Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[ZenMonkey]

Yes it factually does matter. If you cannot define Judaism how can you make comments against or for it?





Ridiculous.

The Galilean Aramaic movement that was still 100% Jesus taught Judaism, died with Jesus.


The movement that grew into Christianity started in the Diaspora surrounding the martyrdom of his death, by Hellenist gentiles, and Proselytes to Judaism who would not fully convert.

Paul very well could have been a proselyte.




By who? Hellenist who hated Judaism and wanted to divorce it after the temple fell?




Exactly and if your ignorant of Judaism, you have no business talking about things you don't know. That I can live with.

But your making unsubstantiated statements appealing to ignorance

I'd rather like to think I'm appealing to reason. Some people it seems desire to claim a monopoly on what is to be considered 'true' Judaism. Many Christians do the same about 'true' Christians. What makes you the judge and jury? You have opinions about what constitutes one belonging to the Jewish faith. Those are your opinions. I have my own in relation to who Paul was and what Paul did for the Jewish faith.

 

[CMike]

I never mentioned Christianity. I'm not a Christian. Sorry. Christianity (imo) is a shadow of what was intended by Jesus and the apostles. I'm speaking about Paul belonging to the Jewish faith and his teachings a progression of the Jewish faith. Christians are welcome to voice themselves, but this is not a Christian inquiry, nor am I representing Christian views. I'm representing my views and my understanding of Paul's faith.


I agree with your sentiments for the most part, but add to them a heart that cannot falter easily. Add to them a heart built on love for God and love for neighbor. Add to them the progression from willful obedience to involuntary obedience because of one's condition of heart (spiritual innocence). Laws are meant to curb wicked behavior from a wicked people. Spirit is meant for those who love.

You mentioned Paul whom was a founder of Christianity, which by defintion divorces itself from Judaism and the Jewish G-D.

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself" comes from Judaism.

Love for G-D is from Judaism. That's some of the beginning lines of the Shema prayer- "You shall love G-d, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your resources".

Once again, you obviously have no understanding of Judaism.

 

[CMike]

I'd rather like to think I'm appealing to reason. Some people it seems desire to claim a monopoly on what is to be considered 'true' Judaism. Many Christians do the same about 'true' Christians. What makes you the judge and jury? You have opinions about what constitutes one belonging to the Jewish faith. Those are your opinions. I have my own in relation to who Paul was and what Paul did for the Jewish faith.

The problem is you have no clue about Judaism, and your making judgements based on no knowledge.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I don't see how it's all good...the ideas presented are very insulting to Judaism.

The problems of misappropriation and exclusivism are definitely featured here.

How so? Do those who practice Judaism not follow strict, written laws? Did Paul not teach that Jesus came to (in part) liberate them from these strict written laws? I claim Paul belonged to the Jewish faith and taught a progression of the Jewish faith - from written law to spiritual law. That would be an obvious progression. It's not insulting or rather shouldn't be.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't see how it's all good...the ideas presented are very insulting to Judaism.

The problems of misappropriation and exclusivism are definitely featured here.

It doesn't help that most Christians are very ignorant about Judaism and their only real exposure to it is the biased polemics of the NT.

 

[ZenMonkey]

You mentioned Paul whom was a founder of Christianity, which by defintion divorces itself from Judaism and the Jewish G-D.

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself" comes from Judaism.

Love for G-D is from Judaism. That's some of the beginning lines of the Shema prayer- "You shall love G-d, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your resources".

Once again, you obviously have no understanding of Judaism.

Paul progressed the Jewish faith through Jesus' teachings. I understand these laws come from the Jewish faith. That's my point. Paul belonged to the Jewish faith. Jesus did too. Both are being black balled by modern Judaism and that's fine. I'm merely suggesting that Paul taught a more progressive aspect to strict Jewish written law. He taught a change of heart, not just a change in behavior. Jesus did too. Both belonged to the Jewish faith. I'm not speaking of first century OR modern Judaism, but the progression of the Jewish faith as taught by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Tarheeler]

I don't see how it's all good...the ideas presented are very insulting to Judaism.

The problems of misappropriation and exclusivism are definitely featured here.

It's amazing how things like replacement theology, claims of deicide, and other nonsense crop their heads up every now and then.

 

[ZenMonkey]

What you seem to miss is that the very ideas that form the core of Christianity, from salvation to the nature of the messiah, are contrary to the teachings of Judaism. Many Christians think like you, but it doesn't change anything.

You are free to believe what you wish, but Christianity isn't compatible with Judaism.

Who's a true Jew? Will the real Jews please stand up? How about the real Christians? There's so much division within each religion that it's hard to tell the real thing. Who gets to decide?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Who's a true Jew? Will the real Jews please stand up? How about the real Christians? There's so much division within each religion that it's hard to tell the real thing. Who gets to decide?

I decide for everyone. :slap:

 

[Tarheeler]

Who's a true Jew? Will the real Jews please stand up? How about the real Christians? There's so much division within each religion that it's hard to tell the real thing. Who gets to decide?

Who is or is not a Jew is fairly well defined by Jewish law.
Christians can decide who is or is not a Christian for themselves.

