Judaism's answer to Jesus and Muhammad

[Kemble]

Thats exactly what i had said

(( in judgement day if you'll be asked by the creator "was you a muslim to me or a jew",your answer will be "i don't have such honor to be referred to you,but i have the honor to be a jew.

if he asked you " Are you a muslim to god",then you'll say "no i aint.i am a jew" ))

Yes i think you'll refuse to be called muslim to god because of bigatory reasons whereas the word muslim is to god and not for any nationality or tribe.

So if i ask you now are you a muslim (Submitted) for Elohim.

then i am waiting for your answer by yes or no.

FearGod, no. You are trying to conflate a verb with a noun. Not only does "muslim" mean to submit, it is a follower of an entirely different religious movement. What you are trying to do is get dantech to admit that he is "muslim" by submission, the title becomes synonymous with the Muslim movement, and it is one foot near "why not follow islam?" Honestly, a question: do you then believe Jews are Muslims? And in Judgemet Day, they get the same treatment? Again, I think you are using the same tactic Muhammad used to answer the fact that his revelations countered the Torah message. By claiming everyone submits, they are muslims, that he also submits, is also a "muslim," then he has the real religious message and legitimate prophethood. Fact is he was a Gentile, outside the covenant, brought a foreign message, and was really outside the entire prophetic stream to begin with. So in reality, in contemporary understandings, Jews are not Muslims.

 

[FearGod]

You may want to lay off the theology, the conspiracy stuff, and youtube a bit and dig into the academic literature. Check out some books out there by Geza Vermes, one of the best in the field, as a start.

Why Geza Vermes ?

Do you think that the others were ignorants ?

it is up to you to believe who you like to believe and it is up to me to believe whom i like to believe.

Well trust me, with the contemporary arab world saying the Jews kill and mock their prophets everywhere in the media and with little care for evidence to back it up nor real dialogue with Jews, this thread is nothing. Anyway what this thread is about is to get some thinking going on with regards to history and evidence procedure. Faith is still perfectly valid in eliciting spiritual experience, so if a Christian or Muslim still wishes to have faith in their prophets, that's fine. No one said not to. And if the Jews are right, you aren't going to get tossed in Hell for it (very unlike the Gentile idea of a power-hungry sadist God).

So i understand you don't found the video to be offensive,and i wasn't offensive too.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well trust me, with the contemporary arab world saying the Jews kill and mock their prophets everywhere in the media and with little care for evidence to back it up nor real dialogue with Jews, this thread is nothing. Anyway what this thread is about is to get some thinking going on with regards to history and evidence procedure. Faith is still perfectly valid in eliciting spiritual experience, so if a Christian or Muslim still wishes to have faith in their prophets, that's fine. No one said not to. And if the Jews are right, you aren't going to get tossed in Hell for it (very unlike the Gentile idea of a power-hungry sadist God).

Jesus wasn't a Prophet, which Christian Prophets are you referring to?

 

[Kemble]

it is up to you to believe who you like to believe and it is up to me to believe whom i like to believe.

There ain't no such thing as relativism in academia.

 

[FearGod]

FearGod, no. You are trying to conflate a verb with a noun. Not only does "muslim" mean to submit, it is a follower of an entirely different religious movement. What you are trying to do is get dantech to admit that he is "muslim" by submission, the title becomes synonymous with the Muslim movement, and it is one foot near "why not follow islam?" Honestly, a question: do you then believe Jews are Muslims? And in Judgemet Day, they get the same treatment? Again, I think you are using the same tactic Muhammad used to answer the fact that his revelations countered the Torah message. By claiming everyone submits, they are muslims, that he also submits, is also a "muslim," then he has the real religious message. Fact is he was a Gentile, outside the covenant, brought a foreign message, and was really outside the entire prophetic stream to begin with.

No i didn't mean Islam as a religion but as our direct relation with God.

So once again you are saying that Mohammed PBUH was hustler by using the word muslim for a dirty purpose as to pursuade the others and then the word muslim will do the magic and will let all the globe to be muslims.

Do you think you make any sense by such nonsense ?

 

[Desert Snake]

No i didn't mean Islam as a religion but as our direct relation with God.

