Judaism vs Christianity: Second Coming of Messiah

[Kenny]

I am not talking about Paul or Peter. I am talking about the church that called itself Messianic Judaism.

But I never was talking about the title on the church... I was talking about Messianic Jews in context of the OP.

But since you brought Christians of the 1st century up, then when the gospels tell people that the Christian faith can replace the teaching of the laws (Torah) then they are in essence, no longer Jews.

I disagree. I find nothing to support that position. Can you quote me some?

Second, Paul was saying that non-Jewish Christians - the Gentiles - the Egyptian Christians, Greek Christians, Roman Christians, etc - don’t have to become Jews to follow Christ, hence don’t have follow Jewish customs and rites, and that understandable.

I don't think that is what he said or is said. I believe he said, Romans 2:29 But you are Jewish because of the inward act of spiritual circumcision—a radical change that lays bare your heart.

and again...

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (the olive tree symbolizing Israel.

Perhaps what you meant is that the Gentiles don't have to follow some Jewish customs?

 

[Rival]

To clarify:

Eating kosher, as it relates to meat products means that the specific animal qualifies as a kosher animal. It is slaughtered and inspected according to particular standards. The meat is then washed, salted (to draw out remaining blood) and washed again. Only certain parts of the animal can be prepared this way, and it must be prepared under the supervision of an accredited expert. There is no question of "spices" and while it is a bit more expensive than non-kosher meat, if someone uses money as an excuse not to keep kosher, that person is lying to himself and everyone else.

Didn't Daniel choose the option of being a vegetarian instead because he couldn't have kosher meats? Even if you have little money for meat, no-one is forcing you to eat it every day. Just giving up kashrut is not the answer.

 

[dybmh]

I'm not sure how just pulling any scripture out and asking that question makes it relevant however wonderful that scripture is.

Your comment was that Jesus was simply fulfilling the law. That would mean that what Jesus promoted in the NT conforms to Jewish law. I provided an example which doesn't seem to conform to Jewish law. But, I'm not a Rabbi, so I can't say for sure. Since you made the claim, I thought you would be able to explain how that specific verse, John 14:13, simply fulfills the law. If you can't explain it, maybe you're not qualified to make such a claim.

 

[rosends]

Didn't Daniel choose the option of being a vegetarian instead because he couldn't have kosher meats? Even if you have little money for meat, no-one is forcing you to eat it every day. Just giving up kashrut is not the answer.

Very true. And if one wants meat, one can buy cheap cuts of kosher meat, or (as I prefer) just save money by not eating any vegetables

 

[Rival]

just save money by not eating any vegetables

I am on board with this.........

 

[Kenny]

You mean “fulfilling” the prophecies, not the laws.

Laws aren’t fulfilled unless you are referring to laws being legislated/codified/ratified/enacted/enforced, or upheld in court trials.

The laws and prophecies are two different things.

The Torah (Law) and Nevi’im (Prophets) are two of the 3 divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures or Tanakh...or Old Testament Bible. The central tenets of Judaism is the Torah.

The laws were already codified by Moses, so saying that Jesus “fulfilled” the law seemed rather odd and misleading to me, because he has never pass or codified any law.

I think when Paul said "law fulfilled"... he was talking about the Law. When it says "That it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet..." then its talking about prophecy.

 

[Flankerl]

Since, as it was taught us by these Jewish believers

This is is so illogical.
Something doesn't become right or wrong due to the person saying it but their sources.

The vast majority of Jews 1900 Years ago rejected the dead Jew on a stick and his followers. You completely ignore them.

But his tiny numbers of Jewish followers are somehow the highest authority.

"But Saul was a Pharisee"
lmao there are Firefighters who light fires.

Jesus simply fulfills the law

I just can't take Christian arguments serious.
As if you even know what "the law" entails.

lmao so Jesus fulfilled
That when the Ark is carried, it should be carried on the shoulder (Num. 7:9)

Or
Not to pluck out the marks of leprosy (Deut. 24:8)

That's fantastic. Amazing. 10/10 Christianity

Can we also do that in common law today? Steve over here fulfilled the law of not killing someone.
Therefore we can now all kill people.

