Judaisms Core

[1213]

Jesus taught that even the smallest part of the law would be in effect "until heaven and earth pass away." Paul, OTOH, undermined the law. He taught for example that eating meat sacrificed to idols and keeping the Shabbat were really at the discretion of the believer, and that circumcision was not important. This is why so many of us say that Christianity (which calls keeping the law "legalism" and "judaizing") is really the product of Paul, not Jesus.

Ok, thank you. I think Paul is misunderstood, for example because he also says:

But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully, as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
1 Tim. 1:8-10

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok, thank you. I think Paul is misunderstood, for example because he also says:

But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully, as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
1 Tim. 1:8-10

"Most scholars believe that Paul actually wrote seven of the thirteen Pauline epistles (Galatians, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians), while three of the epistles in Paul's name are widely seen as pseudepigraphic (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus).[1] Whether Paul wrote the three other epistles in his name (2 Thessalonians, Ephesians and Colossians) is widely debated"

Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Please give one example.

Here are a few examples:

• “‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God’” (Luke 9:59-60).
• Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
• Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. (Mark 11:13-14)
• On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.
• John 10:30 “I and the father are one.”
• “Truly[d] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. (Mark 11:23)
• “So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, him I also will deny before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:32-33)
• Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:8-9)
• Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)
• Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. (Matthew 19:28-30)

 

[dybmh]

Ok, thank you. I think that is how Jesus was "anointed".

Could be. I wasn't there.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Please explain why do you think so?

Because, in the Torah, Jews are warned against individuals who will make themselves out to be leaders and contradcit the Torah like Korach did. We also warned against people in our ranks who will go against the Judicial system that the Creator put in place for Jews to build in the Torah. We are also warned against Jews who would do what is called Avodah Zara and convince other Jews to do so. The various individuals that historically most likely influenced the writers of the NT did all of these things individually.

 

[metis]

No, it is very clear from the most ancient and authorative understandings of the Hebrew langauge of the text. Of course if one wants to try to insert a "modern" conept to a thousands of years old text - without a Mesorah or better yet ignoring the Mesorah that exists in ancient Jewish communities - then yes someone can interpret something that is known with a foreign concept. Or, someone can say because they lack a Mesorah they personally don't know.

In the Hebrew Bible, 1 Samuel 28:13, elohim is used with a plural verb. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she saw elohim ascending (olim עֹלִים, plural verb) out of the earth when she summoned the spirit of the Prophet Samuel at Saul's request.[20] The word elohim, in this context, can refer to spirits as well as deities.[21] Some traditional Jewish sources say that the spirits of deceased human beings are being referred to[citation needed]. The Babylonian Talmud states: "olim indicates that there were two of them. One of them was Samuel, but the other, who was he? – Samuel went and brought Moses with him."[22] Rashi gives this interpretation in his commentary on the verse.[23] Regarding this, Sforno states that "every disembodied creature is known as elohim; this includes the soul of human beings known as [the] 'Image of God'."[24]... -- Elohim - Wikipedia

 

[Ehav4Ever]

In the Hebrew Bible, 1 Samuel 28:13, elohim is used with a plural verb. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she saw elohim ascending (olim עֹלִים, plural verb) out of the earth when she summoned the spirit of the Prophet Samuel at Saul's request.[20] The word elohim, in this context, can refer to spirits as well as deities.[21] Some traditional Jewish sources say that the spirits of deceased human beings are being referred to[citation needed]. The Babylonian Talmud states: "olim indicates that there were two of them. One of them was Samuel, but the other, who was he? – Samuel went and brought Moses with him."[22] Rashi gives this interpretation in his commentary on the verse.[23] Regarding this, Sforno states that "every disembodied creature is known as elohim; this includes the soul of human beings known as [the] 'Image of God'."[24]... -- Elohim - Wikipedia

It is clear to Jews who read in Hebrew You are making two mistakes. You are capetlizing (אלהים). There is no place for using capitals. First of all (אלהים) does not mean what "god" means in English. The term denotes "strength, power, or the ability to to do." It does not denote "diety." Thus, anything that has power, strength, or is considered to have it - even mistakely - can be called (אלהים). That is why, in ancient Hebrew חudges can be called (This is explained by numerous "Torah based commentators," including Rashi.

Also, supporting what Rashi stated:

Also, you don't appear to understand what Rashi's commentary is based on. It isn't his interpretation. Rashi gives sources of a Midradic nature, he was provding a summary of information from Midrashim. i.e. Rashi vs. Ibn Ezra would be a comparison of Dקrash sources vs. Peshat.

Also, be aware. Wikipedia is not an accurate source for understanding Torah. Thus, like I said. "the most ancient and authorative understandings of the Hebrew langauge of the text." Wikipedia is not on that list.