So once again you are saying that Mohammed PBUH was hustler by using the word muslim for a dirty purpose as to pursuade the others and then the word muslim will do the magic and will let all the globe to be muslims.

Do you think you make any sense by such nonsense ?

If one is bigoted against Islam or Christianity everything becomes evidence to the falseness of these religions, it's a kneejerk confirmation bias position, that's why rational arguments seldom work in these cases. :/

 

[FearGod]

There ain't no such thing as relativism in academia.

That is history and we aren't talking about scientific equations and formulas.

if you are very interested on historical findings then you should believe this one too.

[youtube]mbggjYExIYE[/youtube]
Scientific Miracles Of The Holy Quran - Preservation of pharaoh's body in the time of Moses - YouTube

 

[Kemble]

Here's another look at that if you're interested: The Quran on the Preservation of Pharaoh

That stuff ISN'T academia, by the way.

 

[FearGod]

Here's another look at that if you're interested: The Quran on the Preservation of Pharaoh

That stuff ISN'T academia, by the way.

Yes thats not academia but just an elementary school.

then where did i say academia,i said historical findings.

Please read well before making your comments.

 

[Kemble]

Yes thats not academia but just an elementary school.

then where did i say academia,i said historical findings.

Please read well before making your comments.

Haha, Ok, let's see, (I highlighted the important part in red) from the link I gave:

Second, the story of Pharaoh's repentance at the face of destruction, along with the preservation of his body, was not a new revelation. Both the Holy Bible and the Jewish Talmud documented this story long before the Quran was ever compiled:

“The water flowed back and covered the chariots and horsemen - the entire army of Pharaoh that had followed the Israelites into the sea. Not one of them survived. But the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left. That day the LORD saved Israel from the hands of the Egyptians, and Israel saw THE EGYPTIANS LYING DEAD ON THE SHORE. And when the Israelites saw the great power the LORD displayed against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD and put their trust in him and in Moses his servant.” Exodus 14:28-30

That this included Pharaoh can be seen from the following passage:

"To him who divided the Red Sea asunder His love endures forever. And brought Israel through the midst of it, His love endures forever. But swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea; His love endures forever." Psalm 136:13-15

We are further told in the Talmud:

“Perceive the great power of repentance! Pharaoh, king of Egypt, uttered very wicked words — ‘Who is the god whose voice I shall obey?’ (Exod. 5:2). Yet as he repented, saying, ‘Who is like unto thee among the gods?’ (Exod. 15:2). God saved him from death; for it saith; Almost had I stretched out my hands and destroyed; but God let him live, that he might declare his power and strength.” (Pirke Rabbi Elieser, xliii; Midrash Yalkut, ccxxxviii, as cited in T.P. Hughes, Dictionary of Islam [Kazi Publications Inc., Chicago Il. 1994], p. 241; bold emphasis ours)

The late Muslim scholar Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi concedes the fact that the Quranic story of the drowning of the Pharaoh in Q. 10:90-92 actually finds parallels in the Talmud:

“… Though this is not mentioned in the Bible, it is explicitly recorded in the Talmud in the following words: 'Who is like Thee, O Lord, among the gods?’” (Towards Understanding the Qur'an - Volume IV, Surahs 10-16, an English translation of Tafhim al-Qur'an by Zafar Ishaq, assisted by A.R. Kidwai [The Islamic Foundation (printed and bound in Great Britain by the Cromwell Press), rpt. 1999], p. 63, fn. 91; bold emphasis ours)

Hence, Muhammadan logic would force us to conclude that God revealed the Talmud to the rabbis since they knew of Pharaoh's body being preserved even before the Quran was written!

 

[FearGod]

If one is bigoted against Islam or Christianity everything becomes evidence to the falseness of these religions, it's a kneejerk confirmation bias position, that's why rational arguments seldom work in these cases. :/

Yes exactly,its like saying a programmed rejection for anything to be Christian or Muslim.

 

[F0uad]

Other prophets prophecised on the future and stuff that would happen, but not on laws that would define how Jews are supposed to live, as opposed to Moses who did give us the laws that we need to live by during our lives.

