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Judaism and Supplemental Material

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But as I mentioned already, the person who did the video, Dr. James Justin Sledge, is Jewish and belong to the Reconstructionist movement. Therefore, I don't know if he speaks Hebrew or Canaanite or any other ancient languages. However, he appears to know what he is talking about in that regard.

Being Jewish doesn't guarentee that someone knows what they are talking about. The Jewish approach is to check sources. Especially now a days anyone can just make something up and claim it in the name of something w/o having concrete sources to explain how they got from point A to point Z. That is exactly why I do videos showing the actual source in the original language it came from, and if possible showing the actual document itself.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
However, he did say that there was a synchronistic use of such bowls and drawings throughout the entire region, including Palestine. Therefore, is that true or false?

True for the Canaanite period BUT as I mentioned in the video I did on the topic of what is a Canaanite source vs. an Israeli/Jewish source. One has to know what makes some Canaanite vs. something that is Israeli/Jewish. Especially, when dealing with what known Torah based sources state. This distinction is often made more clear in books and articles on the topic here in Israel, in Hebrew, than it is in English articles and books on the topic.

Plus, he provided these links with that video: A Semi-Comprehensive Understanding of Demons (sefaria.org) and Throwing Sheid (sefaria.org) Is that a bad thing?

Again, the problem is suggesting to someone to look at a link isn't enough. If someone wants to make the point they have to teach you the process of how the Talmud was constructed and how it is correctly understood, as i mentioned previously. If someone sends to a part of the Talmud w/o explaining to you what you are reading you are bound to come to wrong conclusions. One of the reasons is that Talmud is written in a type of code the requires it to read from the Mishnah first then to the Gemara. It further requires to know who exactly stated something, who that person was, and when they stated it in comparison to the other views. Also, one would have to know if what they are reading is halakha or aggada. There are numerous places where reading something English in the Talmud w/o instruction will get you confused.

Lastly, there are some versions of the Talmud, from Europe, which were edited by Christian censors because of content they didn't like during the time that Jews in Europe were under Christian governmental control. So in those texts there were times where things had to even more coded.

Thus, a Jew with a background in Hebrew/Aramaic reading the Sefaria article you posted can come to a completely different conclusion than someone who does not have that background.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Thus, a Jew with a background in Hebrew/Aramaic reading the Sefaria article you posted can come to a completely different conclusion than someone who does not have that background.

So, what conclusion did you come to from reading the Sefaria articles? Also, I wanted to note that it appears that those articles have the English translations of the original text language, however, I did not take the time to read the English translations.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So, what conclusion did you come to from reading the Sefaria articles? Also, I wanted to note that it appears that those articles have the English translations of the original text language, however, I did not take the time to read the English translations.

I came to three conclusions:
  1. In order to get a better picture of what was discussed one would need to first start at the Mishnah and not in the middle of a Gemara that may not be understood w/o the basis of the Mishnah.
    • Proof of this can be found in the fact that the Hebrew/Aramaic doesn't use a word that can directly connected to the English word concept of "demon."
  2. I see nowhere where something halakha is brought up to make me think what is discused is definately something that has independent thought, action, and or a physical form.
    • I.e. I don't see anything here that supports free will and a physical form what they are discussing.
  3. I also see that the English translation makes some statements in bold, what they are attempting to say is direct translation, and the non-bold as commentary.
    • This also brings back the point that the Rambam makes that the rabbis of the Talmud were often trying to make bigger points about other topics and were just as able to use PaRDeS in their writings as the Tanakh.
Thus, after reading this I would not consider pulling out quotes from the Gemara as relevent. Instead, I would read the entire Mishnah then the Gemara and go from there. Lastly, this proves my point that most of what is here are statements made by particular rabbis are they are not being made out as halakha or required perspectives for all Torath Mosheh Jews.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ehav4Ever wrote: [*]He doesn't explain what the Mishnah first states prior to the Gemara. This would prove that he actually knows the subject matter that what he is quoting comes from.