The entire idea of "Jesus fulfilled the law" is the single biggest cop-out after him staying dead and not returning.
That way you don't have to explain why the law is no longer in effect, it just is because "Jesus".
Quite literally a Deus X Machina which is the dumbest way of finishing a story in a book or film.

I'm not sure how just pulling any scripture out and asking that question makes it relevant however wonderful that scripture is.

Matt 10: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Romans 8:3 For God achieved what the law was unable to accomplish, because the law was limited by the weakness of human nature.Yet God sent us his Son in human form to identify with human weakness. Clothed with humanity, God’s Son gave his body to be the sin-offering so that God could once and for all condemn the guilt and power of sin. 4 So now every righteous requirement of the law can be fulfilled through the Anointed One living his life in us. And we are free to live, not according to our flesh, but by the dynamic power of the Holy Spirit! 5 Those who are motivated by the flesh only pursue what benefits themselves. But those who live by the impulses of the Holy Spirit are motivated to pursue spiritual realities.

That stupid moment when the Christians start quoting their scriptures to a Jew is always one that I will forever cherish.
It's always so beautiful.

Why not quote the Vedas? Or I don't know the Tao Te Ching?
About as relevant as what you did.

 

[Kenny]

Your comment was that Jesus was simply fulfilling the law. That would mean that what Jesus promoted in the NT conforms to Jewish law. I provided an example which doesn't seem to conform to Jewish law. But, I'm not a Rabbi, so I can't say for sure. Since you made the claim, I thought you would be able to explain how that specific verse, John 14:13, simply fulfills the law. If you can't explain it, maybe you're not qualified to make such a claim.

First you have to establish why you think that is part of the law. I never made any claim about John 14:13 -- you did. Why do you think it is relevant?

So... back to the original position of Christians... yes, we believe that the Messiah is coming as do the Jews but the majority of today's Jews believe it will be his first coming while we believe it will be the second coming.

 

[rational experiences]

When Was the Bible Assembled? (learnreligions.com)

400 AD when data was compiled to make statements about his story.

Less of the son. Meaning lesson.

Males the status group/organization/control/coercion a history of all reasons. Male adult father self and his procreation return baby self son. Self idolisation inference by special orders owned and expressed by the human being male. What topic a lot of humans do not review. Status, self implied.

Now if you were living and life was attacked/irradiated in a known pre told cross of the seasons when pressure balances O God earth changed naturally. And science had been a known cause of activated natural disasters. Wouldn't a male in study and thesis/observation quote, what was revealed to me is mathematical. Only expressed by human males as inventors of its expression in the sciences?

The answer would be yes, as a total observed scientific human reality....science knowingly had changed the planetary core heart condition. The theme what science caused....and how life was sacrificed unnaturally.

If you care to read after the fact Moses assessment the theme is about the Father of science, the High Priests in Egypt owning the technology arguing. That water that travelled to those Temples and pyramids was being utilised in the science/conversion of God mass. And that the newly born baby, water returned to atmosphere by ice presence and ice melt/evaporation was travelling by change of law in that water.

How the theme, to advise that water got changed in nuclear conditions was preached.

It said that the female saved the life of the baby. Human reality, her ovary and her health personal to life body, and the male baby/child depended on a healthy ovary cell to survive.

Then quotes how babies began to be life sacrificed as medical reasons.

Life began to leave its HOLY LAND...which for human genetics is DNA that belongs by conditions to the land in which you live. Due to the desert sciences, as quoted.

The past information quotes...sink holes owned the Earth heavenly gases entering the radiation condition along with water x mass to cool those holes. The pit where Satan in Hell/sealed by stone as God angel fell into.

The status 40 years day and night of rain/flood had filled in the underground water cavities/tunnels.....quoted the loss of life in a 40 year water loss was the advice.

If you cared to reason logic and science advice to self that the condition HOLY WATER baptism had changed.

Bible Verses about 400 Years (cgg.org)

Reason for updating teaching and data historic compiled when changes were notified as correct.

 

[dybmh]

First you have to establish why you think that is part of the law. I never made any claim about John 14:13 -- you did. Why do you think it is relevant?

From my research, asking for something, anything in the name of Jesus instead of asking in the name of God is not allowed for a Jewish person under Jewish law.

