Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[ZenMonkey]

Without getting into details I would basically agree with you. When Paul taught against 'Jewish teachings' I think it was more of a reproach as opposed to a declaration of an entirely new Religion.

Anyways, Xianity as I know it includes various Torah laws and teachings, it's a Continuation Covenant. The first time I heard a Xian speak against the OT I was surprised, I didn't really know many Xians held those views.

Agreed.

 

[Tarheeler]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.

Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.

I couldn't care less if he was Jewish or not. If he was, he became a heretic and apostate once his beliefs left that of Jewish teaching. That he might have been born a Jew doesn't make what he taught part of Judaism.

I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

As a Christian you're free to believe whatever you wish.
But it still has no bearing on us or our religion.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I couldn't care less if he was Jewish or not. If he was, he became a heretic and apostate once his beliefs left that of Jewish teaching. That he might have been born a Jew doesn't make what he taught part of Judaism.

To some people he is viewed to be what you suggested - certainly. Paul no doubt believed Jesus was the promised messiah. Many don't and that's their choice to make. Paul belonged to the Jewish faith to which he taught a progression from strict written Jewish law in favor of more spiritual laws pertaining to the human heart, which is an extension/continuation/progression of the Abrahamic religion

As a Christian you're free to believe whatever you wish.
But it still has no bearing on us or our religion.

I'm not a Christian, but I do believe Jesus was the promised messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. Go figure.

 

[Tarheeler]

To some people he is viewed to be what you suggested - certainly. Paul no doubt believed Jesus was the promised messiah. Many don't and that's their choice to make. Paul belonged to the Jewish faith to which he taught a progression from strict written Jewish law in favor of more spiritual laws pertaining to the human heart, which is an extension/continuation/progression of the Abrahamic religion

I'm not a Christian, but I do believe Jesus was the promised messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. Go figure.

Like I said, what he taught had nothing to do with Judaism. Once it departed from Jewish teaching, it became something else entirely.
The entire idea of the Christian messiah (even without the Trinity) is incompatible with Judaism.

 

[paarsurrey]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.


Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.

I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

Had Paul believed Jesus a truthful Messiah, then he would have not corrupted the teachings of Jesus?

So, no, Paul did not believe Jesus as truthful Messiah.

Regards

 

[Sleeppy]

Interpretations and practice.. Paul had Jewish practice down (perhaps moreso considering he was still sacrificing animals and going in to a Temple where the presence of God was/is said to reside).. And I'd bet about >85% of Jewish interpretation. We know historical accuracy wasn't/isn't strong even up to and after the Exodus.. Prophetical accuracy follows suit; some things are extremely vague, others written after the fact, and others keep being reserved for the future. I'd say Paul was within his rights, like every other scribe or prophet or Rabbi before him, to take some artistic license.

 

[CMike]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.


Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.


I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

1) You are Jewish if your mother is/was Jewish or you converted

2) The Jewish Messiah will have fulfilled all the messianic prophesies. Jesus didn't fulfill them

3) No Jewish Messiah will ever claim to be a divine being in any way

4) No Jewish Messiah will ever claim to have "fulfilled the law". The law was made by G-D, nothing and nobody get in between that.

5) As far as the "dark ages". Christians in the name of Christianity have tortured and murdered millions of people. Try to find Jew in the last 2,000 years whom have even come close to that.

6) Whatever christianity is it certainly has nothing to with Judaism or at the very least is a tremendous perversion of it.

 

[CMike]

To some people he is viewed to be what you suggested - certainly. Paul no doubt believed Jesus was the promised messiah. Many don't and that's their choice to make. Paul belonged to the Jewish faith to which he taught a progression from strict written Jewish law in favor of more spiritual laws pertaining to the human heart, which is an extension/continuation/progression of the Abrahamic religion





I'm not a Christian, but I do believe Jesus was the promised messiah prophesied by Jewish prophets. Go figure.

Judaism has had numerous false messiahs. I believe jesus was number 52.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Like I said, what he taught had nothing to do with Judaism. Once it departed from Jewish teaching, it became something else entirely.
The entire idea of the Christian messiah (even without the Trinity) is incompatible with Judaism.

I suggest that it is more than compatible. It's the natural progression of the faith. Many refuse to acknowledge how and why, but it's compatible just the same. Is there not more to the Jewish faith than strict written Jewish law? I know there is, but there is likewise room for growth, no? Paul teaching liberation from these strict written laws per Jesus does not make Jesus being the messiah incompatible with Judaism.


I view it a lot like looking at the glassy surface of a body of water. What you see on the surface is only skin deep. There is much more hidden underneath the surface. All I'm suggesting is that many people's honor seems to be only skin deep and religiously motivated. Jesus and Paul both suggested that God desires us to break through the skin (self will/flesh) and get to the spirit of the law instead of just obeying because we think we are required to.


