Judaism and Eden and Eve

[Colt]

Why isn't Dennis Prager a Christian?

 

[metis]

I took a 3-evening seminar through a Christian theologian [Presbyterian] who concluded Jesus could not now be the messiah as not all the requirements have been fulfilled. However, he does believe it's likely that Jesus will be the messiah with his second coming.

 

[Spice]

Notice that Judaism has been consistently rejecting Jesus for 2000 years while it was the Roman’s who adopted him. Ironically, The reasons that they reject Jesus today are still the same as the Jews of the Gospels who rejected him then!

That's one view established from Paul's "mission." But Jesus, a devout Jew, never claimed to be the expected, promised Messiah of the Hebrew people. The Messiah is to bring peace and he specifically said “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Mt 10:34) And in fact, as per prophecy, he did not initiate the Messianic Age of peace; life and times became much more violent and destructive.

The majority of the followers of Judaism saw he was a Rabbi preaching caution, calm, and to prepare endurance for troubled days ahead. . .which did occur. They did not reject the "real" Jesus. They rejected the falsehood said of him.

Rome did not adopt Jesus. What was adopted was a mix of Judaism with Paganism under the direction of Paul. What I can be grateful for in Paul is his persistent to spread whatever necessary (1 Cor. 9) in order to keep the name of Jesus alive and active in our minds. I have no doubt many have grown closer to God because of him. He indeed helped Peter build the church of Jesus's message. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion and sharing of theological thought now.

 

[Colt]

That's one view established from Paul's "mission." But Jesus, a devout Jew, never claimed to be the expected, promised Messiah of the Hebrew people. The Messiah is to bring peace and he specifically said “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Mt 10:34) And in fact, as per prophecy, he did not initiate the Messianic Age of peace; life and times became much more violent and destructive.

The majority of the followers of Judaism saw he was a Rabbi preaching caution, calm, and to prepare endurance for troubled days ahead. . .which did occur. They did not reject the "real" Jesus. They rejected the falsehood said of him.

Rome did not adopt Jesus. What was adopted was a mix of Judaism with Paganism under the direction of Paul. What I can be grateful for in Paul is his persistent to spread whatever necessary (1 Cor. 9) in order to keep the name of Jesus alive and active in our minds. I have no doubt many have grown closer to God because of him. He indeed helped Peter build the church of Jesus's message. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion and sharing of theological thought now.

Thats your opinion but one has to throw out quite a lot of the NT to arrive at it.

 

[Anthony H Miller]

For the Jewish adherents
Was Eve a real person? Was she actually unaware of morality prior to eating the apple? And if so, how could she sin prior to having an understanding of sin?

Strange you would think it was an apple she ate.

 

[Spice]

Thats your opinion but one has to throw out quite a lot of the NT to arrive at it.

If you're speaking of Paul's part, written by him or a colleague, indeed you do. About 80%. That kind of makes it hard to believe in as a Christian scripture, doesn't it?

 

[Colt]

If you're speaking of Paul's part, written by him or a colleague, indeed you do. About 80%. That kind of makes it hard to believe in as a Christian scripture, doesn't it?

Im speaking about the Gospels where Jesus is quoted as well the harassment by the Jews, trial, crucifixion and return from the death of his body.

 

[Spice]

Im speaking about the Gospels where Jesus is quoted as well the harassment by the Jews, trial, crucifixion and return from the death of his body.

And that circles back to my original point in this discussion -- it wasn't "the Jews" that harassed and crucified Jesus. It was the Jewish, political leadership of the Sanhedrin, not all of the council, namely Caiaphas and a few supporters, that condemned him for blasphemy and sent him to Pilate to be dealt with.

 

[Colt]

And that circles back to my original point in this discussion -- it wasn't "the Jews" that harassed and crucified Jesus. It was the Jewish, political leadership of the Sanhedrin, not all of the council, namely Caiaphas and a few supporters, that condemned him for blasphemy and sent him to Pilate to be dealt with.

You said.....""blame it on the Jews" theory was the safest way in the political climate of the Jewish Wars to speak of who instigated the arrest and crucifixion. "

Now you acknowledge that it was the "Jewish political leadership". Thats always been a matter of fact! What a waste of time! The followers of Jesus remained a very small sect inside Jewish society. Jesus foretold that he would be rejected by his own people. It has remained that way.

The kingdom that Jesus preached and established already was/is spiritual. The Romans didnt have an issue with that, the theology of Judaism does!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you think that what he did/say threatened the Roman sovereignty?

I think he was a troublemaker. He literally went into the Temple during a time when gazillions of pilgrims were flooding Jerusalem and the Romans were struggling to ensure a peaceful holiday, and vandalized it (overturning the tables) and assaulted the priests (driving them out with a whip). That alone could have him crucified. His claim to be the King of the Jews, which is ambiguous at best, simply added fuel to the fire. No, I don't think he was a genuine threat, but I'm sure the Romans didn't see it that way.

 

[Colt]

I think he was a troublemaker. He literally went into the Temple during a time when gazillions of pilgrims were flooding Jerusalem and the Romans were struggling to ensure a peaceful holiday, and vandalized it (overturning the tables) and assaulted the priests (driving them out with a whip). That alone could have him crucified. His claim to be the King of the Jews, which is ambiguous at best, simply added fuel to the fire. No, I don't think he was a genuine threat, but I'm sure the Romans didn't see it that way.

