Judaism, Christianity, and the Jewish Faith

[outhouse]

So Paul knows better than G-d too?

His methodology is if you plagiarize the OT more then the next guy, your teaching Judaism.


If you plagiarize the OT and NT nope sorry no Jew there.

 

[ZenMonkey]

So G-d's way is inferior to Jesus's way?

No. Jesus is believed to have been sent by God. He is believed to have been God's spokesman on earth. What Jesus taught would certainly be better able to create peace on earth and goodwill towards men. When the old laws were given it was a very different age. Perhaps they were not yet ready to receive the spiritual so God gave them what 'they' needed at that time. We've progressed as a people and are progressing.

So Paul knows better than G-d too?

No. Paul believed that Jesus was sent by God to liberate the world. God is still being honored only this honor is done through a persons spiritual condition of heart and not through obedience to written law alone. The goal is peace on earth and goodwill towards men.

 

[Akivah]

I agree, and that's the beauty of it all. We're free to believe whom makes the most sense to us. I identify with Paul. Other will identify with other sages and what not.

Well there's your answer to your OP then.

Paul believed Jesus was the promised messiah spoken of by Jewish prophets. Paul believed the Jewish faith was being fulfilled by Jesus.

You believe in Paul's teachings. We don't and never have and never will.

The dude may have been Jewish, but he doesn't speak for Judaism.

 

[Akivah]

Jesus is believed to have been sent by God. He is believed to have been God's spokesman on earth.

Believed by whom?

Paul believed that Jesus was sent by God to liberate the world.

Sounds like circular reasoning. You believe in Jesus because Paul said so. You believe in Paul because he believed in Jesus.

So again, you believe this one dude who says that this other fellow was sent by G-d. Why do you give so much credence to one person?

We have G-d's direct teaching. We don't listen to any one person telling us stuff that is different from G-d's words. No person is that authoritative.

 

[ZenMonkey]

With your methodology and refusal and perversion of evidence, he should be.


Yet let Paul pervert Judaism.

Not at all. Paul was a Jew who practiced Jewish customs and Jewish law until he had a spiritual change of heart and began to view Jesus as the chosen messiah spoken of by prophets belonging to his Jewish heritage. Mohammad belonged to a different culture altogether. He was never considered to be of Jewish descent, nor did he ever practice Jewish customs or law. Paul did. Paul believed in the old Jewish prophesies concerning a savior. His teachings were a progression of the Jewish faith and not a new religion. Many Jews would view Paul's contributions to be a perversion, but I obviously disagree with those sentiments.

 

[outhouse]

Not at all. Paul was a Jew .

You don't know that.

You ignore Proselytes practiced Judaism to, but that did not make them Jewish.

who practiced Jewish customs

No he did not. He threw them all out the window. Its why his Judaism is questioned.

began to view Jesus as the chosen messiah

Who cares, it does not represent the view of most Jews.

It does represent the view of a Hellenist who perverted Judaism though.

 

[outhouse]

his Jewish heritage
.

Not known. only claimed.

He was not from Israel.
He did not teach Judaism
He taught to not follow Jewish customs
He taught not to follow Jewish laws

 

[ZenMonkey]

Well there's your answer to your OP then.



You believe in Paul's teachings. We don't and never have and never will.

The dude may have been Jewish, but he doesn't speak for Judaism.

That's my point (in part). He cannot speak for those Jews who were left behind, only for what he believed about Jesus. A progression of the Jewish faith was ushered in by Paul, but this progression does not include all belonging to the Jewish faith. Many still rely on old customs and old written laws instead of allowing God's Spirit to change their condition of heart whereby these customs and laws would no longer be required by them. Some have been liberated, while others have not. Some prefer the old ways over the new, and I can't imagine God frowning on their faith based obedience to the old laws and customs. They are different from the new, but are equally important if peace on earth and goodwill towards men is to ever be achieved.

 

[outhouse]

Paul's theology of the gospel accelerated the separation of the messianic sect of Christians from Judaism,

 

[ZenMonkey]

Believed by whom?



Sounds like circular reasoning. You believe in Jesus because Paul said so. You believe in Paul because he believed in Jesus.

So again, you believe this one dude who says that this other fellow was sent by G-d. Why do you give so much credence to one person?

We have G-d's direct teaching. We don't listen to any one person telling us stuff that is different from G-d's words. No person is that authoritative.

Actually ,I'm a gentile who see's great value in being led by a sincere love for God and my fellow neighbors. Jesus and the apostles have helped awaken my heart enough to see what such leading can do for this world. I give credence to love (Spirit). I identify with what Jesus and the apostles taught. You may ask yourself why you give such credence to your holy books. I know why I give credence to love, but do you know why you do the same to your holy books, customs, and religious laws?

 

[ZenMonkey]

Not known. only claimed.

He was not from Israel.
He did not teach Judaism
He taught to not follow Jewish customs
He taught not to follow Jewish laws

Claimed and widely believed. The pudding is in his belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. He may not have been from Israel, but pre Damascus it is likewise widely believed that Saul practiced Jewish customs and laws. Post Damascus, Paul progressed the Jewish faith. He believed the natural progression per Jesus' teachings was that of Spirit instead of self will based obedience to written law and custom.

