Judeo-Christian...say what?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Its a horrible term born in the USA ...

No.

The earliest use of the term "Judeo-Christian" in the historical sense dates to 1829 in the missionary journal of Joseph Wolff, ... [source]

Joseph Wolff (1795 - 2 May 1862), Jewish Christian missionary, was born at Weilersbach, near Bamberg, Germany. He travelled widely, and was known as the Eccentric Missionary, according to Fitzroy Maclean's Eastern Approaches. [source]

... with the idea to bring judaism into christianity.

No.

The present meaning of "Judeo-Christian" regarding ethics first appeared in print on July 27, 1939, with the phrase "the Judaeo-Christian scheme of morals" in the New English Weekly. The term gained much currency in the 1940s, promoted by groups which evolved into the National Conference of Christians and Jews, to fight antisemitism by expressing a more inclusive idea of American values rather than just Christian or Protestant. [source]

 

[CMike]

I agree with the term as well.

 

[Dena]

I agree with the term as well.

You agree with what?

 

[CMike]

You agree with what?

The term "judeo-chrisitian" values.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Where did this term come from? And why? It is such a widespread term and yet it has no rational meaning. Judaism and Christianity are nearly diametrically opposite religions. It confounds me when people use this term "Judeo-Christian" to lump our two religions together as if we believed almost the same things. And when it is used, it is always used to describe Christian beliefs. For example, I just saw on another thread where a poster was talking about Satan and wrote "...this Judeo-Christian personification of evil..." Well, it's not for us. Satan is just one of G-d's angels and is unable to take independent action.

The list of our opposing differences just goes on and on. We are opposite on Sin, opposite on the attributes of G-d, opposite on atonement, opposite on actions, opposite on the afterlife, etc. How can we go about getting this 'Judeo-Christian' term expunged?

Can't.
Shouldn't.
Not gonna happen.

Judeo-Christian VALUES is an term brought to life in America - the US of A.
Our Founding Fathers espoused Judeo Christian Values.
Although the Founders were varying degrees of Christians, they all had strong respect for Judaism; the Torah; and what they would have called the Hebraic Peoples.
Many key concepts of American values, such as the concept of Justice, come from directly from the Torah.

Plus, the original Christian settlers had a strong connection to Judaic values.
American Christians invented Fulfillment Theology -which is the idea that coming to America Fulfilled G-d's Promise to Christians to bring them to their Promised Land. Fulfillment Theology eventually replaced (it took about 400 years) Replacement Theology which was the simple philosophy that Christians Replaced Jews in G-d's Promises to the Children of Israel.

Fulfillment Theology believed that Christians fleeing Europe to America were re-enacting the Jews fleeing from Egypt.
The wicked, oppressive countries of Europe were Egypt.
The despotic Kings and Queens were Pharaoh.
The Atlantic Ocean was the River Jordan.
The Promised Land was America.
The Native Americans were the Canaanites.
And the Land of Milk and Honey and endless opportunity; replete with G-d's Bounty and Blessings, was and, incidentally, Is, the Promised Land of the seminal Nation on Earth that espouses Judeo Christian Values.

 

[Akivah]

Like Tarheelers says, many Christian do think Jews and Christians believe almost the same thing. I've had Christians downright shocked at the things I tell them and it's not because I'm super liberal, I'm giving them the normal, traditional views. They have no clue. Honestly, they think it's just like Christianity without Jesus so it's not surprise that they would use the term.

I agree completely. I've had Christians tell me that my [normative] beliefs weren't "true" Judaism, but were instead "New Age" Judaism or "Rabbinic" Judaism. Whereas their beliefs about the validity of their idol was "true" Judaism.

And I'm not the only person that dislikes the term. In the Wikipedia page on Judeo-Christian it says

Two notable books addressed the relations between contemporary Judaism and Christianity, Abba Hillel Silver's Where Judaism Differs and Leo Baeck's Judaism and Christianity, both motivated by an impulse to clarify Judaism's distinctiveness "in a world where the term Judeo-Christian had obscured critical differences between the two faiths." Reacting against the blurring of theological distinctions, Rabbi Eliezer Berovits wrote that "Judaism is Judaism because it rejects Christianity, and Christianity is Christianity because it rejects Judaism". Theologian and author Arthur A. Cohen, in The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition, questioned the theological validity of the Judeo-Christian concept and suggested that it was essentially an invention of American politics, while Jacob Neusner, in Jews and Christians: The Myth of a Common Tradition, writes, "The two faiths stand for different people talking about different things to different people".