Is that a bad thing?

Yes. It is not the way one understands what is in the Talmud. The Mishnah came first and the topics in the Gemara are structured following the Mishnah. There is a reason for this. Thus, to jump in the middle of Gemara w/o any context to how the topic starts in not at all how the Talmud is studied or correctly understood.

For example, the sefaria site you posted. It has the English with bold and non-bold sentences. Did you cosnider why that is? Obviously the bold is to show what is a direct translation and the non-bold is a type of commentary. Yet, did you question where they got the information from the non-bold if the bold does not include those statement? Did you consider where they go the definiton of their words from? In fact, did you consider who is Zohar Wittenberg and why his choice of segments of his translation is reliable? Important things to consider before one makes conclusions. ;)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So, then what is the sweeping statement of what all rabbis mentioned in the Talmud held by? Could you show me where he does that?

Israelite Demonology Video
  1. Starting at 2:59 to 3:17. His claim that ancient Israelis were Canaanites is not a correct term. There is no ancient source that claims that "Israel are Canaanites." This starts off the problem since the Egyptian stela he presents does not make that claim at all.
  2. His 10:31 to 10:33 which he bases on what he stated in10:08 to is made with no support as to prove the author’s intent in the direction he gave. Israelite writers muting something – he provides no proof that they were muting something. He further provides no linguistic proof for his statement afterwards of a cultural exchange in this area.
There are some other areas, again in this video he uses a lot of Christian created imagery to explain things that have no connection to the imagery that European Christians created.

Further to your question in the Talmudic Demonology video.

  1. At 10:34 he presents certain depictions that were found on pottery. The pictures are not in the Talmud and the pottery has no proven connection to the rabbis mentioned in the Talmud or even to the Jewish community. Thus, he provides no evidence to support his use of these pictures to the topic.
  2. One of the things I do find interesting, in comparison to you earlier question, he himself states that the Mishnah is mostly void of a conversation about (שדים). Which supports what I have been saying the Mishnah contains the Oral Torah and yet it has only one reference even close to the topic. Also, the Jerusalem Talmud is mostly devoid of this topic too as he himself states at 12:02 to 12:33. Yet, he doesn’t detail what statements are actually made here. I.e. is it a matter of interest or is the difference the location. I.e. (שדים) are not a problem in Israel because of the location, the people in the location, or because what is considered a (שד) is not relevant because of the practices of the Torah done there. Again, is this the Talmud or particular individuals who are “quoted” in the Talmud? I know the answer to this but someone who is not having this information explored with them may not understand it based on this video.
  3. At 5:50 to 06:00 he makes a claim w/o evidence for a statement about why the Mishnah was claimed to be Oral Torah and what “the rabbis” intent was for their claim.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Well, I really don't know what that means

The following link may help you understand what I mean. It takes one page of the Talmud and allows you to put your mouse over the different sections of it. There is then an explaination of each part.

A Page of Talmud

This site breaks down in short what part of the page is the Mishnah and part is the Gemara. Reading of the Talmud starts with the Mishnah which then the Gemara discusses along with other topics that may not be directly connected to the Mishnah.

Talmud
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But having the written Hebrew on your videos, but then reading them in English would produce the same effect for people who may have no connection to the culture that produced the idea.

Not quite because at the end of the day, I am not trying convince someone who is not going to go out and research for themselves. I.e. if someone really wants to know what the text says they learn what the text actually says, that is the way that Jews do it. Because of the fact that the topic has less relevance to the non-Jewish world in effect I mostly talking to fellow Jews who at some point may be inspired to go out and learn the actual source and not rely on my translation. A Jew could literally turn off the sound of me talking, read the text on the screen, and determine if the conclusions I make about it are correct.

Further, I often go through and explain where my translation comes form and the possibilities of how it can be understand - and others who support what I stated. I.e. I try to show how I got from A to Z and I provide the information about those who made the same statements.

