Judaism's answer to Jesus and Muhammad

[F0uad]

Hah ya habibi, the Quran testifies to the event and the Torah's authority (2:63 - God raised Mount Sinai in front of the Jewish people, the same as in Babylonian Talmud Shabbath 88a, 20:80 - when God spoke to the "Children of Israel", 45:16, 2:92, 2:84-85). That's already a given.

In fact there is a good argument that tahrif originally meant that the Jews and Christians misunderstand their scriptures, but the actual written books are infallible: Islam teaches the Torah is corrupted / tahrif, but what does that mean? | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam

Quoting from that page:

Ok you got me.. you know Islam much better then the rest of the world ill let you represent Islam for us ok?

 

[Kemble]

Imran in this verse, is the name of Mary's father it's not about the father of Moses.
Nowhere in the Bible it says that his name is Joachim. (only in apocryphal)
So for us, Imran is the real name of the father of Mary.

Exactly like the sister of Moses' genealogy. What a coincidence.

 

[F0uad]

Other than the Jew writing the Koran, what did you perceive as lies from what he said?
Whether it's true or wrong doesn't really matter or change his argument in any way. That was just a side note from his part.

That "Side-Note" is very offensive and there is no historian or scholar who claims such things so its a fabricated lie.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Islamic point is that the prophets were muslim in the way they submitted to God. Not that they werent Hebrew nor were they not following Judaism. Yes people altered scripture, not just the Hebrew scritures but also gospels.

Now I dont think any christian, nor muslim thinks God abandoned the Jews. In Quran Allah/God says that the Jews and Christians will be judged according to their actions and the revelations they had.

Yes, it would be more like the Jews abandoning God.

 

[dantech]

That "Side-Note" is very offensive and there is no historian or scholar who claims such things so its a fabricated lie.

That's fine. I agree with you. But it plays no role in his argument, does it?

 

[Kemble]

I guess, leaving aside his zealot flourishes, my main feeling is still that this kind of polemical debating is simply antique, the useless relic of a time long passed. Thank God, most Jews today live in free countries, where we are not obliged to justify ourselves and our beliefs to anyone; and in less than free countries, we are able to understand that the demand for such justification is itself unjust and unwarranted.

I don't believe in Jesus' messiahdom or godhead, and I don't believe in Muhammad's prophecy, but I also cannot and will not deny that many thousands or even millions of non-Jews are able to take Christianity and Islam and make them into paths toward holiness, toward connecting to God.

So my only issue with those faiths lies in the occasions when Christians (more commonly) or Muslims (more rarely) actively confront Jews or inveigle them, attempting to convince them that Judaism is flawed and wrong, and that they (the Jews) are better served by apostasizing to one of the newer religions. That kind of behavior is unacceptable; but the mere fact that part of those religions involves claims impugning Jewish tradition or Torah to one degree or another is not enough to make me wish to waste my time trying to play musical polemics. I am content to simply be able to wish non-Jews well in their efforts to please God and live holier lives, and to understand that along with their good intentions and their sincere yearning for the divine come certain mistakes about God and the Jewish People; but so long as they let us alone, those mistakes are really none of our business, since people are entitled to believe what they please.

Great answer. I do recognize the legitimacy of spiritual experiences whether or not the theology is off/inauthentic. I do have a question: if Christianity and Islam are co-options of Judaism, wrong theologically, and Gentiles want to worship the original monotheistic God, wouldn't a Jew rather see correct worship and suggest conversion rather than see someone carry on with a botched, "twisted' Judaism?

 

[F0uad]

That's fine. I agree with you. But it plays no role in his argument, does it?

What about the other prophets that Jews also belief in did they get public revelation?
What about the occasions were Moses(pbuh) got it privately?
Is there any testimony in existence of these people that they did hear him?
So because one verse says so is it therefore true?

Moreover the notion itself is no argument i don't see any connection whatsoever that has to do with the credibility of Mohammed(saws) or Jesus(pbuh).

 

[Flankerl]

If my prophet was sitting in a cave and then supposedly received the new message i would probably be silent about such matters like private revelations.

 

[dantech]

What about the other prophets that Jews also belief in did they get public revelation?

Other prophets prophecised on the future and stuff that would happen, but not on laws that would define how Jews are supposed to live, as opposed to Moses who did give us the laws that we need to live by during our lives.

What about the occasions were Moses(pbuh) got it privately?

It got confirmed by God himself during the public revelation. He wouldn't reveal himself to the whole population, using Moses, if Moses wasn't the person He wanted representing him.

Is there any testimony in existence of these people that they did hear him?
So because one verse says so is it therefore true?

one verse where? Torah or Koran? To me, if it is in the Torah, it is true. To you, if it is in the Koran, then I assume you consider it true. Whether it be written one time or a million times, they are both true to us.
So yes, because one verse says so, it is indeed true. If you don't believe that your Koran's text is true, then I don't think we have anything to argue about.

Moreover the notion itself is no argument i don't see any connection whatsoever that has to do with the credibility of Mohammed(saws) or Jesus(pbuh).

You don't see a credibility issue in one person saying he got a revelation with no witness, opposed to one who had millions?