 

[CMike]

I agree completely. I've had Christians tell me that my [normative] beliefs weren't "true" Judaism, but were instead "New Age" Judaism or "Rabbinic" Judaism. Whereas their beliefs about the validity of their idol was "true" Judaism.

And I'm not the only person that dislikes the term. In the Wikipedia page on Judeo-Christian it says

Wikipedia sucks.

I hate the false term "rabbinic judaism" as if judaism comes from the rabbis and not G-d.

 

[Akivah]

Wikipedia sucks.

I agree. I saw Jayhawker using it and 'assumed' that yall used it around here.

 

[metis]

I agree. I saw Jayhawker using it and 'assumed' that yall used it around here.

It has its pros and cons, and it has been getting better, but often what's more useful is checking out the links provided and then spinning off from there. I don't believe in blindly trusting any single source.

 

[dantech]

Wikipedia sucks.

I hate the false term "rabbinic judaism" as if judaism comes from the rabbis and not G-d.

I don't think "rabbinic judaism" suggests that Judaism comes from the Rabbis as opposed to from God. I think it suggests that Judaism is taught to us by the rabbis. Rabbinic Judaism would basically mean Talmudic Judaism, which is what you, and I do indeed practice.

 

[CMike]

I don't think "rabbinic judaism" suggests that Judaism comes from the Rabbis as opposed to from God. I think it suggests that Judaism is taught to us by the rabbis. Rabbinic Judaism would basically mean Talmudic Judaism, which is what you, and I do indeed practice.

I don't.

To me Judaism comes from G- d not the Talmud.

Judaism can be taught straight from the Torah.

 

[dantech]

I don't.

To me Judaism comes from G- d not the Talmud.

Judaism can be taught straight from the Torah.

I didn't say Judaism comes from the Talmud. I said we learn how to practice it from the Talmud. Whether you believe it or not, you do learn to practice it from the Talmud and from your Rabbis.

From the Torah, you learn not to cook the kid in the mother's milk. It is written three times, sure. Does that mean you automatically know you need to wait 6 hours after having eaten meat to eat a dairy product? Even the Oral law needs explanations. These laws have been debated over and over again by our sages. What you practice as a religion today is the result of what conclusion these Tana'im and Amora'im got to.

How many laws do you abide too that are called Mitzvot Derabanan? Whether you like the word or hate it doesn't change the fact that Judaism is a religion taught to its believers' by sages.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Wikipedia sucks.

I agree. I saw Jayhawker using it and 'assumed' that yall used it around here.

It has its pros and cons, and it has been getting better, but often what's more useful is checking out the links provided and then spinning off from there. I don't believe in blindly trusting any single source.

"Wikipedia sucks" is a juvenile comment at best. If there is faulty content, one should focus on exposing it as such.

 

[CMike]

"Wikipedia sucks" is a juvenile comment at best. If there is faulty content, one should focus on exposing it as such.

Is it that it sucks big time better?

 

[CMike]

I didn't say Judaism comes from the Talmud. I said we learn how to practice it from the Talmud. Whether you believe it or not, you do learn to practice it from the Talmud and from your Rabbis.

From the Torah, you learn not to cook the kid in the mother's milk. It is written three times, sure. Does that mean you automatically know you need to wait 6 hours after having eaten meat to eat a dairy product? Even the Oral law needs explanations. These laws have been debated over and over again by our sages. What you practice as a religion today is the result of what conclusion these Tana'im and Amora'im got to.

How many laws do you abide too that are called Mitzvot Derabanan? Whether you like the word or hate it doesn't change the fact that Judaism is a religion taught to its believers' by sages.

"Rabbinic Judaism" implies that judaism comes from the rabbis. I condemn that term.

Where does do not steal come from?

Where does do not committ adultery come from?

Where does keep the sabbath come from? Yes, the talmud may give details how to keep it that is murky from the torah, but the commandments comes from G-D.

Where does the holiday of yom kippur come from?