 

[metis]

It is clear to Jews who read in Hebrew You are making two mistakes. You are capetlizing (אלהים). There is no place for using capitals. First of all (אלהים) does not mean what "god" means in English. The term denotes "strength, power, or the ability to to do." It does not denote "diety." Thus, anything that has power, strength, or is considered to have it - even mistakely - can be called (אלהים). That is why, in ancient Hebrew חudges can be called (This is explained by numerous "Torah based commentators," including Rashi.

View attachment 94203
Also, supporting what Rashi stated:

View attachment 94204

Also, you don't appear to understand what Rashi's commentary is based on. It isn't his interpretation. Rashi gives sources of a Midradic nature, he was provding a summary of information from Midrashim. i.e. Rashi vs. Ibn Ezra would be a comparison of Dקrash sources vs. Peshat.

Also, be aware. Wikipedia is not an accurate source for understanding Torah. Thus, like I said. "the most ancient and authorative understandings of the Hebrew langauge of the text." Wikipedia is not on that list.

Sorry, but I am not buying the above. The commentary system is not uniform. Secondly, we simply do not have any of the original sources or anything even that close to them. Also, I did not capitalize "elohim" as capitals were/are not used. Also, wiki is not the original source of such information as they use links that are provided for the reader.

You are coming off as if you were the authority, which is not that which a Talmudic scholar really does.

I'm moving on, so take care.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sorry, but I am not buying the above. The commentary system is not uniform.

You don't have to buy it. Like I said, someone who has a Mesoreth knows what the word means. Those without a Mesoreth are stuck using sites like Wikipedia which is not in any way authorative about the Tanakh. Besides, IF a Jew understands what type of commentary they reading they know how to use the use the uniform. That information is normally found in the commentators preface. Also, any Torah based Jew knows that there is no need for a uniform commentary system. Any Jew who has some Torah to teach and pass on has every right to do so. This is actually a command from the Torah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You are coming off as if you were the authority, which is not that which a Talmudic scholar really does.

No, I am actually coming off like any Torah based Jew on this site and not on this site who goes to the original sources and reads them directly. I also, make sure to know what the foundations are for the sources I post. I also learn them from Torah scholars from various Jewish communities, thus when I quote sources I quote from a range of them from various Jewish communities and not just my own. In terms of Talmudic scholars, they are famous for calling out incorrect information that doesn't come from a valid Mesoreth. If I were claiming myself to by the authority as you claim I would not bring up the concept of a Mesoreth and I would not quote sources I am referencing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Secondly, we simply do not have any of the original sources or anything even that close to them.

You may not have valid sources, but that is not the case for Torah based Jews who have sources that were passed down orally and in written form for thousands of years. Even the Torah states that on it own is enough and best of all (drum roll) the Creator Himself guarenteed that there would always be Jews who know how to correctly understand the fundamentals of the Torah.

Besides, it is widely known that many Middle Eastern communities are experts in the Hebrew of ancient times and never lost it. This is compounded by European Jews who share the same information and also never lost it. Thus, after more than 2,500 years of seperation Jews who never knew the others existed meet up in the land of Israel and are found to have the same foundations of the Torah - including what the term (אלהים) means and what it doesn't mean.

That is a lot stronger than a peice of paper / parchment / etc. that when the people who wrote something on it fade out of history w/o their descendants having a passed down a mesoreth about it.

 

[1213]

"Most scholars believe that Paul actually wrote seven of the thirteen Pauline epistles (Galatians, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians), while three of the epistles in Paul's name are widely seen as pseudepigraphic (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus).[1] Whether Paul wrote the three other epistles in his name (2 Thessalonians, Ephesians and Colossians) is widely debated"

Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think that is interesting, difficult to know why they accept the 7 are his, but not the rest. I believe they all are from Paul.

 

[1213]

Here are a few examples ["completely off base against the Torah"]:

• “‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God’” (Luke 9:59-60).

So, do I understand correctly, it is more important to bury dead than do good?

• Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. (Mark 11:13-14)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• John 10:30 “I and the father are one.”

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

Also, I think in this case it is good to notice, Jesus said that also his disciples are one with God.

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may be-lieve that you sent me.
John 17:21

I understand that means they have the same will, which in my opinion is not against the Torah.

• “Truly[d] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. (Mark 11:23)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• “So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, him I also will deny before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:32-33)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:8-9)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

• Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. (Matthew 19:28-30)

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

 

[1213]

...We also warned against people in our ranks who will go against the Judicial system that the Creator put in place for Jews to build in the Torah....

And you think Jesus did that? Why?

 

[metis]

You may not have valid sources, but that is not the case for Torah based Jews who have sources that were passed down orally and in written form for thousands of years.

I do believe we all know what can and sometimes does happen with oral traditions alone over time. Nothing is "perfect" and that is certainly true when dealing with documents of antiquity. We have no origins that date back thousands of years ago. The DSS are the oldest, but they were written later in the c.e.