I think it's relevant because it refutes your claim. See below:

Jesus simply fulfills the law (as believed by the Jewish people that have believed on Yeshua Ha'Mashiach) and so it is still Jewish in its entirety.

No. It is not Jewish in its entirety. What is described in John 14:13 is a violation of Jewish law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****uf

"****uf (Hebrew: שִׁתּוּף‎; also transliterated as ****tuf or schituf; literally "association") is a term used in Jewish sources for the worship of God in a manner which Judaism does not deem to be purely monotheistic. The term connotes a theology that is not outright polytheistic, but also should not be seen as purely monotheistic. The term is primarily used in reference to the Christian Trinity by Jewish legal authorities who wish to distinguish Christianity from full-blown polytheism. Though a Jew would be forbidden from maintaining a ****uf theology, non-Jews would, in some form, be permitted such a theology without being regarded as idolaters by Jews.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In Christian doctrine, Jesus was the messiah, and he died and supposedly was resurrected, and according to Christian lore, Jesus will come back again, hence the Second Coming.

Do Judaism support the idea of the Second Coming too in their messianic prophecies?

Or is simply Second Coming merely Christian thing?

Simple answer, it is merely a Christian thing.

Thus, if you ask Jews who holds by the Torah as Hashem gave it at Mount Sinai and all Torah based texts based on that source, in Hebrew/Aramaic, we all agree that the concept of a "messiah" as westerners understand it and the second coming concept is a Christian thing and is not based on Torath Mosheh/Torah based Judaism. Yet, if you ask Christians they will claim that both are Jewish and that they know better than we do.

At the end of the day, who is right? Well, an outsider to the topic could say the one who can prove their claim using ancient, authentic, and authoratative Jewish sources is.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In Christian doctrine, Jesus was the messiah, and he died and supposedly was resurrected, and according to Christian lore, Jesus will come back again, hence the Second Coming.

Do Judaism support the idea of the Second Coming too in their messianic prophecies?

Or is simply Second Coming merely Christian thing?

The following thread, though long, may help you understand the basis for the Torah based Jewish view of things.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

 

[Ehav4Ever]

A lot of things are far more clear to the outside observer

Only if they have a logical process of systematic observation. For example, think about how many outside observers come to incorrect conclusions about various disciplines of science.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In Christian doctrine, Jesus was the messiah, and he died and supposedly was resurrected, and according to Christian lore, Jesus will come back again, hence the Second Coming.

Do Judaism support the idea of the Second Coming too in their messianic prophecies?

Or is simply Second Coming merely Christian thing?

One more thing to add. If you really want to get to the heart of this topic present both sides with a Hebrew text (Judaism text) concerning the topic, in a format where they cannot use Google translate, and then ask them within a short amont of time to read such text from start to finish and translate it. Also, don't identify for either side what the text is and see who can answer for what states. For example, like this:

 

[Ehav4Ever]

At the risk of being (equally) tiresome, I
please note I wasn't suggesting an invariable,
or that anyone can be purely objective.

Yeah, but a topic like this you won't find that. It is similar to the debates that often take place Creationists and Athiest on evolution. It often ends being a bit one sided who actually understands the topic and the science around it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

My Master discourages the use of sarcasm, cynicism, irony
Question: Are those (generally) encouraged or discourages in your faith?

Greetings. There are a lot of concepts that have been taught throughout Jewish history. Because this topic has throughout history been at the expense of Jewish lives and resources in the attempt of Jews to either stay out of it or trying to prevent Jewish suffering by being brought into a topic for which we have no stake - one of the approaches developed is to answer a person in the way they understand best.

There are some who don't understand anything except sarcasm, cynicism, and irony. Thus, if that is all they can understand - not answering them at their level would cause un-needed stress and never fully draw attention to what they are lacking. I have personally met people who didn't understand the Torah based answer to these question until sarcasm, cynicism, and irony were introduced into the discussion. In the end, they were happy to have these introduced when it was the method they needed to understand the topic better and brought them to a better result than not doing so.

 

[rational experiences]

The statements of science. I became a slave to the Egyptian hierarchy for the building of the sciences. Later there is the Jewish community involved in the status of its use.

