Judaism's answer to Jesus and Muhammad

[Kemble]

Interesting video by an orthodox rabbi getting asked a question about Islam and Christianity - the difference between private revelations and public revelations.

If I understand correctly, Christianity's response to the claim of trying to universalize the covenant is that God abandoned the Jews and changed his mind. Islam in addition to the same idea claims the Jewish prophets were really Muslims and the Jews just altered the message. Both seem to be trying to dodge the observation that the messages of both Christianity and Islam run counter to the original message believed to have been given at Mount Sinai to thousands of witnesses. Which makes sense given the rabbi's analogy of the Christian/Islamic message as God proclaiming one message on the mountain and whispering another behind it. Here is an article that goes into detail: Did God Speak at Sinai?

Here's the video. Thoughts?

[youtube]TuNQydNrENQ[/youtube]

 

[dantech]

Christianity isn't monolithic in belief, at all, to the extent that you can't compare "Christianity" and this supposed belief in 'abandonment of the Jews' or whatever to another religion.

I worship Jesus as God, the OP doesn't even apply to my beliefs, for instance




cheers

Can I ask, how you got to the point were Jesus became God? The original theory was that he was the messiah, and the original believers were all Jews who knew that there could be no other God and that God has no shape or form, so Jesus could not be God, according to these beliefs.
I have my issues of him even being a messiah, but I could at least understand how Christianity got there. But to say that he was God is very difficult for me to understand. Especially knowing that he died. How could you accept for your God to have any negative points. If he was really God, and this was actually his plan, wouldn't it be very easy for him to come on earth and send his message to 100% of the population without having to be denied by so many and actually getting killed for it?

I'm not trying to be insulting even though it may seem like it. I'm just trying to get educated a bit on this particular subject.

 

[Assad91]

The Islamic point is that the prophets were muslim in the way they submitted to God. Not that they werent Hebrew nor were they not following Judaism. Yes people altered scripture, not just the Hebrew scritures but also gospels.

Now I dont think any christian, nor muslim thinks God abandoned the Jews. In Quran Allah/God says that the Jews and Christians will be judged according to their actions and the revelations they had.

 

[F0uad]

What i think about the video.. A typical a idiot who is preaching other idiots who are all ignorant about Islam and spreads lies.

 

[F0uad]

I'm not spreading lies.

I was talking about the person in the video and can you please leave me alone i asked this a couple of times already..

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm not trying to be insulting even though it may seem like it. I'm just trying to get educated a bit on this particular subject.

So you don't believe one can worship Jesus as the representation of God and still worship God? I do. This is why I have no theological problems with the Catholic church, really.

 

[Kemble]

The Islamic point is that the prophets were muslim in the way they submitted to God. Not that they werent Hebrew nor were they not following Judaism. Yes people altered scripture, not just the Hebrew scritures but also gospels.

Now I dont think any christian, nor muslim thinks God abandoned the Jews. In Quran Allah/God says that the Jews and Christians will be judged according to their actions and the revelations they had.

About the first point, any evidence that the Torah was corrupted? Second point: what changed God's mind to make the covenant universal? Also if that was the case, why was it done through secret, private revelations?

 

[Desert Snake]

@Dantech

I think this is backed by the teachings in the Torah/Tanach also, though in some cases the Ketuvim according to Judaism, still evidenced throughout the Bible.

 

[F0uad]

About the first point, any evidence that the Torah was corrupted? Second point: what changed God's mind to make the covenant universal? Also if that was the case, why was it done through secret, private revelations?

1. There is no proof that the Torah is preserved moreover the Torah mentions Moses(pbuh) speaking when he is considered to be dead so how we can claim that Moses(pbuh) wrote or uttered those words.

2. Were are the testimonies of these people who witnessed or heard God speak? So because a verse says that some people heard God speak therefore its true?

3. Muslims only belief that Mohammed's(saws) message was meant to be universal since he is considered to be the last one that of Jesus(pbuh) and Moses(pbuh) was only meant for the people in there time.

4. Moses(pbuh) was not the only prophet/messenger according to scripture and teachings, moreover Moses(pbuh) also received private revelation on many occasions.


Ps: i find it disturbing how the so called "Rabi" misinforms hes audience about Prophet Mohammed(saws) to just make the Muslims look bad.

 

[Caladan]

Not a fan of Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak, but at 6:00 he makes a bloody good point, which I'm dumbfounded I haven't contemplated enough about.
If during the standing at Sinai, God revealed himself to crowds of people, to an entire nation. How is it even possible that thousands of years later he revealed a new message to singular people who hid in the desert or in a cave.

 

[Kemble]

Not a fan of Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak, but at 6:00 he makes a bloody good point, which I'm dumbfounded I haven't contemplated enough about.
If during the standing at Sinai, God revealed himself to crowds of people, to an entire nation. How is it even possible that thousands of years later he revealed a new message to singular people who hid in the desert or in a cave.

Hah, it really makes one scratch their head doesn't it.

 

[Caladan]

Hah, it really makes one scratch their head doesn't it.

Absolutely. It is a fatal blow to hundreds of years in which Christians and Muslims dreamed up creative replacement theologies. They have been trying to undermine the theological ethos of a nation while basing their own theology off of this nation's traditions and theology. Only their prophets claimed they had new revelations while meditating in a cave. Curious indeed.

 

[arthra]

Watched the video... It struck me that it seemed like a revivalist style.. but anyway one thing the Rabbi said that I would disagree with and that is that he implied or said that the Qur'an was written by a Jew and Muhammad had him killed after that. I don't think there's any evidence or basis for this claim.

