Judeo-Christian...say what?

[Flankerl]

Rabbinic Judaism is the term to distinguish Temple Judaism from non-Temple Judaism.


And it makes sense. There is also nothing bad about it because Rabbinic Judaism kept/keeps us together in exile, something Temple-era Judaism couldnt/cant.

 

[CMike]

Rabbinic Judaism is the term to distinguish Temple Judaism from non-Temple Judaism.


And it makes sense. There is also nothing bad about it because Rabbinic Judaism kept/keeps us together in exile, something Temple-era Judaism couldnt/cant.

I am almost afraid to ask, what in your definition of "temple judaism" vs "non-temple" judaism?

 

[Flankerl]

I dont understand the question.

 

[CMike]

Sorry. I clarified it.

 

[Flankerl]

Seriously i dont know what you want from me.

The religious beliefs of the Sadducees were different from the religious beliefs of the Pharisees/Rabbis/well... us.

But back then the Sadducees ran the temple and were what one might call "the true Judaism". This all changed after the 2nd Temple was destroyed and they basically lost everything.

 

[metis]

As typical with so many discussions, a lot depends on how one defines terms used? Frankly, since all current branches have rabbis, or variations of the word, then all branches are examples of "rabbinic Judaism". If one wants to qualify that term so as to make a distinction of one type or another, then they need to explain how they're using their terminology.

Shabbat shalom

 

[RabbiO]

One reason to refer to Judaism today as rabbinic Judaism is Baba Metzia 59b - the oven at Aknai.

Peter

 

[CMike]

As typical with so many discussions, a lot depends on how one defines terms used? Frankly, since all current branches have rabbis, or variations of the word, then all branches are examples of "rabbinic Judaism". If one wants to qualify that term so as to make a distinction of one type or another, then they need to explain how they're using their terminology.

Shabbat shalom

Judaism is based on the Torah not the rabbis.

Therefore it's Torah Judaism or G-D Judaism.

It's not based on rabbis but G-d.

 

[dantech]

One reason to refer to Judaism today as rabbinic Judaism is Baba Metzia 59b - the oven at Aknai.

Peter

You just made a great point. Can't believe I didn't think of this as an example when I was debating it with CMike. But the problem CMike is having, is that Rabbinic Judaism means a different thing to him. For some reason, he believes "Rabbinic Judaism" means to suggest that Judaism is given to us from the Rabbis rather than God, which is not the case.

Rabbinic Judaism only suggests that the Torah is to be taught and interpreted by the rabbis.

 

[metis]

Judaism is based on the Torah not the rabbis.

Therefore it's Torah Judaism or G-D Judaism.

It's not based on rabbis but G-d.

That's really not what I was referring to, so you're reading something into what I wrote that wasn't actually stated nor implied.

Shabbat shalom

 

[metis]

One reason to refer to Judaism today as rabbinic Judaism is Baba Metzia 59b - the oven at Aknai.

Peter

Peter, just had to have a separate post to say Shabbat shalom to you and yours as we've not had that much of a chance to talk to one another. Hope all is well, and...

Gut Shabbos, my friend.
Vern

 

[RabbiO]

Peter, just had to have a separate post to say Shabbat shalom to you and yours as we've not had that much of a chance to talk to one another. Hope all is well, and...

Gut Shabbos, my friend.
Vern

Shabbat shalom back at you.

Peter

 

[CMike]

You just made a great point. Can't believe I didn't think of this as an example when I was debating it with CMike. But the problem CMike is having, is that Rabbinic Judaism means a different thing to him. For some reason, he believes "Rabbinic Judaism" means to suggest that Judaism is given to us from the Rabbis rather than God, which is not the case.

Rabbinic Judaism only suggests that the Torah is to be taught and interpreted by the rabbis.

Not necessarily.

Not all the the Torah laws need the rabbis to teach and interpret.

Do you need the rabbis to teach you what do not steal mean means?

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what do not committ adulterly means?

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what do not make a graven image means?

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what don't worship ideal mean?

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what eating kosher means? It's right there in the Torah.

The Torah says keep the sabbath. When sabbath starts exactly is figured out by the rabbis. But the sabbath is part of G-D Judaism, not rabbinic judaism.

"Rabbinic Judaism" by definition means Judaism comes from the rabbis. That is not the case.

The rabbis are needed when there is murkiness to clarify.

The oral law comes from G-D too, not the rabbis.

There is sizable group who state that orthodox judaism is simply made up by the rabbis.

 

[metis]

A rabbi is just one of the means to an end, but not an end in and of itself, so one should not divorce the importance of having rabbis in present day Judaism.

 

[dantech]

Not necessarily.

Not all the the Torah laws need the rabbis to teach and interpret.

Do you need the rabbis to teach you what do not steal mean means?

Bava Batra makes it certainly seem a lot more difficult than you do.