This is one of the reasons I did a video about how someone can teach themselves Hebrew and Aramaic.

Sounds to me that having a video version for people who may have no connection to the culture that produced the idea and having a version for Jews and Noachides for whom the Hebrew is important and are comfortable with learning directly from a source would be helpful.

For Jews, it is not at all. Being Jewish is national and communal. It is not a culture where people go it alone and do it virtually - which is what one does by relying on videos to get information. There is actually a mitzvah that Jews are required to learn "directly" from a knowledgable Jewish leader (such as a rabbi, rebbe, mori, etc.) and physically be a part of a community. This mitzvah is mentioned numerous times in the Torah.

Concerning a Jew who has no connection, that is the work of Jews who do have a connection. I.e. there are numerous Jewish organzations that have been founded to reconnect Jews to actual physical communities to restore the culture of their ancestors to them.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member

What he means is that when you stated, "Yeah due to societal pressure rather and fear of being the odd one out in my social group you misunderstood." If this is what you are concerned with then being Jewish could be a problem for you and you may gain nothing from it since being Jewish that would cause you have to seperate yourself from such a social group.

Again, you did ask for Reform Movement assistance. I don't know how anyone on this forum can help you with this based on where you live. Your best bet would be probably to contact the Reform Movement in your home country.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Again, you did ask for Reform Movement assistance. I don't know how anyone on this forum can help you with this based on where you live. Your best bet would be probably to contact the Reform Movement in your home country.
The only WUPJ affiliated synagogue in the area is in Stockholm, which is apparently inconvenient. Still, I suspect the problem lies elsewhere.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I am looking to make an apple pie. I don't want anyone to smell it cooking and I don't want to put apples in it. There are no bakers in my area to help me but I won't go where they are. It is important that I make this pie right now but I don't have my own oven and I don't want anyone to know that I'm making or made the pie.
 

Swede01

Member
The only WUPJ affiliated synagogue in the area is in Stockholm, which is apparently inconvenient. Still, I suspect the problem lies elsewhere.
No that is the only big problem and the other problems are small things. I just prefer being anonymous and not be judged by other swedes in my hometown
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
No that is the only big problem and the other problems are small things. I just prefer being anonymous and not be judged by other swedes in my hometown
I can't help but be reminded of the story in Midrash Kohelet Rabbah 7:8:
"A Persian came before Rav (one of the greatest sages in the early Talmudic era) and said: "Teach me Torah (i.e., convert me)!" Rav agreed and began with the basics. He pointed at the letter Alef (first letter in the Hebrew alphabet) and said: "Say Alef." The Persian retorted: "Who says that this is an Alef?"
Rav continued and pointed at the letter Bet (second letter) and said: "Say Bet." Again the Persian said: "Who said that this a Bet?"
Rav got angry and kicked him out.
The Persian went to Shmuel (another of the greatest sages of the era) and said: "Teach me Torah!" Shmuel agreed and said: "Say Alef." The Persian retorted: "Who said that this is an Alef?" Shmuel continued. "Say Bet." Again the Persian said: "Who said that this is a Bet?"
Shmuel pulled the Persian's ear. The Persian cried: "My ear, my ear!" Shmuel responded: "Who says that this is your ear?" Flabbergasted, the Persian said: "Everyone knows that this is my ear!"
Shmuel smiled and said: "In the same manner that everyone knows that this is your ear, so everyone knows that this is an Alef and this is a Bet."
Humbled, the Persian followed Shmuel's teaching method.

Look, @Swede01, converting to Judaism isn't like dyeing your hair green. It's a very serious matter. To undertake the conversion process, you must be willing to undertake some drastic changes in your life. And yes, that means that society might look at you differently. If you can't accept that, then you simply will not be able to convert, just like the Persian who had to accept some core things about Judaism, otherwise he would not have been to convert. In Judaism, these core things include leaving old communities and joining Jewish ones. If that's not good for you, then not only will things not work out, but I doubt any rabbi of any denomination would be willing to convert you.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
No that is the only big problem and the other problems are small things. I just prefer being anonymous and not be judged by other swedes in my hometown

If that is the sitaution there is nothing any of us on this forum to can do. We are all from different countries and on-line forums are not the best places to get answers on how to become Jewish.