 

[Caladan]

Christianity and Islam are actually different religions from Judaism

They most certainly are. But their pool of resources is Judaism. Without the Hebrew scriptures and centuries of Jewish existence and traditions, gentiles would not have become Christian and the pagans of Arabia would not have become Muslim.

 

[Kemble]

They most certainly are. But their pool of resources is Judaism. Without the Hebrew scriptures and centuries of Jewish existence and traditions, gentiles would not have become Christian and the pagans of Arabia would not have become Muslim.

The insideous thing about it I think is hijacking the originators' theology and trashing the legitimate, original expression. Technically Christianity and Islam really are "Judaism lite" because they take away most of the original observances and responsibilities, essentially making it Judaism made easy for everyone.

 

[Pastek]

Wasn't he a carpenter, or craftsman, or handyman, or something of the sorts?

Who ?

 

[Desert Snake]

They most certainly are. But their pool of resources is Judaism. Without the Hebrew scriptures and centuries of Jewish existence and traditions, gentiles would not have become Christian and the pagans of Arabia would not have become Muslim.

Only in the sense that Jesus was Jewish and Mohammad was middle eastern, the religious teachings themselves, or at least what became doctrine was/is different to the point that the resources being utilized are being utilized because of circumstance, in this instance geography and in the case of Christianity ethnicity/culture.

So, although your statement would be true for the 'original ides' (somewhat), for the religions, I wouldn't presume that Islam or Christianity is overly interested in Jewish traditions etc., theologically speaking.

 

[allright]

1.

Were are the testimonies of these people who witnessed or heard God speak? So because a verse says that some people heard God speak therefore its true?

You mean because Mohammed said an angel spoke to him that makes it true?

 

[Desert Snake]

Can I ask, how you got to the point were Jesus became God? The original theory was that he was the messiah, and the original believers were all Jews who knew that there could be no other God and that God has no shape or form, so Jesus could not be God, according to these beliefs.
I have my issues of him even being a messiah, but I could at least understand how Christianity got there.

I'm not a "Christian", so you'd have to ask people who would find those questions relevant to their beliefs.
As to the original concept of the OP, it would be the Jews abandoning God not the other way around.

 

[Desert Snake]

In my belief these were all universal manifestations of God and represent the fulfillment of the covenant promises from ancient times.

I just accept that others believe this and who am I to question their beliefs?

 

[Kemble]

As to the original concept of the OP, it would be the Jews abandoning God not the other way around.

There is no evidence they have. It's the other folks claiming it to legitimize their contrary revelations.

 

[dantech]

As to the original concept of the OP, it would be the Jews abandoning God not the other way around.

This depends on the point of view. To Jesus believers, Jews abandoned God. To Jews, Christians are ex-Jews who abandoned God. No point on arguing on this particular point.

 

[FearGod]

Interesting video by an orthodox rabbi getting asked a question about Islam and Christianity - the difference between private revelations and public revelations.

If I understand correctly, Christianity's response to the claim of trying to universalize the covenant is that God abandoned the Jews and changed his mind. Islam in addition to the same idea claims the Jewish prophets were really Muslims and the Jews just altered the message. Both seem to be trying to dodge the observation that the messages of both Christianity and Islam run counter to the original message believed to have been given at Mount Sinai to thousands of witnesses. Which makes sense given the rabbi's analogy of the Christian/Islamic message as God proclaiming one message on the mountain and whispering another behind it. Here is an article that goes into detail: Did God Speak at Sinai?

Here's the video. Thoughts?

[youtube]TuNQydNrENQ[/youtube]

That Rabbi claiming that Jesus and Mohammed (peace be upon them) were liars simply because both of them received god's message in secret whereas Moses PBUH received it in the open air with millions had witnessed it,as he claimed.

if that story is true that god had spoke in public then why Pharoah didn't hear god's voice !!!!!

Exodus 2:15
When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well.

Exodus 6:12
But Moses said to the Lord, “If the Israelites will not listen to me, why would Pharaoh listen to me, since I speak with faltering lips?”

Exodus 8:1
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me.

Exodus 10:28
Pharaoh said to Moses, “Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die.”

Exodus 11:9
The Lord had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.”

The story of Moses PBUH and Pharoah according to the quran.

[youtube]mbggjYExIYE[/youtube]
Scientific Miracles Of The Holy Quran - Preservation of pharaoh's body in the time of Moses - YouTube

 

[dantech]

That Rabbi claiming that Jesus and Mohammed (peace be upon them) were liars simply because both of them received god's message in secret whereas Moses PBUH received it in the open air with millions had witnessed it,as he claimed.

if that story is true that god had spoke in public then why Pharoah didn't hear god's voice !!!!!

Exodus 2:15
When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well.

Exodus 6:12
But Moses said to the Lord, “If the Israelites will not listen to me, why would Pharaoh listen to me, since I speak with faltering lips?”

Exodus 8:1
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me.

Exodus 10:28
Pharaoh said to Moses, “Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die.”

Exodus 11:9
The Lord had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.”

The story of Moses PBUH and Pharoah according to the quran.

[youtube]mbggjYExIYE[/youtube]
Scientific Miracles Of The Holy Quran - Preservation of pharaoh's body in the time of Moses - YouTube

God spoke to the Children of Israel 40 years after having already left Egypt. Moses was no longer in contact with Pharaoh...