Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[outhouse]

Paul's teachings are a progression of the Jewish faith .

Paul joined a progression of Hellenist divorcing Judaism.

Your OP addresses when did Jews become Christians.

When was the speciation complete?

And your knowledge on the early Christian movement is not helping you. This is highly debated in educated circles, and you have no clue why.


When was the speciation complete? Let me ask you this.

Gentiles had started to convert to one god by way of the son of god, from the very beginning of the movement away from Judaism.

Were these people Jews? No Did they practice Judaism? No


From the very beginning many of what would become Christians factually did not practice Judaism.


We also know that this movement absorbed all of Hellenistic Judaism, and almost all the Proselytes to Judaism.


The switch from Jew to Christian was only a VERY VERY small part of what would become Christianty. Most converts to the movement were gentiles and Proselytes. They were not Jews who decided one day to pervert their life long customs.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Paul the Apostle and Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He successfully argued that Gentile converts did not need to follow Jewish customs, get circumcised, follow Jewish dietary restrictions, or otherwise observe Mosaic law,


A new covenant was not Jewish




How would you know?





others see him as opposed to 1st-century Judaism


Those others are professors and scholars, not someone hammering out their imagination on the internet.

Why not address my post instead of leaning on the shoulders of other theologians. Wiki is hardly a credible source anyway. Paul was a Jew by birth and by faith. You claim Paul was not a Jew, nor that he belonged to the Jewish faith, particularly after teaching others that Jesus was the messiah. I claim he was and helped progress the faith itself. Religiously Paul did not always practice Judaism. He had a change of heart from the religious aspects of the Jewish faith to the spiritual. Judaism focuses on religion and what they do by 'their' will for God by obligation. Paul taught others to live by the Spirit, which fulfills the law. When a person no longer needs the written law to keep them from acting wickedly and they have truly come to live according to the Spirit (love), the written law has been fulfilled through love. That's grace. God desires peace and good will towards men. Not one aspect of the law will be taken away or made void to until all is fulfilled through the spirit, which is the New Covenant. In other words Paul never taught Jews to forsake the law, but he rather helped lead many to live through love (spirit) by which the law is fulfilled. Jews today do the same as you charge Paul and teach that Gentiles are not bound by the law like Jews are. Your argument is without substance.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Paul joined a progression of Hellenist divorcing Judaism.

Your OP addresses when did Jews become Christians.

When was the speciation complete?

And your knowledge on the early Christian movement is not helping you. This is highly debated in educated circles, and you have no clue why.


When was the speciation complete? Let me ask you this.

Gentiles had started to convert to one god by way of the son of god, from the very beginning of the movement away from Judaism.

Were these people Jews? No Did they practice Judaism? No


From the very beginning many of what would become Christians factually did not practice Judaism.


We also know that this movement absorbed all of Hellenistic Judaism, and almost all the Proselytes to Judaism.


The switch from Jew to Christian was only a VERY VERY small part of what would become Christianty. Most converts to the movement were gentiles and Proselytes. They were not Jews who decided one day to pervert their life long customs.

You speak of customs as if customs make or break the faith itself. Also, I'm speaking about Paul NOT Christians. Christianity as it exists today is something else entirely. On one hand there is religious law and on the other there is fulfillment of God's will and law. Judaism today focuses on religious law and obligation, whereas Paul focused on the fulfillment of the law by grace and by faith working through love (spirit).

 

[outhouse]

'You claim Paul was not a Jew

Im sorry but you have serious comprehension issues here.


I did not state that.

Post where I said that

 

[outhouse]

Christianity as it exists today is something else entirely.

You have serious comprehension issues here.

I have not stated anything about todays or even the movement past 100 CE

Judaism today focuses

You have serious comprehension issues here.

I have not stated anything about todays Judaism or Judaism past 100 CE

 

[outhouse]

You claim Paul was not a Jew,.

Lets talk about your honesty




Here is my exact statement below

With all my studies, I have no idea if he was a Jew or a Proselyte to Judaism.

SO! HOW HONEST ARE YOU ????????????????? :slap:

 

[Tarheeler]

These are legitimate inquiries and valid statements. You disagree with them, which is fine. I disagree with the sentiments that Paul did not belong to the Jewish faith. He certainly did not practice Judaism as it existed in the 1st century after Damascus nor how it is practiced today. His faith progressed after Damascus Rd. after which he was responsible for the progression and promotion of what came to be known as Christianity ... which he saw as a progression/continuance of the Jewish faith through Jesus.

Of course you see it that way. And Muslims see Islam as the natural "progression" of those that came before it, and the Bahá'í believe Bahá'u'lláh's teachings were a natural "progression" of what came before it.

But the simple fact is that religions are built around tenets, and once a leader/movement/sect moves away from those positions they become something else entirely. While Christianity found its initial foundation in Judaism, it ceased to be part of it when it declared a dead man to be the messiah and changed the basic ideas of salvation, atonement, and adherence to Torah. It's no more a "progression" of Judaism than Islam is a "progression" of Christianity.

 

[Flankerl]

Christian ignorance? Care to explain your statement and elaborate a bit?