It's a natural progression and not one we can force on ourselves OR on others. It's about true blue spiritual progress and not about religious demands. It's an issue of heart (spirit), and not so much about the will (flesh). Judaism seems to be more about "self will" and obedience whereas Jesus, Paul, and the apostles all taught about matters of heart (spirit).


I'd much rather prefer my son to truly love me with all his heart and honor me through himself instead of displaying a colder type of love by merely doing what he thinks I demand of him. One is pleasant and easy to be entreated. The other is burdensome and hard. Paul truly believed he was teaching progression of the Jewish faith. I do to. You don't. It's all good.

 

[CMike]

I suggest that it is more than compatible. It's the natural progression of the faith. Many refuse to acknowledge how and why, but it's compatible just the same. Is there not more to the Jewish faith than strict written Jewish law? I know there is, but there is likewise room for growth, no? Paul teaching liberation from these strict written laws per Jesus does not make Jesus being the messiah incompatible with Judaism.


I view it a lot like looking at the glassy surface of a body of water. What you see on the surface is only skin deep. There is much more hidden underneath the surface. All I'm suggesting is that many people's honor seems to be only skin deep and religiously motivated. Jesus and Paul both suggested that God desires us to break through the skin (self will/flesh) and get to the spirit of the law instead of just obeying because we think we are required to.


It's a natural progression and not one we can force on ourselves OR on others. It's about true blue spiritual progress and not about religious demands. It's an issue of heart (spirit), and not so much about the will (flesh). Judaism seems to be more about "self will" and obedience whereas Jesus, Paul, and the apostles all taught about matters of heart (spirit).


I'd much rather prefer my son to truly love me with all his heart and honor me through himself instead of displaying a colder type of love by merely doing what he thinks I demand of him. One is pleasant and easy to be entreated. The other is burdensome and hard. Paul truly believed he was teaching progression of the Jewish faith. I do to. You don't. It's all good.

Obviously you lack understanding and knowledge regarding Judaism.

I think we show a lot more by our deeds than what we mouth off.

When the Jews got the Torah, they said that we will do and we will understand. Doing came first Doing is much more important than understanding.

Doing an act of kindness is a lot more important than undertanding the reason why. The reason why is important too, but it is not as important as the actual act.

Based on christianity if Hitler "accepted jesus" right before he died he would go to heaven. That is not so in Judaism.

Hitler was accoutable for his actions, that is not so in christianity.

So yeah, if you want to do as many sins as you want and then say a few hail jesus' then that's the religion for you.

 

[Sees]

I don't see how it's all good...the ideas presented are very insulting to Judaism.

The problems of misappropriation and exclusivism are definitely featured here.

 

[outhouse]

It doesn't really matter what it was in the first century.

Yes it factually does matter. If you cannot define Judaism how can you make comments against or for it?

Jesus guided its progression through his ministry and the apostles

Ridiculous.

The Galilean Aramaic movement that was still 100% Jesus taught Judaism, died with Jesus.


The movement that grew into Christianity started in the Diaspora surrounding the martyrdom of his death, by Hellenist gentiles, and Proselytes to Judaism who would not fully convert.

Paul very well could have been a proselyte.

. He is believed to be the chosen one sent by God to liberate the Jewish people ... along with the gentiles

By who? Hellenist who hated Judaism and wanted to divorce it after the temple fell?

. What Judaism was in the first century is not the same as where this progression lead the religion itself.

Exactly and if your ignorant of Judaism, you have no business talking about things you don't know. That I can live with.

But your making unsubstantiated statements appealing to ignorance

 

[Sleeppy]

Obviously you lack understanding and knowledge regarding Judaism.

I think we show a lot more by our deeds than what we mouth off.

When the Jews got the Torah, they said that we will do and we will understand. Doing came first Doing is much more important than understanding.

Doing an act of kindness is a lot more important than undertanding the reason why. The reason why is important too, but it is not as important as the actual act.

Based on christianity if Hitler "accepted jesus" right before he died he would go to heaven. That is not so in Judaism.

Hitler was accoutable for his actions, that is not so in christianity.

So yeah, if you want to do as many sins as you want and then say a few hail jesus' then that's the religion for you.

How was Hitler held accountable? When/where is he being held accountable?

 

[outhouse]

Paul teaching liberation from these strict written laws per Jesus does not make Jesus being the messiah incompatible with Judaism.


.

Yes it does.


If Paul was not really a true Jew, and by all accounts we don't know.

he was a Hellenist in the diaspora. he was not an Israelite born and raised oppressed Jew. He was not an Aramaic jew like Jesus either.


Pauls Hellenistic teachings were NOT jesus teachings in any way.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Obviously you lack understanding and knowledge regarding Judaism.