 

[outhouse]

I'd rather like to think I'm appealing to reason. Some people it seems desire to claim a monopoly on what is to be considered 'true' Judaism..

Again it Is not about a monopoly. It is about understanding how wide and diverse and multi cultural it was. And if you don't have a clue, why make statements of certainty?

 

[Flankerl]

Is Jewish written law the bedrock of the Jewish faith?

Well there is a whole book dedicated to it with kinda specific(and sometimes not so specific) paragraphs of what to do and not to do.

Seems to have been kinda important. But what do i know.

No question that this was perpetrated and justified using Jesus' name by evil men. Jews are not innocent either. Just take a peek at the OT. I'm just saying

Ah the good ol "They had it coming".

Btw its retarded to compare actions from deepest antiquity which were pretty widespread back then(turns out that Ethics were different back then) with actions that lead us from late antiquity straight into the 20th century. Oh wait its already the 21st century.
Almost 2000 years of continuous hate and persecution.

Not bad.

Who's a true Jew? Will the real Jews please stand up?

Quite easy actually.
Jewish Mother and/or Giyur? Jew.
No Jewish Mother and/or Giyur? No Jew.

By who? Hellenist who hated Judaism and wanted to divorce it after the temple fell?

Ah the Temple. I am always torn between sad feelings and feelings of relief that it was destroyed.

A: On one side it was destroyed and we lost the Temple Mount till today.

B: On the other side the Christians didn't get to pervert it into one of their idol infested places of worship.

So in the end we should probably be a tiny little bit glad that it didn't turn out to be option B while being sad that it was option A.

 

[outhouse]

Do those who practice Judaism not follow strict, written laws? .

Yes and No. When is a better question.

Some did, some did not. And that is what im talking about, you don't understand Judaism in the first century to even begin to fathom the religion.

but the progression of the Jewish faith as taught by Jesus and the apostles.

yet your clueless to what Jesus taught, and have no idea what his Galilean disciples taught.

YOU only know what Hellenist wrote about him, who wanted to divorce Judaism yet keep one god.

Did Paul not teach that Jesus came to (in part) liberate them from these strict written laws?

No

Paul taught he was liberating them from Jewish law. And even if he did, Jesus was a Jew teaching Aramaic Judaism and not to change anything. Without knowing the diversity in the religion your lost.


You could bring up sources in scripture if you like so we can place them in context for you.

 

[ZenMonkey]

It's amazing how things like replacement theology, claims of deicide, and other nonsense crop their heads up every now and then.

These are legitimate inquiries and valid statements. You disagree with them, which is fine. I disagree with the sentiments that Paul did not belong to the Jewish faith. He certainly did not practice Judaism as it existed in the 1st century after Damascus nor how it is practiced today. His faith progressed after Damascus Rd. after which he was responsible for the progression and promotion of what came to be known as Christianity ... which he saw as a progression/continuance of the Jewish faith through Jesus.

 

[outhouse]

These are legitimate inquiries and valid statements. .

No they are not.

 

[Flankerl]

These are legitimate inquiries and valid statements. You disagree with them, which is fine. I disagree with the sentiments that Paul did not belong to the Jewish faith. He certainly did not practice Judaism as it existed in the 1st century after Damascus nor how it is practiced today. His faith progressed after Damascus Rd. after which he was responsible for the progression and promotion of what came to be known as Christianity ... which he saw as a progression/continuance of the Jewish faith through Jesus.

Aka Replacement Theology.

 

[outhouse]

His faith progressed after Damascus Rd

.

Again your clueless to history and what is known.

That is probably fiction by Acts. Paul himself tells a different story about his conversion that contradicts Acts, but your ignorance blinds you.


He had a feeling from within, by his own words. Not some fictional blinding account.

 

[Desert Snake]

Aka Replacement Theology.

No, he's saying it isn't.

 

[outhouse]

Aka Replacement Theology.

And pathetic at that.

Lets just throw stuff at the wall and see if it sticks

 

[Sleeppy]

Ah the good ol "They had it coming".

Btw its retarded to compare actions from deepest antiquity which were pretty widespread back then(turns out that Ethics were different back then) with actions that lead us from late antiquity straight into the 20th century. Oh wait its already the 21st century.
Almost 2000 years of continuous hate and persecution.

Not bad.


Ah the Temple. I am always torn between sad feelings and feelings of relief that it was destroyed.

A: On one side it was destroyed and we lost the Temple Mount till today.

B: On the other side the Christians didn't get to pervert it into one of their idol infested places of worship.

So in the end we should probably be a tiny little bit glad that it didn't turn out to be option B while being sad that it was option A.

God, according to the Torah, was quite zealous in regards to the Jewish people.. But the Torah also outlines several curses that would befall Jews if certain conditions were not met. It isn't lawful to suggest Jews are completely free of blame, no matter what century it is. Jews had God's presence according to the Torah, and were still being commanded to kill innocent women, children, infants, and animals. Hitler did not have God holding his hand, ready to send plagues on those cursing him.

It also doesn't make sense to disregard God's presence in the Temple, to the point where you'd believe idol worshippers, whom you call Christians, would be able control it. This idea goes against the idea that Jews are God's most precious possession. If that was the case, and you are completely innocent, you shouldn't believe Christians could take anything from you or God.