True.. I'd accept that Moses received the law on Mount Sinai.. and what people saw or witnessed was among them. However Moses earlier encounter was in the desert of Midian and it took the form of a "burning bush". Moses was also alone ... as far as other people around Him. Jesus baptism in the Jordon was by John and the spirit descended like a dove on Him.. The encounter of Muhammad at Mount HIra was with the form of the angel Gabriel.

In my belief these were all universal manifestations of God and represent the fulfillment of the covenant promises from ancient times.

 

[Caladan]

True.. I'd accept that Moses received the law on Mount Sinai.. and what people saw or witnessed was among them. However Moses earlier encounter was in the desert of Midian and it took the form of a "burning bush". Moses was also alone ... as far as other people around Him.

Not surprising to see the New Testament writers use the same idea of personal desert tribulations centuries later, as Moses is a central figure in Judaism. Moreover, guess who is the most prominent person in the Qur'an? that's right, Moses. So it's not hard to see where the inspiration for these stories comes from.

 

[Kemble]

2. Were are the testimonies of these people who witnessed or heard God speak? So because a verse says that some people heard God speak therefore its true?

Hah ya habibi, the Quran testifies to the event and the Torah's authority (2:63 - God raised Mount Sinai in front of the Jewish people, the same as in Babylonian Talmud Shabbath 88a, 20:80 - when God spoke to the "Children of Israel", 45:16, 2:92, 2:84-85). That's already a given.

In fact there is a good argument that tahrif originally meant that the Jews and Christians misunderstand their scriptures, but the actual written books are infallible: Islam teaches the Torah is corrupted / tahrif, but what does that mean? | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam

Quoting from that page:

In the words of Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi:

"In classical Arabic, this word [tahrif] can either mean “alteration” (in the text), or “misinterpretation” (in the sense). While most of contemporary Muslim propagandists take only the first possible meaning into consideration, plenty of authoritative scholars of old (including Imam al-Ghazali and Shaykh Muhiddin Ibn ‘Arabi) prefer the second one, and support their point of view through ahadith which are universally accepted as authentic. According to one of them, the Prophet Muhammad asked the Jews of Medina to bring their Torah Scroll and to read from it to confirm a verdict (and the argument is “were that Scroll adulterated, the Prophet would have never judged on its base&#8221. According to another hadith, he met Jews who were bringing a Torah Scroll in procession, kissed the Scroll and said “amantu bika wa amantu bima fik” (I believe in you and in yours contents). The argument here is “were that Scroll adulterated, the Prophet would have never said ‘I believe in your contents’.”. As a Muslim scholar, I think that showing all these and other legal proof in Islam is the best way to lead Muslims to recognize the Divine character of the Torah as the Jews have it today."

 

[Desert Snake]

Not surprising to see the New Testament writers use the same idea of personal desert tribulations centuries later, as Moses is a central figure in Judaism. Moreover, guess who is the most prominent person in the Qur'an? that's right, Moses. So it's not hard to see where the inspiration for these stories comes from.

Well, they're Abrahamic religions, so no contradiction there. Inspiration from the Moses narrative is hardly condemning.

 

[Kemble]

Well, they're Abrahamic religions, so no contradiction there. Inspiration from the Moses narrative is hardly condemning.

I do find it a little problematic that the original message seems to have been a unique covenant with the Jewish people, yet a few folks claiming revelations years later with an opposite message claim authenticity. If it is an authentic revelation from God, at least stick with the continuing narrative, or at least make the "change of mind" a public announcement like the first one.

 

[Caladan]

Well, they're Abrahamic religions, so no contradiction there. Inspiration from the Moses narrative is hardly condemning.

What I find more condemning is basing entire dogmas on the Jewish Bible, the Jewish Talmud, or Midrash and then when most Jews don't accept the upgrade, to fashion a replacement theology in which Jews are the eternal deicide. Somehow the followers of a new revelation received a 2.0 Israelite religion.
It's no surprise that Christianity and Islam's pool of theological inspiration is Jewish and Hebrew literature, while I don't necessarily find it condemning (your term), I find it the source of many themes in the gospels and the Qur'an, especially when the first designated crowd of both Jesus and Muhammad were Jews.

 

[Kemble]

There are too many Christian vs Muslim debates, but unfortunately I hardly see Jews take on Islam that much. But I found another one: here is Rabbi Yosi Mizrachi on why he thinks the Quran is man made (I really want to know more about the Quran's mixing of the two Mariams):

[youtube]d8veCdgVCqg[/youtube]

 

[Levite]

Interesting video by an orthodox rabbi getting asked a question about Islam and Christianity - the difference between private revelations and public revelations.

If I understand correctly, Christianity's response to the claim of trying to universalize the covenant is that God abandoned the Jews and changed his mind. Islam in addition to the same idea claims the Jewish prophets were really Muslims and the Jews just altered the message. Both seem to be trying to dodge the observation that the messages of both Christianity and Islam run counter to the original message believed to have been given at Mount Sinai to thousands of witnesses. Which makes sense given the rabbi's analogy of the Christian/Islamic message as God proclaiming one message on the mountain and whispering another behind it. Here is an article that goes into detail: Did God Speak at Sinai?

Here's the video. Thoughts?

Leaving aside for the moment the question of whether Judaism needs to "answer" Christianity and Islam past simply understanding them as non-Jewish religions that, while they may be fine for non-Jews, are not acceptable Jewish beliefs (and the question of, if such an "answer" is needed, what it might be); it is worth noting that Amnon Yitzchak is a fundamentalist demagogue, the worst sort of far-right-wing religious zealot and xenophobe.

I would take nothing he says any more seriously than most Christians would take Terry Jones, that jack-a** pastor who burns Qurans and stuff. Frankly, even if Amnon Yitzchak told me that water were wet, I'd want to double check for myself.