was once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).

It seems odd that you would ask someone how much he knows about Mormonism and then go on to provide him with inaccurate information. Could you please quote from Joseph Smith's history (i.e. the part about the First Vision) where he says that he was told he would be the one used to bring a restoration of the church and gospel to the earth? Good luck with that.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Actually, you're a bit confused. You've got several examples mixed up with each other.

I probably am a bit confused, but I can still look up history.

 

[Katzpur]

I probably am a bit confused, but I can still look up history.

Of course you can. You just need to realize (as I'm sure you do) that some sources of information are more reliable than others.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Of course you can. You just need to realize (as I'm sure you do) that some sources of information are more reliable than others.

Having studied the evidence, its a toss up. Ordinarily I would say the evidence is enough to convince me that JS told fortunes and used his seer stone in attempts to find treasure. There is no doubt he was a treasure hunter at times. However given the repulsion that many people had of the Mormons at that time renders the evidence suspect. A strange fact about the court bill, JS was listed as "the glass looker" while none of the others mentioned have any sort of discription at all. Odd.

 

[Yoshua]

I'm not sure I understand this question, Yoshua.

What I mean is: Is there a prophecy or scripture that there will be a priesthood authority in the future?

Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

Had the prophesied apostasy not taken place, a restoration (or reestablishment) of the original Church would have been unnecessary. But since it did, a complete restoration (and not just a reformation) was essential.

Hi Katzpur,

Acts 20:29
28. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31. "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32. "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Let us check the whole context of the passage you have given. Paul warned the elders of the church to be on guard from the false teachings that may draw away the disciples. In the succeeding verses, there is no mention of the the re-establishment of the church? Where is it?

2 Thessalonians 2
Man of Lawlessness
1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him,
2. that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13. But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17. comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

In v.3, Paul warned them “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” He even said that the man of lawlessness was revealed. They know who is it. In v.4, he describes the characteristic of the son of destruction and those will display signs and wonders as activity of Satan (v.9). For those who did not accept the gospel or the word of truth, God will send a delusion for them and give them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions. So what they will do? Paul address the solution from this lawlessness, he said “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” Where is the command of re-establishment of the church?

Perversion of the Gospel (Gal.1:6-10)
6. I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7. which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
10. For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

This is still a warning at v.8 to be aware from the gospel contrary to what Paul had preached them. There is no command of re-establishment of the church.
2 Tim.4:1-8
Preach the Word"
1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.
5. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
6. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
7. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8. in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Paul advised them to be ready, preach the word and be sober in all things. He encouraged them to fulfill the ministry and not re-establish the church. He even said that he had fought a good fight and kept the faith.

What apostasy are you referring to? Who said that the church should be re-establish?

Thanks

 

[Thanda]

The thing that arouses my suspicion is the fact that Joseph was involved in spiritism.

Can't you see that you sound exactly like the Pharisees? Did they not accuse Jesus of being in cooperation with Satan? Did Jesus not speak to Moses and Elijah who had apparently died a long time ago? Do you think Jesus was a spiriticist?

 

[Thanda]

This was not Smiths first vision. He often told fortunes and the location of treasures by putting his "seer stone" in his hat and peering into it.

Which other visions did Joseph Smith have before he was 14?

 

[Thanda]

Muffled: " I believe no such new gospel is to be found in the vision."

Yes...it is true that the new gospel was not delivered via the vision we are discussing but the book of Mormon is another gospel of JC according to Mormons. Is this not correct? (Said politely).

No. It is another testament or witness. In other words it purports to show the record of other people who believed in Jesus Christ and proves there by that Jesus is not the God of the people in Israel only but he is God of the whole world.