It would be irrelevant to messianic status. Of course, this is also based on the assumption that it was god that brought him back to life, besides for the assumption that he did in fact come back to life in the first place.
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Judaism vs Christianity: Second Coming of Messiah
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
rosends
Well-Known Member
Sure it is a potayto potahto case -- you say one thing is a lie, I say another is. And as for the claim that there were many witnesses, I won't even get into the textual question about who actually saw the supposed resurrection, and stick with "if you believe the gospels at all, which I don't."
I don't know what law you have in mind which would accept spurious takes of the supernatural at a trial. Maybe one in the already biased world of the gospels, but not one in reality.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Nevertheless if you thought God brought Jesus back to life that would be relevant to whom Jesus is.
If you believed the witness of those who saw the resurrected Jesus it would be relevant.
It might change your whole view of what the Messianic prophecies are and say.
But you believe something else happened.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That sounds like a denial of the supernatural,,,,,,,,,,,,,,from a Jew whose beliefs are based in the supernatural and based on the supernatural.
In the Law of Moses the witness of 2 or 3 witnesses establishes a crime and I imagine establishes anything. That is one reason why the trial of Jesus in the Sanhedrin was a mock trial, the witnesses did not agree in their testimony.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, it is denial of the authenticity and authority of the gospels. The law of witnesses is significantly more complex than you understand, by the way and the oral law recounts events in which many witnesses supernatural events and that didn't change and legal minds. So please don't make claims about Judaism if you don't actually understand the Jewish legal method.
It would show God thought he was worth being brought back. Why does that necessarily show he's the messiah?
Brian2
Veteran Member
The resurrection was central to the gospel message from the start, a long time before the gospel accounts were written.
The Gospel does not get to redefine what makes the Messiah.
Brian2
Veteran Member
It was in the Messianic prophecies. Isa 53 for example is a prophecy which has been seen by Jews in the past as Messianic.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Psalm 89 tells of the Jewish rejection of the Messiah and killing Him.
Isa 53 tells of the Messiah's death and resurrection and why He died.
Psalm 89 and Psalm 2 tells us the Messiah is the Son of God and will rule the nations.
These aren't in the gospel story, that is just what I see from what Jesus did and reading the Hebrew scriptures.
Isa 9 is about the Messiah who will rule forever on the throne of David.
It is plain that these are about the same person who called God His Father and gave His life as a ransom for us and was resurrected and then the Word of God went from Jerusalem (Isa 2:3) so that this Messiah could also be a light and salvation for the Gentiles.(Isa 49:6).
Then He will come back to judge the nations and rule on David's throne forever and save the Jews from destruction and bring peace to the world and the Jews will see that the Messiah was Jesus all along (Zech 12)
It's plain to me but not to you.
The Messiah is the one who came for the salvation of all humans and to destroy Satan and his works after the initial fall of humans. (Gen 3:15)
rosends
Well-Known Member
the son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Kgs 17:17-24);
the son of the Shunammite matron (2 Kgs 4:31-37)
the corpse thrown into the prophet’s grave; when it comes into contact with one of his bones, the man returns to life (2 Kgs 13:20-21).
all must be messiahs, then.
Resurrection was never part of the Jewish messianic concept. It was reverse engineered in by Christian thinkers who "found" it in Jewish texts because they needed to find something to justify their belief system.
By misquoting, misinterpreting and misunderstanding, all sorts of false conclusions are reached.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Why? Resurrection is just one of the prophecies.
Brian2
Veteran Member
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I take it you mean psalm 89.
The 'you' here is referring to HaShem.
It's a Servant Song about Israel and Christians go to it so often I think it betrays a lack of understanding the whole book of Isaiah.
It reflects a 'Christian' interpretation of Isaiah, along with, unfortunately, the majority of Hebrew Scripture which ought to be understood first of all within itself.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, it is something you think is a prophecy. Strangely, Jews (the ones who have had these texts for a while now) don't think resurrection is part of the deal at all. In Psalm 89, for example, the text speaks of the loss of the kingship from the Davidic line after the days of Tzikiyahu. It is that entire dynasty which will be restored in messianic times. This is not bout resurrection of a specific person. But somehow, people outside of the tradition in which that text was introduced know better.
You trying to copy my typos?
Merely for the benefit of this conversation, let's ignore the whole context of Isaiah and his terminology and say that supposedly, yes, ch. 53 is messianic. Where is this figure dying? Where is he resurrecting? I'm not seeing it.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Thanks for that, it makes sense.
Christians do see Isaiah in a different light. We see that the prophecies there can have more than one meaning at times, and the more literal meaning can apply to the Messiah.
In Isa 49:5,6 we can see the Messiah. How can Israel be the servant to restore the tribes of Jacob?
I think a problem Jews have is that Isaiah was commissioned by God to blind and deafen Israel so that it does not see and hear and turn to be healed. (Isa 6:9,10)
This probably applies to writings outside of Isaiah also. Ps 89 could have a double meaning for example and the Jews just see one meaning.