Would that be a claim that the Jewish Priest/sciences ignored as your own ancient Moses life warnings and then how health returned to a healthy male DNA life after having been physically removed from it and your owned namesake quoted, my Father the scientist did it to me claiming he was saving life from sin.

Ask yourself another honest human question do organizations in the sciences keep secrets so that they can continue a practice?

The answer should be obvious.

The stone philosophy in the past quoted a secret philosophy about how to obtain gold in a secret metallurgical process.

The theme ground dust fission related to when life was sacrificed in conjunction with a core Earth heart release of radiation. Where the gases once bound inside of mass disappear as a spirit body leaving empty holes. The status.

Ask science today how did you learn about ground fission. The obvious answer is science study of biblical information/alchemy and conversion.

If science quotes we might take most ownership of mass conversion in the machine reaction yet original activation point was always with the planet mass itself as God. Which would place a small energy/radiation ground reaction being involved in the attack/sacrifice of life, by the light gases owning life support having fallen out of the heavenly mass above our heads on fire.

How life was sacrificed. And God the Earth owned the reactive causes.

Meanwhile the scientist with his machine would argue that it was not his fault, God did it would be his claim. So science told science that PHI had sacrificed life and it was given in the signs (upon the ground).

The relativity, as above so below.

A reactive conversion to a huge energy mass to destroy it to own a converting state to gain what is left, would then equal the same small reactive equal status as an effect atmospheric fall out as relative scientific advice equals cause.

Gain electricity as a small amount of energy left, would equal a radiation equals, seeing radiation is the mass being applied to convert. Radiation as an effect is a higher mass of gases burning, in an already small presence of energy as compared to actual physical mass energy.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It is interesting that we don't hear much about Jewish Hindu's, Jewish Buddhists and even atheists... but when it comes to the Jewish Yeshua, there seems to be a problem.

Jewish Attitudes Toward Eastern Religions | My Jewish Learning

Why do you think that is?

The reason is very simple. A Jew who turns away from Torath Mosheh for Avodah Zara for his/her own sake is one thing and there is a lot of attention given to help those Jews return. Yet, none of those paths have had the history (approximately 1,800 years worth of it) that Jesus/Yeshua beleivers have of trying to force Torah based and non-Torah Jews to become Jesus/Yeshua beleivers or the history of unsavory methods to try and fool Jews into becoming Jesus/Yeshua beleivers.

Also, I have not met any Hindu's, Jewish Buddhists and even atheists who claim that what they do is derived from the Hebrew Tanakh. Thus, the level of misleading information is often the greatest from Jews who have become Jesus/Yeshua beleivers and also Christians who have specific goals of missionizing to Jews as their focus.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You mean “fulfilling” the prophecies, not the laws.

Laws aren’t fulfilled unless you are referring to laws being legislated/codified/ratified/enacted/enforced, or upheld in court trials.

The laws and prophecies are two different things.

The Torah (Law) and Nevi’im (Prophets) are two of the 3 divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures or Tanakh...or Old Testament Bible. The central tenets of Judaism is the Torah.

The laws were already codified by Moses, so saying that Jesus “fulfilled” the law seemed rather odd and misleading to me, because he has never pass or codified any law.

Exactly. But to take this even further consider the following. Where in the Torah, in Hebrew, is there ever a statement that equates to "this is how the law is fulfilled." Because, the word "law" as expressed in the NT is not what the word (תורה) Torah means in Hebrew one can say that when Christians and Messianics are saying "law" they are conceptionally not talking about the same thing as when a Torah based Jew says Torah.

This video may help in understanding this historically.

 

[Audie]

Yeah, but a topic like this you won't find that. It is similar to the debates that often take place Creationists and Athiest on evolution. It often ends being a bit one sided who actually understands the topic and the science around it.

Uh, ok...but I find i often know the Bible better than do Christians i talk to.
And you cannot possibly look at it objectively as a believer raised in it.

And as for evolution, I have never anywhere found a creationist who. Is not utterly clueless.

There is an paleontologist, PhD and al, who is a yec. Dr. K Wise.

He openly admits to total intellectual
dishonesty, that no data could ever change
his belief ib yes.

So yeah, one sided but maybe not in the way
you were thinking?