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what do not committ adulterly means?

You know, without rabbis that the law applies to women and not to men? Do you know the exact definition of adultery without rabbis? I doubt it.

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what do not make a graven image means?

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what don't worship ideal mean?

Masekhet Avoda Zara seems to think so.

Do you need the rabbis to tell you what eating kosher means? It's right there in the Torah.

So you obviously see no issue in eating chicken cheese burgers, right?

The Torah says keep the sabbath. When sabbath starts exactly is figured out by the rabbis. But the sabbath is part of G-D Judaism, not rabbinic judaism.

You're making things seen simpler than they really are.
The fact that you don't know when Shabbat comes in, or why we need to use kos sheni for tea without rabbis proves that you definitely need rabbis to interpret and comment on each and every mitzva.

"Rabbinic Judaism" by definition means Judaism comes from the rabbis. That is not the case.

whose definition? Yours? Mine means that Judaism is taught by rabbis.

The rabbis are needed when there is murkiness to clarify.

I challenge you to find one halakha that is so straightforward and lacks all murkiness, that no rabbi ever has felt the need to comment on it.

The oral law comes from G-D too, not the rabbis.

agreed. Find me one mishna that hasn't been commented on because of its simplicity.

There is sizable group who state that orthodox judaism is simply made up by the rabbis.

These people are wrong, but it doesn't change the meaning of words such as Rabbinic Judaism

Shabbat Shalom

 

[CMike]

I challenge you to find one halacha that is made up solely by the rabbis and has no basis from the Torah? If you can't than it's not "Rabbinic Judaism", it's "Torah Judaism".

Why would you put the basis of jewish on rabbis and not on G-D?

I understand not to idol worship pretty well. I don't need rabbis to define it to understand it.

I think do not steal is pretty clear. You don't?

It kind of reminds me of Christianity. Christianity by definition makes it's religion centered on Jesus, and not G-D.

"Rabbinic Judaism" by definition makes it's religion centered on rabbis, and not G-D.

It see it as an extremely important distinction.

It doesn't matter if the rabbis comment on various laws or not. The religion isn't about them. It's about G-D.

The center is G-D.

Therefore it's either G-D's judaism or Torah Judaism, in no way should it be calle "rabbinic judaism".

 

[CMike]

And Shabbat Shalom.

 

[RabbiO]

I challenge you to find one halacha that is made up solely by the rabbis and has no basis from the Torah? If you can't than it's not "Rabbinic Judaism", it's "Torah Judaism".

Why would you put the basis of jewish on rabbis and not on G-D?

I understand not to idol worship pretty well. I don't need rabbis to define it to understand it.

I think do not steal is pretty clear. You don't?

It kind of reminds me of Christianity. Christianity by definition makes it's religion centered on Jesus, and not G-D.

"Rabbinic Judaism" by definition makes it's religion centered on rabbis, and not G-D.

It see it as an extremely important distinction.

It doesn't matter if the rabbis comment on various laws or not. The religion isn't about them. It's about G-D.

The center is G-D.

Therefore it's either G-D's judaism or Torah Judaism, in no way should it be calle "rabbinic judaism".

Apparently your distaste for the term, and what the hey I'm not going to get into an argument with you - there too many really important things to be concerned about - is not shared by all who identify as Orthodox. One example being Rabbi Joshua Maroof, the rabbi of Magen David Sephardic Congregation in Rockville, MD, who uses that term in his writing.

Shabbat Shalom.

Peter

 

[dantech]

I challenge you to find one halacha that is made up solely by the rabbis and has no basis from the Torah? If you can't than it's not "Rabbinic Judaism", it's "Torah Judaism".

Why would you put the basis of jewish on rabbis and not on G-D?

I understand not to idol worship pretty well. I don't need rabbis to define it to understand it.

I think do not steal is pretty clear. You don't?

It kind of reminds me of Christianity. Christianity by definition makes it's religion centered on Jesus, and not G-D.

"Rabbinic Judaism" by definition makes it's religion centered on rabbis, and not G-D.

It see it as an extremely important distinction.

It doesn't matter if the rabbis comment on various laws or not. The religion isn't about them. It's about G-D.

The center is G-D.

Therefore it's either G-D's judaism or Torah Judaism, in no way should it be calle "rabbinic judaism".

Again, I never said anything about Judaism being the rabbi's rather than God's.
I repeat. Judaism comes from God. Rabbinic Judaism simply means that this God given religion, is interpreted and explained to us by Rabbis.

 

[CMike]

Again, I never said anything about Judaism being the rabbi's rather than God's.
I repeat. Judaism comes from God. Rabbinic Judaism simply means that this God given religion, is interpreted and explained to us by Rabbis.

Where in the term "rabbinic judaism" does it say it's from G-D?

Rabbinic is mentioned but where is G-D mentioned?