 

[outhouse]

. The pudding is in his belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah..

No it is not. Gentiles believed he was the messiah.

Perverting Judaism is not Judaism.

Claimed and widely believed

people believe in the Exodus and Abraham, and Noah and a global flood, and walking on water, yet FACTUALLY not one of those people or events has any historicity as exiting or happening.

apologetics does not dictate history

 

[outhouse]

Jews following Christianity did exist, you just don't have he knowledge to make or even discuss the differences between the two.


You still cannot explain why someone practicing Judaism is still factually not a Jew, and these people followed Judaism much closer then Paul. Proselytes were factually not Jews

 

[Akivah]

The pudding is in his belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah.

LOL, totally circular reasoning.

You hold Paul as authoritative because he believed that some guy was the Jewish messiah. And you know that the guy was the Jewish messiah because Paul said so.

 

[Desert Snake]

Christians don't circumcise, or respect the sabbath or even follow kosher or restricted diets. Christians don't covert the land of their neighbours or send missiles into civilian populations killing innocent women and children.

There is even doubt there are Jews left from the seed of Abraham. The temple was destroyed in 70AD.

You hold a minority view. But your people did kill your own messiah which is the majority view.

I don't recommend putting much stock in the 'majority view', especially regarding religious matters.

Anyways, strawman in the extreme, it was a 'mob' that handed Jesus over to the Romans, not some Israelite concensus, like I should even have to state that obvious fact.

 

[Akivah]

Actually ,I'm a gentile who see's great value in being led by a sincere love for God and my fellow neighbors. Jesus and the apostles have helped awaken my heart enough to see what such leading can do for this world. I give credence to love (Spirit). I identify with what Jesus and the apostles taught. You may ask yourself why you give such credence to your holy books. I know why I give credence to love, but do you know why you do the same to your holy books, customs, and religious laws?

Christianity brings nothing new to the table. It actually moves away from G-d's teachings.

Judaism already has great love and respect for G-d. Many people have had their heart awoken by G-d through Judaism. I know about G-d and I respect Him. I give credence to the Jewish bible since our entire nation saw and heard G-d at Sinai. It wasn't just one person telling us something. We all saw and heard G-d directly.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Christianity brings nothing new to the table. It actually moves away from G-d's teachings.

Judaism already has great love and respect for G-d. Many people have had their heart awoken by G-d through Judaism. I know about G-d and I respect Him. I give credence to the Jewish bible since our entire nation saw and heard G-d at Sinai. It wasn't just one person telling us something. We all saw and heard G-d directly.

I won't argue your first point. As for the Jewish bible: Perhaps they are fictional stories meant to get and keep you in line. The point is that I see great benefit in living according to Jesus' teachings. My life is fuller by simply placing value in love for God and neighbor. I personally do not need all the different laws and customs to deal with. They can be grievous as I understand them - very few true freedoms are allowed and many of the old penalties for disobedience severe.

 

[ZenMonkey]

LOL, totally circular reasoning.

You hold Paul as authoritative because he believed that some guy was the Jewish messiah. And you know that the guy was the Jewish messiah because Paul said so.

I'm not Christian, but many do believe Jesus was the Jewish messiah. I view Jesus to be more of a guide, a teacher, and one who was very attuned to God's Spiritual essence. I identify with Jesus and the apostles because what they teach about love (spirit) is helpful, easy, and would create a much better world. Paul is no more authoritative than Stephen Covey in my view. A Jew carrying his Jewish faith forward due to his belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah is not circular reasoning. He belonged to the Jewish faith (.)

 

[Harikrish]

I don't recommend putting much stock in the 'majority view', especially regarding religious matters.

Anyways, strawman in the extreme, it was a 'mob' that handed Jesus over to the Romans, not some Israelite concensus, like I should even have to state that obvious fact.

It wasn't the mob that handed Jesus to the Romans. It was one of Jesus's disciples Judas that led the Romans to Jesus.

It was the high priest that charged Jesus with blasphemy.

Mark 14:. 60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63 The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked.
64 "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" They all condemned him as worthy of death.
65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Jews following Christianity did exist, you just don't have he knowledge to make or even discuss the differences between the two.


You still cannot explain why someone practicing Judaism is still factually not a Jew, and these people followed Judaism much closer then Paul. Proselytes were factually not Jews

Your point is? You speak of Judaism, when I am (again) speaking of a progression of the Jewish faith by Paul who is believed to be of Jewish descent. There's certainly a difference between Judaism and the direction Paul took the Jewish faith. Paul once practiced Judaic laws and customs as I understand it, then he had a change of heart (spiritually speaking) and pioneered a progression of the faith he belonged to. It has come to be known as Christianity, but Christianity as it exists today is a shadow of its formal self (imo). Judaism is a shadow of what Paul envisioned for the Jewish faith also. None of these can lay claim of being the true faith, only that they are different in practice.

You smug disposition suits you. :clap