Where do all these commandments come from?
The 613 Commandments - Mitzvahs & Traditions

Even the oral law comes from G-D.

Yes, where there is murkiness it's clarified.

However, just about every law and commandment comes from G-D.

So onec again I denounce "rabbinic judaism" as it implying to orthodox judaism in any way. I consider it offensive.

 

[dantech]

"Rabbinic Judaism" implies that judaism comes from the rabbis. I condemn that term.

Where does do not steal come from?

Where does do not committ adultery come from?

Where does keep the sabbath come from? Yes, the talmud may give details how to keep it that is murky from the torah, but the commandments comes from G-D.

Where does the holiday of yom kippur come from?

Where do all these commandments come from?
The 613 Commandments - Mitzvahs & Traditions

Even the oral law comes from G-D.

Yes, where there is murkiness it's clarified.

However, just about every law and commandment comes from G-D.

So onec again I denounce "rabbinic judaism" as it implying to orthodox judaism in any way. I consider it offensive.

You're arguing for no reason... I agree that the laws come from God. What I'm saying is that orthodox Judaism is a religion that can't be practiced without the knowledge of our masters. I also said the rabbinic Judaism doesn't imply that the laws come from the rabbis. It implies that the laws are taught and interpreted to us by the rabbis. That's it. You can't argue with that, it's a fact.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Long Live the Kitniyot Liberation Front!

 

[CMike]

You're arguing for no reason... I agree that the laws come from God. What I'm saying is that orthodox Judaism is a religion that can't be practiced without the knowledge of our masters. I also said the rabbinic Judaism doesn't imply that the laws come from the rabbis. It implies that the laws are taught and interpreted to us by the rabbis. That's it. You can't argue with that, it's a fact.

It implies that the laws come from rabbis. It doesn't.

It should be called Torah Judaism.

Rabbis clarify murkiness based on the intentions of the Torah.

In the US are laws based on the constitution and legal codes or based on the courts?

 

[Moishe3rd]

It implies that the laws come from rabbis. It doesn't.

It should be called Torah Judaism.

Rabbis clarify murkiness based on the intentions of the Torah.

In the US are laws based on the constitution and legal codes or based on the courts?

Y'now, normally I agree with you CMike but, Dantech is right. This is a distinction without a difference.
Rabbinic Judaism; "Talmudic Judaism;" Torah Judaism are all the same thing.
Why?
Because, according to our Mesora; our Tradition, we understand that Moshe Rabbeinu was given both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah on Har Sinai.
The Oral Torah was pass on verbally for about 1500 years until after the Destruction of the 2nd Temple when it was understood by the Rabbis that the Oral Torah was in danger of being lost.
So, Yehuda HaNasi redacted the Oral Torah; its questions; its different lines of thought; its arguments; and everything else, into the Mishna. Later scholars continued to question; remember; argue and discuss in the Gemara.
This comprises the original Talmud and, according to G-d, the Great Sages and Rabbis are instructed to continue delving into and commenting upon the Torah and all that that entails.
It's ALL Torah - from G-d; according to G-d.

 

[CMike]

Y'now, normally I agree with you CMike but, Dantech is right. This is a distinction without a difference.
Rabbinic Judaism; "Talmudic Judaism;" Torah Judaism are all the same thing.
Why?
Because, according to our Mesora; our Tradition, we understand that Moshe Rabbeinu was given both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah on Har Sinai.
The Oral Torah was pass on verbally for about 1500 years until after the Destruction of the 2nd Temple when it was understood by the Rabbis that the Oral Torah was in danger of being lost.
So, Yehuda HaNasi redacted the Oral Torah; its questions; its different lines of thought; its arguments; and everything else, into the Mishna. Later scholars continued to question; remember; argue and discuss in the Gemara.
This comprises the original Talmud and, according to G-d, the Great Sages and Rabbis are instructed to continue delving into and commenting upon the Torah and all that that entails.
It's ALL Torah - from G-d; according to G-d.

I say there is a BIG difference.

Many critics say all the laws are made up from the rabbis, from men.

That is not true.

The laws come from G-D.

I see calling it Torah judaism as opposed to rabbinic judaism as a very important and distinctive difference.

Orthodox judaism doesn't come from the rabbis, it comes from G-D.