Well you agree that Prophets have a connection with a higher deity so you accept the fact that Prophets or Messengers do not need a "Public revelation". Mohammed(saws) also gave us a law..

It got confirmed by God himself during the public revelation. He wouldn't reveal himself to the whole population, using Moses, if Moses wasn't the person He wanted representing him.

This is just dodging the point i was raising.

one verse where? Torah or Koran? To me, if it is in the Torah, it is true. To you, if it is in the Koran, then I assume you consider it true. Whether it be written one time or a million times, they are both true to us.
So yes, because one verse says so, it is indeed true. If you don't believe that your Koran's text is true, then I don't think we have anything to argue about.

So you have no historical evidence for this nor any testimony?

You don't see a credibility issue in one person saying he got a revelation with no witness, opposed to one who had millions?

Proof there were millions to start with..
You accept the notion that "Millions" heard it because the book says so..

What if my book said that Mohammed(saws) visited Moses(pbuh) and he told Mohammed(saws) that he is a better messenger. Now just imagine me using that argument does that make sense? Let me rephrase what if my book said Mohammed(saws) visited Moses(pbuh) and he told Mohammed(saws) that he(mohammed saws) is a better messenger with over 1 Billion witnesses standing next to them.

See how weak the argument is with not historical evidence?

As for defending Mohammed's(saws) credibility he was called trustworthy by every person alive during hes time and even by hes enemy. He gave up hes possession, health, blood and live for Islam. He endured much more then Moses(pbuh) did according to the Torah. I can proof all these things with historical references can you do the same?


Ps: Using Answering-Islam or Shamoun's work is pathetic.

 

[Kemble]

Yes exactly,its like saying a programmed rejection for anything to be Christian or Muslim.

I urge both of you to dig a little more, and find ways you exemplify, motivated reasoning. Yes, it is challenging, but well worth it.

 

[Kemble]

As for defending Mohammed's(saws) credibility he was called trustworthy by every person alive during hes time and even by hes enemy. He gave up hes possession, health, blood and live for Islam. He endured much more then Moses(pbuh) did according to the Torah. I can proof all these things with historical references can you do the same?

Curious: how familiar are you with the academic picture of the historical Muhammad? Remember that the sira literature were written after the first century of Islam, and (importantly) are theologically motivated to paint a favorable light (just like the Gospels). Any strict academic historians, university publishers, etc, that you know of?

Ps: Using Answering-Islam or Shamoun's work is pathetic.

Right, probably best to first get yourself familiar with what ad hominem means.

 

[FearGod]

Haha, Ok, let's see, (I highlighted the important part in red) from the link I gave:

You didn't explain anything,just you copy and paste

Psalm 136:13-15

13 to him who divided the Red Sea[a] asunder
His love endures forever.
14 and brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.
16 to him who led his people through the wilderness;
His love endures forever.
17 to him who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
18 and killed mighty kings—
His love endures forever.
19 Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
20 and Og king of Bashan—



Exodus 5

Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the wilderness.’”
2 Pharaoh said, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go.”

Exodus 15

Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord:
“I will sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.

2 “The Lord is my strength and my defense[a];
he has become my salvation.
He is my God, and I will praise him,
my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
3 The Lord is a warrior;
the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his army
he has hurled into the sea.
The best of Pharaoh’s officers
are drowned in the Red Sea.[b]
5 The deep waters have covered them;
they sank to the depths like a stone.

So where did it say in Talmud that god preserved the body of Pharaoh as a sign for the people who will come after him

"What, now! When previously you rebelled and were one of the corrupters? Today we will preserve your body so you can be a Sign for people who come after you. Surely many people are heedless of Our Signs." (Qur'an, 10:91-92)

Please pick up the verse in Talmud which says that god preserved the body of Pharaoh as a sign for the people whom will come after him.

 

[dantech]

Well you agree that Prophets have a connection with a higher deity so you accept the fact that Prophets or Messengers do not need a "Public revelation". Mohammed(saws) also gave us a law..

But Mohamed is the whole reason you and a billion others are Muslim today. All this because a he said he spoke to an angel when he was alone, as opposed to Moses who spoke publicly.

This is just dodging the point i was raising.

not at all. Now you are the one dodging my point...

So you have no historical evidence for this nor any testimony?