Its like we still live in pre-Google Internet times where there arent any sites explaining the "Chosen"-Status of the Jewish People from a Jewish point of view.

Traditional Views of Jewish Chosenness - My Jewish Learning

It looks like neither to me, but it does look a great deal like a progression of the Jewish faith. Even practicing Jews suggest that gentiles are not bound by Jewish law since Jewish law was given to the Jewish people and to the Jewish people alone. According to Paul, this progression came with some liberties and also some conditions. The letter of the law is no longer binding to those who live through the Spirit, but is rather fulfilled through the spirit.


As I understand it, the Old covenant made with the Jewish people is still binding to the Jewish people until such time that one truly turns their heart to God and begins to live through the spirit. At which point God's grace is sufficient when it comes to living according to his will. The letter is not needed in other words, but rather faith and an unyielding love for God and neighbor. This simply cannot be forced nor acquired by 'our' will. God gives to those who ask as I understand it though.


Contrary to popular Christian dogma, grace isn't a license to live as you please. Quite the contrary, it is impossible to lead a wicked life if you live in God's grace through faith and by our faith working through love. When a person no longer needs the written law to keep them from acting wickedly and they have truly come to live according to the Spirit (love), the written law has been fulfilled. That's grace. Not one aspect of the law will be taken away until all is fulfilled through the spirit, which is the New Covenant.


The purpose of the written law was to help maintain order in what was a wicked generation. The laws were meant to curb Jewish desire to do wicked things. The law is made up of a bunch of rules that many obey because they feel obligated. It's a requirement of the religion. The Spirit of the law is love, however. God loved the Jewish nation enough to help them maintain order by giving laws and penalties to follow and carry out as a people. Love however, or rather the spirit enables us to live in God's grace when our faith has been placed in love and when this spirit is nurtured enough to multiply in our hearts.


It's not replacement theology at all. Paul didn't throw Judaism out the window, but rather conveyed a New Covenant which is the fulfillment of what God desires for us as his children. To love and be loved, and to keep the faith in love and live in its grace. Paul's teachings are a progression of the Jewish faith and not an opposition to the Jewish faith as many seem to believe.

Ugh and you say you aren't even a Christian?

All this disgusting talk of love about a Religion which spawned almost 2000 years of hatred against non-believers including my kin.

Yeah i pass.

Considering the Israelites literally had God in their company, able and willing to give commands (not just advice), I don't see how you're able to exempt your ancestors from morals we've attained only after God "left" everyone to themselves. Seems absolutely wrong to me. Seems completely backwards.

And sometimes one can even read the chapters which precede later chapters and then this wonderful thing called "context" becomes clear.

Either or. Neither control, nor desecration, nor destruction should have even been possible considering the magnitude and number of miraculous interventions God partook in solely for the wellbeing of the Jewish people. There needs to be some reason the intervention stopped.

Let me guess, Christianity is the new blablablablablabla...

Jews today say Gentiles don't need to follow the entire Mosaic law.. 7 Noachide laws instead. Paul was still an observant Jew.

No.

With all my studies, I have no idea if he was a Jew or a Proselyte to Judaism.

The important thing is that it doesn't matter at all to his beliefs.

He did not teach a 1st Temple Judaism.
Nor a Babylonian Exile Judaism.
Nor an early 2nd Temple Judaism.
Nor an late 2nd Temple Judaism.
He also did not teach an post 2nd Temple Judaism.


He taught Christianity and there are quite some people who believe that it was him who made the biggest early steps of this post-Jesus sect away from Judaism.

Whether he was a Jew, Shintoist, Buddhist or Tengri... follower(?) doesn't matter at all.


PS: inb4 "he was a devout Muslim, here are some quotes from the Quran"

Of course you see it that way. And Muslims see Islam as the natural "progression" of those that came before it, and the Bahá'í believe Bahá'u'lláh's teachings were a natural "progression" of what came before it.

But the simple fact is that religions are built around tenets, and once a leader/movement/sect moves away from those positions they become something else entirely. While Christianity found its initial foundation in Judaism, it ceased to be part of it when it declared a dead man to be the messiah and changed the basic ideas of salvation, atonement, and adherence to Torah. It's no more a "progression" of Judaism than Islam is a "progression" of Christianity.

That's the best thing about Islam. They do the same thing to Christianity which the Christians did to us.

It's super hilarious.

 

[paarsurrey]

1) You are Jewish if your mother is/was Jewish or you converted

2) The Jewish Messiah will have fulfilled all the messianic prophesies. Jesus didn't fulfill them

3) No Jewish Messiah will ever claim to be a divine being in any way

4) No Jewish Messiah will ever claim to have "fulfilled the law". The law was made by G-D, nothing and nobody get in between that.

5) As far as the "dark ages". Christians in the name of Christianity have tortured and murdered millions of people. Try to find Jew in the last 2,000 years whom have even come close to that.

6) Whatever christianity is it certainly has nothing to with Judaism or at the very least is a tremendous perversion of it.

1) You are Jewish if your mother is/was Jewish or you converted

Please quote from Torah in this connection.