I think we show a lot more by our deeds than what we mouth off.

When the Jews got the Torah, they said that we will do and we will understand. Doing came first Doing is much more important than understanding.

Doing an act of kindness is a lot more important than undertanding the reason why. The reason why is important too, but it is not as important as the actual act.

Based on christianity if Hitler "accepted jesus" right before he died he would go to heaven. That is not so in Judaism.

Hitler was accoutable for his actions, that is not so in christianity.

I never mentioned Christianity. I'm not a Christian. Sorry. Christianity (imo) is a shadow of what was intended by Jesus and the apostles. I'm speaking about Paul belonging to the Jewish faith and his teachings a progression of the Jewish faith. Christians are welcome to voice themselves, but this is not a Christian inquiry, nor am I representing Christian views. I'm representing my views and my understanding of Paul's faith.


I agree with your sentiments for the most part, but add to them a heart that cannot falter easily. Add to them a heart built on love for God and love for neighbor. Add to them the progression from willful obedience to involuntary obedience because of one's condition of heart (spiritual innocence). Laws are meant to curb wicked behavior from a wicked people. Spirit is meant for those who love.

 

[InChrist]

Many in the Jewish community would reject that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith after teaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus. Why would he not be considered Jewish in faith then? It would seem to be the logical conclusion. Paul had a Jewish heritage and since Paul viewed Jesus to be the promised Messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets, it only follows that Paul still belonged to the Jewish faith. Paul got black balled it seems.


Then again, I've heard theologians suggest that Paul converted to Christianity, which I think is a misrepresentation. I don't think theologians should view Paul's belief that Jesus is the messiah as a conversion from the Jewish faith. A conversion implies he converted from one religion to another, when Paul did no such thing. Paul may have converted from being an executioner of those who followed Jesus to a believer in him, but he never converted from the Jewish faith to what we know as Christianity today. He taught a progression of the Jewish faith instead of a conversion to another religion.


I may think Christianity is a shadow of its former self, but I do view Jesus to be the chosen messiah as prophesied by Jewish prophets. Judaism is Judaism and in my honest opinion I feel like Judaism got left behind in the dark ages of strict written law instead of progressing towards spiritual law's pertaining to the human heart. With that being said, do you think Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith or that he converted to what we call Christianity?

I agree that Saul/Paul saw Jesus as the Messiah in fulfillment of the promises of God through words of the Jewish prophets. I don't believe Paul converted from Judaism to Christianity, rather his life was transformed when he met the risen Messiah.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Yes it does.


If Paul was not really a true Jew, and by all accounts we don't know.

he was a Hellenist in the diaspora. he was not an Israelite born and raised oppressed Jew. He was not an Aramaic jew like Jesus either.


Pauls Hellenistic teachings were NOT jesus teachings in any way.

That's your opinion of course. What's a true Jew? What's a true Christian? What's a true Muslim? You get my point surely.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I agree that Saul/Paul saw Jesus as the Messiah in fulfillment of the promises of God through words of the Jewish prophets. I don't believe Paul converted from Judaism to Christianity, rather his life was transformed when he met the risen Messiah.

Well said.

 

[Tarheeler]

I suggest that it is more than compatible. It's the natural progression of the faith. Many refuse to acknowledge how and why, but it's compatible just the same. Is there not more to the Jewish faith than strict written Jewish law? I know there is, but there is likewise room for growth, no? Paul teaching liberation from these strict written laws per Jesus does not make Jesus being the messiah incompatible with Judaism.


I view it a lot like looking at the glassy surface of a body of water. What you see on the surface is only skin deep. There is much more hidden underneath the surface. All I'm suggesting is that many people's honor seems to be only skin deep and religiously motivated. Jesus and Paul both suggested that God desires us to break through the skin (self will/flesh) and get to the spirit of the law instead of just obeying because we think we are required to.


It's a natural progression and not one we can force on ourselves OR on others. It's about true blue spiritual progress and not about religious demands. It's an issue of heart (spirit), and not so much about the will (flesh). Judaism seems to be more about "self will" and obedience whereas Jesus, Paul, and the apostles all taught about matters of heart (spirit).


I'd much rather prefer my son to truly love me with all his heart and honor me through himself instead of displaying a colder type of love by merely doing what he thinks I demand of him. One is pleasant and easy to be entreated. The other is burdensome and hard. Paul truly believed he was teaching progression of the Jewish faith. I do to. You don't. It's all good.

What you seem to miss is that the very ideas that form the core of Christianity, from salvation to the nature of the messiah, are contrary to the teachings of Judaism. Many Christians think like you, but it doesn't change anything.

You are free to believe what you wish, but Christianity isn't compatible with Judaism.

 

[CMike]

How was Hitler held accountable? When/where is he being held accountable?

In the World To Come, after he died.