Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[ZenMonkey]

I don't deal with dishonesty and you will get called on ignorance.


It is one thing to state I think or I believe. But when you make certainties based on ignorance, you get no free ride.


You making historical statements from ignorance and everyone here has called you on it less those who are clueless to history themselves.


What you are doing is called Fanaticism, you are refusing credible knowledge. Not only that some of what I posit is my own version of what happened and ive made it clear. You just are so lost you don't know where I sit in relationship to historians. HINT its very very close.


You dont get to make this up on the fly

I reject common views that Paul doesn't qualify as belonging to the Jewish faith ... Again, I'm NOT speaking of Judaism as it exists or existed in the 1st century. If you cared to read and/or address my posts you'd have gathered as much by now. You create straw man arguments and avoid what is actually being discussed.

 

[outhouse]

I reject common views that Paul doesn't qualify as belonging to the Jewish faith ... Again.

Reject all you want, we don't know.

His Judaism is questioned for very good reasons.


This was a time when Hellenist Proselytes called themselves Jews for simply swearing off pagan deities. It is a perversion of Judaism.

Hellenistic Proselytes were as skilled in Judaism as Jews were, and even more so the Sadducees or Essenes, yet it does NOT change the fact they were Proselytes to Judaism "not Jews"

An Aramaic Jew would not define them as a Jew in any way.


Do you understand why there is confusion about Paul yet?

 

[ZenMonkey]

Paul founded a new religion, so there is no need to ascribe him to Judaism.

Regards

Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith NOT a new religion. Different views uncommon to the Jewish faith were adopted however. Many Jews rejected this progression, while others embraced it. Jesus was thought to be the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul climbed on board and from Paul's efforts a new way of looking at the Jewish faith was birthed. It's a progression of Judaism, but cannot be considered Judaism as most practice it today. It's still a progression of the Jewish faith.


Whether you or anyone else accepts this progression is moot. I'm certainly not asking you to accept Jesus as the promised messiah. However, you don't get to determine who is or is not, or what constitutes someone belonging to the Jewish faith. Simply because some don't practice this faith the same as you is not a reason to demand they do not belong to it. Christians tend to try the same black balling when it comes to those who believe differently than they do. It's not like anyone has a monopoly on any one particular system of belief. The Jewish faith is no different. It's not exclusive to how you practice it.

 

[Harikrish]

I have no argument here, it is a 'different' religion from Judaism, however this does not mean that ones adherence to Jewish law in the Christian perspective is 'false' or an affront to modern day Judaism, that is plainly silly, imo.

The Jews are still waiting for their messiah. But by rejecting Jesus they do not qualify for eternal life. By keeping the Mosaic laws does not buy them a place in heaven because the only way to heaven is through Jesus.

So what good is keeping Jewish laws for? The Christians don't need it anymore, they have a new covenant with God. The Jews still struggle to keep it even though it has lost its religious significance. A sacrificed foreskin gets you a lot less from God than it used to during Abraham's time.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Reject all you want, we don't know.

His Judaism is questioned for very good reasons.


This was a time when Hellenist Proselytes called themselves Jews for simply swearing off pagan deities. It is a perversion of Judaism.

Hellenistic Proselytes were as skilled in Judaism as Jews were, and even more so the Sadducees or Essenes, yet it does NOT change the fact they were Proselytes to Judaism "not Jews"

An Aramaic Jew would not define them as a Jew in any way.


Do you understand why there is confusion about Paul yet?

What you call perversions I might call progression. Christianity is based on Jewish prophesies of a coming messiah. Paul never converted to Christianity, but he rather viewed Jesus as the fulfillment of the Jewish faith. That alone would qualify Paul's teachings as being Jewish in faith. The only difference is many in the Jewish community rejected Jesus as the messiah. Still, they don't get to determine what is and what is not the 'true' Jewish faith. Neither do Christians get to determine what is the true faith. This discussion is about Paul and his views in relation to Jewish customs from past to present. Lets talk about the subject instead of the apparent pride you take in your resume.

 

[Desert Snake]

So what good is keeping Jewish laws for? The Christians don't need it anymore, they have a new covenant with God.

Jesus only changed some of the laws, not all, that is my perspective. People can practice any sort of variation on these ideas it doesn't bother me, however I have my perspective on these issues.
'New Covenant' is a continuation of the previous Covenant.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith NOT a new religion. Different views uncommon to the Jewish faith were adopted however. Many Jews rejected this progression, while others embraced it. Jesus was thought to be the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul climbed on board and from Paul's efforts a new way of looking at the Jewish faith was birthed. It's a progression of Judaism, but cannot be considered Judaism as most practice it today. It's still a progression of the Jewish faith.


Whether you or anyone else accepts this progression is moot. I'm certainly not asking you to accept Jesus as the promised messiah. However, you don't get to determine who is or is not, or what constitutes someone belonging to the Jewish faith. Simply because some don't practice this faith the same as you is not a reason to demand they do not belong to it. Christians tend to try the same black balling when it comes to those who believe differently than they do. It's not like anyone has a monopoly on any one particular system of belief. The Jewish faith is no different. It's not exclusive to how you practice it.

Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith NOT a new religion.

Please quote from a Jewish source that Paul did not invent a new religion and he died as a Jew.

When he abandoned Judaism; then why ascribe him to Judaism?

Regards

 

[outhouse]

Paul taught a progression of the Jewish faith .

No he did not.


He taught a progression of Hellenistic perversion of Judaism.

He taught to throw out Jewish customs, laws, and teachings.


He plagiarized Judaism, the same way muslims plagiarized the bible.

Bu your account muslims are Jews and Christians :slap:

 

[ZenMonkey]

No he did not.


He taught a progression of Hellenistic perversion of Judaism.

He taught to throw out Jewish customs, laws, and teachings.


He plagiarized Judaism, the same way muslims plagiarized the bible.

Bu your account muslims are Jews and Christians :slap:

Woosh :slap:

 

[outhouse]

What you call perversions I might call progression. Christianity is based on Jewish prophesies of a coming messiah. .

A perverted view Jews never endorsed.


Jesus was a failed messiah in Judaism :slap: he did not fulfill the prophecy.



So was muhamad a Jew or Christian or both ?????

 

[ZenMonkey]

Please quote from a Jewish source that Paul did not invent a new religion and he died as a Jew.

When he abandoned Judaism; then why ascribe him to Judaism?

Regards

Paul would be that source. He abandoned old Jewish customs and laws in favor of something he believed to be better. His faith represented a fulfillment of Jewish prophesy through Jesus - He never abandoned the religion and/or faith. He merely saw a better way through who he believed was the promised Jewish messiah. Law v.s Spirit - Customs v.s condition of heart.


Regards

 

[ZenMonkey]

A perverted view Jews never endorsed.


Jesus was a failed messiah in Judaism :slap: he did not fulfill the prophecy.



So was muhamad a Jew or Christian or both ?????

Neither. Mohammad was never a Jew, nor was he ever a Christian. :slap::slap: Jesus never failed, but according to many all the prophesies have not yet been fulfilled. He lives on and there's not a time limit on when he might fulfill them. Judaism rejects Jesus in part because of what they view to be not yet fulfilled prophesies. It makes no difference in relation to my op. It was believed by Paul that Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. That's a fact according to his writings.

 

[Harikrish]

Jesus only changed some of the laws, not all, that is my perspective. People can practice any sort of variation on these ideas it doesn't bother me, however I have my perspective on these issues.
'New Covenant' is a continuation of the previous Covenant.

Christians don't circumcise, or respect the sabbath or even follow kosher or restricted diets. Christians don't covert the land of their neighbours or send missiles into civilian populations killing innocent women and children.

There is even doubt there are Jews left from the seed of Abraham. The temple was destroyed in 70AD.

You hold a minority view. But your people did kill your own messiah which is the majority view.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's not about how big our johnsons are either.

If it were, I would win.:clap

 

[Akivah]

It's not replacement theology at all. Paul didn't throw Judaism out the window, but rather conveyed a New Covenant which is the fulfillment of what God desires for us as his children. ... Paul's teachings are a progression of the Jewish faith and not an opposition to the Jewish faith as many seem to believe.

Even if one were to assume that Paul was knowledgeable about Judaism, why does he alone get to decide the future of Jewish practices? We have had thousands of sages and knowledgeable people. They had visions from G-d and they are knowledgeable of Torah. Why are their opinions ignored and only this one guy listened to?

 

[ZenMonkey]

If it were, I would win.:clap

Hehehe ...

 

[ZenMonkey]

Even if one were to assume that Paul was knowledgeable about Judaism, why does he alone get to decide the future of Jewish practices? We have had thousands of sages and knowledgeable people. They had visions from G-d and they are knowledgeable of Torah. Why are their opinions ignored and only this one guy listened to?

I agree, and that's the beauty of it all. We're free to believe whom makes the most sense to us. I identify with Paul. Other will identify with other sages and what not.

 

[outhouse]

Neither. Mohammad was never a Jew, nor was he ever a Christian. .

With your methodology and refusal and perversion of evidence, he should be.


Yet let Paul pervert Judaism.

But muhammad cannot

 

[Akivah]

The difference is that Jewish law came from God. God chose to intervene for the Jewish people. This ultimately helped them become the powerful nation they became. Jesus showed the apostles a better way to achieve peace on earth and goodwill towards men.

So G-d's way is inferior to Jesus's way?

Judaism makes a religion out of the written law, whereas the continuation and progression of the Jewish faith taught by Paul became more spiritual in practice and less about self will and/or obedience to the letter. It's about liberation as I see it.

So Paul knows better than G-d too?

 

[outhouse]

He lives on and there's not a time limit on when he might fulfill them.

.

No, that is called faith not fact. It has no place in historical methods at all.

At this time he died, and is never coming back. And failed to be the promised messiah.