Do you have historical evidence that Mohamed spoke to Gabriel? Do you have historical evidence that he even existed, other than the Kuran?

Proof there were millions to start with..
You accept the notion that "Millions" heard it because the book says so..

I do accept it because the book says so. Just like you accept that Mohamed spoke to Gabriel, because the book says so.

What if my book said that Mohammed(saws) visited Moses(pbuh) and he told Mohammed(saws) that he is a better messenger. Now just imagine me using that argument does that make sense? Let me rephrase what if my book said Mohammed(saws) visited Moses(pbuh) and he told Mohammed(saws) that he(mohammed saws) is a better messenger with over 1 Billion witnesses standing next to them.

See how weak the argument is with not historical evidence?

The difference between your argument and mine is that I don't use my book as evidence. I use yours. Your book also says that God spoke to the Children of Israel. So I use a text that you believe has been well preserved and is holy. Surely what is written inside is true to you, isn't it?

As for defending Mohammed's(saws) credibility he was called trustworthy by every person alive during hes time and even by hes enemy. He gave up hes possession, health, blood and live for Islam. He endured much more then Moses(pbuh) did according to the Torah. I can proof all these things with historical references can you do the same?

Oh really? You can prove it? Well go ahead please. Keep it mind that just like you don't accept Jewish texts as evidence, I don't accept Muslim texts as evidence either.


Ps: Using Answering-Islam or Shamoun's work is pathetic.[/QUOTE]
I don't even know what those are...

 

[F0uad]

Curious: how familiar are you with the academic picture of the historical Muhammad? Remember that the sira literature were written after the first century of Islam, and (importantly) are theologically motivated to paint a favorable light (just like the Gospels). Any strict academic historians, university publishers, etc, that you know of?

Very familiar to start with, i have done 2 Year of study in Islamic history, i know the science behind the Hadith, opinions and work by many early scholars and historians regarding many subjects so i am pretty sure i know more then you do. Moreover the comparison with the gospels and Hadith is so flawed that it shows you haven't read anything about one or the other.

Right, probably best to first get yourself familiar with what ad hominem means.

Its better for people who do not know anything about the person to be silent. Shamoun is an well known liar in the debate sphere.

 

[F0uad]

But Mohamed is the whole reason you and a billion others are Muslim today. All this because a he said he spoke to an angel when he was alone, as opposed to Moses who spoke publicly.

The whole reason why you are a Jew is that one verse says that a million people heard it? What if my Quran said the same thing would you be a Muslim?

not at all. Now you are the one dodging my point...

I am not going to play that game sorry.

Do you have historical evidence that Mohamed spoke to Gabriel? Do you have historical evidence that he even existed, other than the Kuran?

Spoken to Gabriel? well the Quran itself is evidence if you want to know why the Quran is "Miraculous" i advice to open a thread on the dir.
We have historical evidence such as: Belongings, Muslim testimony, Non-Muslim testimony, Treaties, Coins, Emblems, Non-Muslim writings, Historians from the time.. i can go on and on.. Mohammed(saws) is the most historical figure in these three Religions.

I do accept it because the book says so. Just like you accept that Mohamed spoke to Gabriel, because the book says so.

So how do you expect us to belief your argument "that millions heard it" because your book says so?

The difference between your argument and mine is that I don't use my book as evidence. I use yours. Your book also says that God spoke to the Children of Israel. So I use a text that you believe has been well preserved and is holy. Surely what is written inside is true to you, isn't it?

Please quote me the verse of the Quran that says he spoke from a mountain to all the people among Moses(pbuh) like in Deuteronomy 4:9-13

Oh really? You can prove it? Well go ahead please. Keep it mind that just like you don't accept Jewish texts as evidence, I don't accept Muslim texts as evidence either.

Well what about Hadiths that you can check the authenticity your self?

 

[Rakhel]

This has got to be the silliest arguments I have seen in a while.
The circles just keep getting smaller and smaller to the point that they only make sense to the ones making them.

 

[F0uad]

This has got to be the silliest arguments I have seen in a while.
The circles just keep getting smaller and smaller to the point that they only make sense to the ones making them.

Just a question are you talking about me?