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

And here we go. opcorn:

 

[paarsurrey]

1) You are Jewish if your mother is/was Jewish or you converted

And here we go. opcorn:

You are also free to quote from Torah that one is Jew if one's mother is/was Jew/Jewish or if one converts to Judaism. Please

Regards

 

[Sees]

You are also free to quote from Torah that one is Jew if one's mother is/was Jew/Jewish or if one converts to Judaism. Please

Regards

Is it because they are a "People of the Book" that you feel it needs to be dictated in scripture?

 

[Flankerl]

And I am also free not to waste my time with certain members of this Forum.

 

[Sleeppy]

And sometimes one can even read the chapters which precede later chapters and then this wonderful thing called "context" becomes clear.

Which chapters and "context" did you have in mind?

Let me guess, Christianity is the new blablablablablabla...

Don't guess. I didn't make that claim. What do you know?

 

[paarsurrey]

And I am also free not to waste my time with certain members of this Forum.

Well that is your pleasure.
I am pleased to discuss with everybody even with those who differ with me because with the grace of G-d I am never short of good, reasonable and rational arguments.
You are always welcome

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Is it because they are a "People of the Book" that you feel it needs to be dictated in scripture?

Bible means book. Muhammad respected Jews, Christians and Magos of Persia as they were recipient of Revelation from G-d by their messengers/prophets Moses, Jesus and Zoroaster. Muhammad was an open-minded and moderate person, he never liked extremism or extremists. He was most tolerant of a person.

Jews say that they are a chosen people and they have a book they follow and dedicated to. Who is a Jew is an important question. Why is Torah silent about it?

They must be dedicated to Torah. I agree with you.

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

Which chapters and "context" did you have in mind?

If only i'd care enough.

Don't guess. I didn't make that claim. What do you know?

Oh please i've been here for 4 years.

Well that is your pleasure.
I am pleased to discuss with everybody even with those who differ with me because with the grace of G-d I am never short of good, reasonable and rational arguments.
You are always welcome

Regards

You are always cracking me up.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Lets talk about your honesty




Here is my exact statement below





SO! HOW HONEST ARE YOU ????????????????? :slap:

Still you reject the idea that Paul belonged to the Jewish faith, which is what this thread is about. Maybe you're not sure if Paul was truly Jewish. It is widely believed that he was. I'm not certain why you have doubts in the first place. Seems unwarranted to me, but whatever. The thread is about Paul's theology and him belonging to the Jewish faith, post Damascus. Do you have an argument or will you continue with the insults? You don't seem to be able to form an argument apart from wiki and you expect me to climb on board because you just happened to post a wiki link?

 

[ZenMonkey]

Of course you see it that way. And Muslims see Islam as the natural "progression" of those that came before it, and the Bahá'í believe Bahá'u'lláh's teachings were a natural "progression" of what came before it.

But the simple fact is that religions are built around tenets, and once a leader/movement/sect moves away from those positions they become something else entirely. While Christianity found its initial foundation in Judaism, it ceased to be part of it when it declared a dead man to be the messiah and changed the basic ideas of salvation, atonement, and adherence to Torah. It's no more a "progression" of Judaism than Islam is a "progression" of Christianity.

It's a progressive faith as I understand it, and we're certainly not where we need to be yet. We do not have peace on earth and goodwill towards men. Instead, laws are needed to help keep order. You have Jewish religious law and then other cultures have their laws. After the exodus many laws were created in attempt to create and maintain order. This is not just applicable to Jews. The difference is that Jewish law came from God. God chose to intervene for the Jewish people. This ultimately helped them become the powerful nation they became. Jesus showed the apostles a better way to achieve peace on earth and goodwill towards men. There are few Christians who can clearly claim true liberation through the Spirit, though. This is obvious.


We're progressing as a people and have a very long way to go before peace on earth is achieved. Instead of just obeying the letter, the idea is that the Spirit will change us from the inside out where the laws are no longer needed. Obedience to God's will will be a natural result to that change of heart. Until then not one jot or tiddle of the law will pass away simply because the purpose of the law would not have been fulfilled by the Spirit.


It takes time for both Jew and Gentile to be changed enough that written laws are no longer needed. To date, they most certainly are needed, but then gentiles are not required to live according to Jewish law. Paul reached out to gentiles. His teachings were meant for gentile audiences. Jewish laws are for Jewish people, but God's grace is for all, which is what Paul taught in his letters. When you live by grace through faith and love, the laws are no longer needed. Judaism makes a religion out of the written law, whereas the continuation and progression of the Jewish faith taught by Paul became more spiritual in practice and less about self will and/or obedience to the letter. It's about liberation as I see it.

 

[Harikrish]

Paul converted to an early creed of Christianity taught by the early Hellenistic Christian Jews. He then took Christianity to the Gentiles and did away with all the cumbersome Jewish laws such as circumcision, sabbath and dietary restrictions to make it easy for Gentiles to convert to Christianity. Note, Paul was not converting the Gentiles to Judaism.

In fact he has a special place in Christianity. The doctrines he preached is called the Pauline Christianity and he is known as the apostle of the Gentiles.