If being Jewish is what you really desire the only option available to you is moving to an area with a Jewish community. If being Jewish is what you really desire it may even mean being Jewish first and not Swedish "culturally." The reason is because in reality really being Jewish is not a religion that you show up, make an oath, and it doesn't matter if you are never seen again. As has been pointed being Jewish is a national and communal commitment. This is the Jewish way of doing things and it has been this way for thousands of years.

Just as an example. I knew a girl in NYC who grew up as a secular Muslim in a secular household. Due to a Hasidic performer she became interesting in Judaism. She got books and started secretly learning w/o telling her family. One day her father, who was a secular Muslim, found her books on Judaism and he flipped out on her. The arguement escalated to the point where she had to move out. She eventually made her way to a completely Jewish Hasidic neighborhood and she successfully converted there and no longer can go home to visit her father because of his reaction.

There is a guy here in Israel who converted and due to his previous family and communal structure he can only visit his family at night and in secret.

I once met a guy here in Jerusalem who grew up and was married in an American Christian family. He had a wife and 3 or 4 kids. He worked as an architech for a Christian company that designed churches. At some point he became aware of Judaism and decided that he wanted to practice as much of it as he could. When he expressed this to his wife you warned him, "You better do that Jewish stuff in the closet!" That is exactly what he did. He did Jewish stuff in the closet of his home. He would take it all off when he left the closet. That went on for a while until one day he forgot to take the kippa off and he went to work. Of course him showing up to his job with a kippa on raised some alarm bells and eventually he lost his job. When his wife find out she divorced him. He told me that the hardest part about the whole thing was when his only son told him to his face, "I don't want to see you again. You are not my dad. My father is dead." When he told me this story it really hit me to my heart YET he said after that he moved to Israel and began seeking an Orthodox conversation. He was learning at a Yeshivah and he was experiencing the greatest joy of his life even with the fact that he lost everything to get that joy.

Lastly, about 100 years ago there was a Catholic priest in Uganda who sat down one day decided to really study his bible. Yet, after some intense study he came to the conclusion that what he was reading was Jewish and foreign to what he was doing as a Catholic. So, he met with his family and had a discussion with them. That discussion led to him and his sons circumcising themselves and trying to live as Jewish as they could. Over the last 100 years he started getting other Ugandans on board with what he was doing until they formed their own Jewish community. During the last 100 years they faced a lot of animostiy from their families, their neighbors, and they survived the Idi Amin regime, until the point when they were able to convert in the last 20 to 30 years.

There is nothing any of us on this forum to can do. We are all from different countries and on-line forums are not the best places to get answers on how to become Jewish. You essentially don't have any options outside of approaching the Jewish community Sweden. Sorry but that is the reality.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Lastly, about 100 years ago there was a Catholic priest in Uganda who sat down one day decided to really study his bible. Yet, after some intense study he came to the conclusion that what he was reading was Jewish and foreign to what he was doing as a Catholic. So, he met with his family and had a discussion with them. That discussion led to him and his sons circumcising themselves and trying to live as Jewish as they could. Over the last 100 years he started getting other Ugandans on board with what he was doing until they formed their own Jewish community. During the last 100 years they faced a lot of animostiy from their families, their neighbors, and they survived the Idi Amin regime, until the point when they were able to convert in the last 20 to 30 years.
Nit-pick: Catholic Ugandan priests can get married?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Nit-pick: Catholic Ugandan priests can get married?

It appeared that back then he did. The popes used to get married back in the day. You also have to remember that some one of the groups that are not tightly connected to the Roman type sometimes do whatever they want.
 
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