The Temple authorities had established a lucrative commercial enterprise in the Gods house! It may as well have been Joel Olstein's mega church! Jesus was disgusted by that! He went in and rightly drove out the profiteers!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Temple authorities had established a lucrative commercial enterprise in the Gods house! It may as well have been Joel Olstein's mega church! Jesus was disgusted by that! He went in and rightly drove out the profiteers!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying and selling in a place of worship. My synagogue has a Judaica shop, where we can purchase things like shabbat candle holders, menorahs for Chanukah, tallitot, mezuzas, etc. It is an enormous CONVENIENCE.

The business that took place in the Jewish Temple was similarly providing an incredible convenience. For one, instead of driving your animal for sacrifice all the way from your remote farm to the temple, you could sell your animal before you left and use the money to purchase an animal right there in Jerusalem. Secondly, Jews from all over the Roman empire would come to Jerusalem, and needed to exchange their foreign currency for shekels. Again, an ENORMOUS convenience, and absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Some Christian churches will sell books and CDs in their lobbies. How is this any different?

The problem with Joel Osteen is that he is committing FRAUD. He is telling people that if they give money to him, that God will bless them with even greater wealth. THAT IS A LIE that is meant to increase his own personal wealth.

No one in the Temple was lying to Jews telling them that if they do business in the Temple, that God will make them rich.

 

[Spice]

You said.....""blame it on the Jews" theory was the safest way in the political climate of the Jewish Wars to speak of who instigated the arrest and crucifixion. "

Yes, it was. I also said those working underhanded were still at it. Even in the second century and beyond, it was "safer" to point the finger at the Jewish masses than at the Sanhedrin leadership in cahoots with the Romans. The Hellenists authors of the NT books certainly used this tactic -- blame it on the people. Anti-sematism flourished as fed by Scripture until someone along the way over compensated with the "protect Israel" mandate in Christianity.

It's difficult at times to sift out the politics even in a time and place that stands for separation of church and state.

 

[Dimi95]

I took a 3-evening seminar through a Christian theologian [Presbyterian] who concluded Jesus could not now be the messiah as not all the requirements have been fulfilled. However, he does believe it's likely that Jesus will be the messiah with his second coming.

I would love to see the requirments if that is possible in any way.

 

[ppp]

Strange you would think it was an apple she ate.

Are you under the impression that there is anything but a story,?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would love to see the requirments if that is possible in any way.

For example:

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4).

This did not happen. Jesus never judged between the nations, nor did he ever usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations.

 

[Colt]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying and selling in a place of worship. My synagogue has a Judaica shop, where we can purchase things like shabbat candle holders, menorahs for Chanukah, tallitot, mezuzas, etc. It is an enormous CONVENIENCE.

The business that took place in the Jewish Temple was similarly providing an incredible convenience. For one, instead of driving your animal for sacrifice all the way from your remote farm to the temple, you could sell your animal before you left and use the money to purchase an animal right there in Jerusalem. Secondly, Jews from all over the Roman empire would come to Jerusalem, and needed to exchange their foreign currency for shekels. Again, an ENORMOUS convenience, and absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Some Christian churches will sell books and CDs in their lobbies. How is this any different?

The problem with Joel Osteen is that he is committing FRAUD. He is telling people that if they give money to him, that God will bless them with even greater wealth. THAT IS A LIE that is meant to increase his own personal wealth.

No one in the Temple was lying to Jews telling them that if they do business in the Temple, that God will make them rich.

Oh, your justification for killing Jesus was that the Temple simply had a little gift shop where they sold scented candles, key chains and bumper stickers! Mean old Jesus went in there an vandalized the place!

The situation was that poor pilgrims were exploited by money changers who charged exorbitant rates inside the Temple courts in order to purchase “acceptable” sacrificial animals.

 

[Colt]

Yes, it was. I also said those working underhanded were still at it. Even in the second century and beyond, it was "safer" to point the finger at the Jewish masses than at the Sanhedrin leadership in cahoots with the Romans. The Hellenists authors of the NT books certainly used this tactic -- blame it on the people. Anti-sematism flourished as fed by Scripture until someone along the way over compensated with the "protect Israel" mandate in Christianity.

It's difficult at times to sift out the politics even in a time and place that stands for separation of church and state.

I don’t see “the Jewish people” being blamed in the Gospels. The powerful representatives of the institution of Judaism were at odds with the teachings of Jesus, his theology and references to his identity. They had the Roman’s kill him because they weren’t allowed to execute him themselves. But it is an undeniable fact that 99% of Judaism and Jews have consistently rejected Jesus to this day.

 

[metis]

I would love to see the requirments if that is possible in any way.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

 

[Colt]

Micah 3

…..
9Now hear this,
You heads of the house of Jacob
And rulers of the house of Israel,
Who abhor justice
And [e]pervert all equity,
10Who build up Zion with bloodshed
And Jerusalem with iniquity:
11Her heads judge for a bribe,
Her priests teach for pay,
And her prophets divine for [f]money.
Yet they lean on the Lord, and say,
“Is not the Lord among us?
No harm can come upon us.”
12Therefore because of you
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins

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