Either way, I posted commentary on "Elohim" that shows some scholars tend to believe that it may be a reference to haShem and the heavenly hosts. Whether that's true or not, no serious student of Torah can tell.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, do I understand correctly, it is more important to bury dead than do good?

For a Jew, according to the Torah, taking care of and even burying one's parents is a big mitzvah. One can't claim to be doing good for others if they are neglecting their own parents. Further, what the NT claims that Jesus and his followers were doing did not override the mitzvahs that deal with the treatment of one's parents. Historically speaking, there was nothing that was done by the historical Jesus that would give him the ability to make such an off statement to a man. Telling someone, about their own parents, let the dead bury the dead is very harsh and in fact in the Torah and in Jewish law one is required to give parents a higher degree of respect EVEN IF the parent is not a good person. In fact, the concept is that when a Jew is born three are involved in the process - Hashem, the father, and the mother. So, for someone to say such a disrepectful statement it is known that that statement is against the Torah.

Just as an example, in the book of Kings the prophet Eliyahu told Elisha to follow him on an important mission to do good. When Elisha requested to first go to his parents and kiss them goodbye before he left Eliyahu agreed to this and waited.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I do believe we all know what can and sometimes does happen with oral traditions alone over time.

Lucky for Torah based Jews Hashem put a system in place where Jews have always had "Oral" and "Written" traditions along with regular performance of the mitzvoth of Hashem. Thus, even in exile Jews from far-flung locations who never had contact with Jews from other far-flung locations came back together in the last 100 years all having the same core mitzvoth, the same core Oral and Written foundational traditions, the same histories of their origins, etc. Thus, Hashem not only created the system that Torah based Jews have been maintaining - in Hashem wisdom He chose the right people on the planet who would do so even in the face of exile and danger.

Thus, the foundations of Yemenite Jewish society has the same foundations as Chinese Jewish society or Polish Jewish society - which they all kept in the same ancestral languge. This even though large numbers of Jews from these communities had no contact with each other for more than 2,500 years.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And you think Jesus did that? Why?

One of the Jews who is claimed to be the historical basis for some of the NT Jesus stories did Avodah Zara and tryed to show it off publically. One of the claims about him was that he considered himself to be doing miracles by ways of magic. According to some Torah scholars there is no such thing as magic, but this particular individual was tricking people into thinking he was doing something like healing people. There is a particular concept for this individual that people tried to convince him to stop - per Torah judicial law - but he refused and when it went to the supreme court Jerusalem he wouldn't listen to them.

There is another Jew, who is also considered to be an inspiration who went against the Judicial system publically and tried to teach different from them - which also goes against the Torah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Please explain how is this against the Torah?

In the Torah Hashem never claims that any individual is the way to Him, and that no one gets to Hashem w/o going through any particular Jew. The Torah clearly states that Hashem alone is the path to Hashem, not someone else claiming to be the path.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Either way, I posted commentary on "Elohim" that shows some scholars tend to believe that it may be a reference to haShem and the heavenly hosts. Whether that's true or not, no serious student of Torah can tell.

Again, I don't think you understand why a scholar would say that. The term (אלהים) does not mean what "god" or "diety" means in English. It means "power, strength, the ability to do."I already explained why in Ancient Hebrew it can be used to describe anything that either "has power" or that humans "perceive" to have power. The definitions for how the word (אלהים) is known to be used and its meaning comes from ancient Jewish commentaries. The "scholars" you are talking about got that information from the Torah based Jews of old who put into writing the Oral understand of the word. The scholars you are talking about had no other way to know the word can describe different things that have power or are percieved to have power except for "drum" to consult the only ancient sources about the Hebrew language and that was the rabbis of the Mishnah, the Gemara, the Geonim, the Rishonim, and the Achoronim. There is no other ancient source of how ancient Hebrew worked. These are the earliest and the basis of the knowledge of the Hebrew language.

And when one checks through the Mishnah, the Gemara, the Geonim, the Rishonim, and the Achoronim they knew exactly what the implcations of (אלהים) being used to describe an aspect of how humans relate to Hashem. I.e. they knew that the plural is describing the powers of Hashem, the honor of Hashem, the judgements of Hashem, etc. as it relates to what humans experience. They knew Elohim was not a name, the way that westerns use the word name, but instead descriptions of aspects of how Hashem relates to our reality.

Again, one can't take a modern "Western" concept and apply it to an ancient culture that didn't see the world the same way as modern western culture. This is the reason that Jews from around the world not only learn Hebrew but also learn the linquistic and cultural norms of our (us Jews) ancestors in order to deal with our current reality by understanding our ancestor's frame of mind.

So, serious Torah students do know - IF they study the source material from across the Jewish world and avoid sites like Wikipedia and such.

So, for example a Jew who studies the writings of the Mishnah, the Gemara, the Geonim, the Rishonim, and the Achoronim they will know the Mesoreth correctly.