Judge halts implementation of Trump's immigration order

[Jainarayan]

I respond to people the way they respond to me. If you want less snark, you know what to do.

Yeah, and I asked an honest question with honest intent and got snark.

Thank you for the explanation, but I'd also like to point out I didn't say anything about how I want them to be. I asked how drugs, guns and illegals were getting in. That's all it was.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, and I asked an honest question with honest intent and got snark.

Thank you for the explanation, but I'd also like to point out I didn't say anything about how I want them to be.

Yes, you did.

I asked how drugs, guns and illegals were getting in. That's all it was.

For drugs: smuggling. There's always a way to smuggle stuff if the smuggler is determined enough. Even the Berlin Wall was permeable to a certain extent. For the US, the level of scrutiny is a balance between security and trade.

For illegal immigrants: AFAIK, the majority enter the country legally and then overstay their visas or violate their visa conditions.

For guns: I don't understand why anyone would smuggle guns INTO the US. That's like bringing sand to the beach.

 

[Jainarayan]

For illegal immigrants: AFAIK, the majority enter the country legally and then overstay their visas or violate their visa conditions.

I'm having a hard time with this one, considering the outcries about the number of illegals entering from Mexico.

5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S.

Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants in 2014, though their numbers had been declining in recent years. There were 5.8 million Mexican unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. that year, down from 6.4 million in 2009, according to the latest Pew Research Center estimates. Meanwhile, the number of unauthorized immigrants from nations other than Mexico grew by 325,000 since 2009, to an estimated 5.3 million in 2014. Populations went up most for unauthorized immigrants from Asia and Central America, but the number also ticked up for those from sub-Saharan Africa. Increases in the number of unauthorized immigrants from other countries mostly offset the decline in the number from Mexico.

For guns: I don't understand why anyone would smuggle guns INTO the US. That's like bringing sand to the beach.

According to a recent report (pdf) on arms trafficking by Mexico's governmental research service, known as the CESOP, an estimated 2,000 weapons illegally enter Mexico from the United States every day.

2000 Illegal Weapons Cross US-Mexico Border Per Day: Report

Google how many guns are smuggled into the us

 

[esmith]

Yes, you did.


For drugs: smuggling. There's always a way to smuggle stuff if the smuggler is determined enough. Even the Berlin Wall was permeable to a certain extent. For the US, the level of scrutiny is a balance between security and trade.

For illegal immigrants: AFAIK, the majority enter the country legally and then overstay their visas or violate their visa conditions.

For guns: I don't understand why anyone would smuggle guns INTO the US. That's like bringing sand to the beach.

You don't understand why someone would smuggle firearms into the US? Hmmm, well let's put it this way. Any fully automatic weapon manufactured after May 19 1986 can not be owned by a private citizen and can not be imported into the US. In addition machine guns may only be imported by a registered importer, and only if they are being imported for sale or distribution to a federal or state agency or political subdivision thereof, or for use by a registered dealer as a sales sample.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Obama has brought them here without a home as well.

I'm not sure that answers my question as to where these people are supposed to go, if they can't go home.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't understand why someone would smuggle firearms into the US? Hmmm, well let's put it this way. Any fully automatic weapon manufactured after May 19 1986 can not be owned by a private citizen and can not be imported into the US. In addition machine guns may only be imported by a registered importer, and only if they are being imported for sale or distribution to a federal or state agency or political subdivision thereof, or for use by a registered dealer as a sales sample.

I meant that part as a joke, but in all seriousness, gun smuggling is a huge problem at the US border; it's just predominantly in the other direction. The American legal gun market is the main source of black market firearms for neighbouring countries.

 

[metis]

Isn't it ironic that the country that often boasts about being so Christian is the largest weapons manufacturer and exporter by far. So much for "blessed are the peacemakers...".

 

[SkepticThinker]

Refugees home is in the US? Don't think so.

Those with permanent resident cards simply go through a secondary screening and are allowed in assuming they pass.

I'm talking about the people mentioned in Nietzsche's comment:

"Because it's wrong. Federal judges agree that it is wrong. The idea this is done for "security" is laughable. Yes, barring these people from returning to their homes, people who have chosen to come to live in the United States and be productive Americans, is all about keeping us "safe". It's bigotry and hatred, it's that simple."


Besides that, many refugees have indeed made the US their home. But I guess people fleeing death and destruction and ISIS will have to come to Canada now.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Isn't it ironic that the country that often boasts about being so Christian is the largest weapons manufacturer and exporter by far. So much for "blessed are the peacemakers...".

And the one so quick to turn down people facing a humanitarian crisis in their own country?

 

[esmith]

I meant that part as a joke, but in all seriousness, gun smuggling is a huge problem at the US border; it's just predominantly in the other direction. The American legal gun market is the main source of black market firearms for neighbouring countries.

I don't take anything you say about firearms as a joke, and you know the reason why.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't take anything you say about firearms as a joke, and you know the reason why.

Because you have no sense of humour about your precious guns?

(That was a joke, BTW)

 

[Underhill]

I'm having a hard time with this one, considering the outcries about the number of illegals entering from Mexico.

5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S.

Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants in 2014, though their numbers had been declining in recent years. There were 5.8 million Mexican unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. that year, down from 6.4 million in 2009, according to the latest Pew Research Center estimates. Meanwhile, the number of unauthorized immigrants from nations other than Mexico grew by 325,000 since 2009, to an estimated 5.3 million in 2014. Populations went up most for unauthorized immigrants from Asia and Central America, but the number also ticked up for those from sub-Saharan Africa. Increases in the number of unauthorized immigrants from other countries mostly offset the decline in the number from Mexico.



According to a recent report (pdf) on arms trafficking by Mexico's governmental research service, known as the CESOP, an estimated 2,000 weapons illegally enter Mexico from the United States every day.

2000 Illegal Weapons Cross US-Mexico Border Per Day: Report

Google how many guns are smuggled into the us

And you realize the wall won't do much of anything to stop guns and drugs.

Another interesting statistic. A large majority of illegals living in the country entered legally and not by illegally crossing the border.

 

[habiru]

I'm not sure that answers my question as to where these people are supposed to go, if they can't go home.

U.S. the land of opportunity? Think again, it’s Germany

The foundation has come under intense scrutiny of late amid revelations it received millions of dollars in donations from foreign governments while Hillary Clinton served as secretary of state. Money also flowed to the foundation from companies and businessmen who benefited from their relationship to the Clintons.

Furthermore, analysis of the foundation’s tax forms showed it spends a relatively small percentage of its income on charitable activity.



Read more: Clinton Foundation Put On Charity ‘Watch List’ Along With Al Sharpton’s Shady Nonprofit
Clinton Foundation Put On Charity ‘Watch List’ Along With Al Sharpton’s Shady Nonprofit

Mexico deports 91 Cubans after U.S. ends 'wet foot, dry foot'

Last month, the Mexican Navy picked up eight refugees off the Yucatan Peninsula. Seven others had died when their boat sank. Mexico deported the survivors, an act that led to protests by Cuban-Americans in Miami. Cuban Refugees Tangle Mexican Diplomacy

Bahamas deports Cuban refugees despite protests
Bahamas deports Cuban refugees despite protests - BBC News

 

[SkepticThinker]

U.S. the land of opportunity? Think again, it’s Germany

The foundation has come under intense scrutiny of late amid revelations it received millions of dollars in donations from foreign governments while Hillary Clinton served as secretary of state. Money also flowed to the foundation from companies and businessmen who benefited from their relationship to the Clintons.

Furthermore, analysis of the foundation’s tax forms showed it spends a relatively small percentage of its income on charitable activity.



Read more: Clinton Foundation Put On Charity ‘Watch List’ Along With Al Sharpton’s Shady Nonprofit
Clinton Foundation Put On Charity ‘Watch List’ Along With Al Sharpton’s Shady Nonprofit

Mexico deports 91 Cubans after U.S. ends 'wet foot, dry foot'

Last month, the Mexican Navy picked up eight refugees off the Yucatan Peninsula. Seven others had died when their boat sank. Mexico deported the survivors, an act that led to protests by Cuban-Americans in Miami. Cuban Refugees Tangle Mexican Diplomacy

Bahamas deports Cuban refugees despite protests
Bahamas deports Cuban refugees despite protests - BBC News

Still not sure how this answers my question.

Are you saying they should go to Germany? They've already made homes in the US.

 

[Jainarayan]

And you realize the wall won't do much of anything to stop guns and drugs.

I never said anything about the wall. I don't know if it will work or even help, or even be built.

 

[metis]

The issue about the wall is very likely going to hurt us as already in Mexico there is a movement to boycott American products, and I believe Mexico is #2 when it comes to American exports. Notice how the DOW is reacting this week already.

 

[habiru]

Still not sure how this answers my question.

Are you saying they should go to Germany? They've already made homes in the US.

If they were able to established a home, and so then they should of have been establishing their citizenship while Obama was in office. Unless they were on the run from the Law.
the first thing that I had done when I had moved to another country, and that is to established my citizenship. Without doing that, I know that I will be unable to settled down in that country.
But the only reason that I believes that the Mexican immigrants never established their right to live here. It is two things. The first that they must be on the run from the law, and the second is that the ones that hands out the visa were only accepting bribes from those immigrants that wants their papers.

 

[Nous]

Why?

You requested that I tell you why Trump's EO violates the Constitutional rights of Darweesh, Alshawi and other similarly situated lawful immigrants, and I replied that I had already done so, namely that "It violates the Due Process and Equal Protection rights of immigrants such as Darweesh and Alshawi." So what are you asking "Why?" about?

If you are asking why such detention, denial of entry into the US and denial to consult with one's lawyer is a violation of a lawful immigrant's Due Process and Equal Protection rights, it is because those Constitutional provisions are recognized to prohibit such actions by the government, and the Court has recognized these rights for all such persons within the jurisdiction of the US, exactly as Professor Cole pointed out and as I already quoted:

For more than a century, the Court has recognized that the Equal Protection Clause is "universal in [its] application, to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to differences of ... nationality."[14] The Court has repeatedly stated that "the Due Process Clause applies to all 'persons' within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence here is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent."[15]​

http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=facpub

The cases cited in these two footnotes are Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356, 369 (1886), Zadvydas v. Davis, 533 U.S. 678, 693 (2001), and Mathews v. Diaz, 426 U.S. 67, 80 (1976), "holding that due process applies to all aliens in the United States, even those whose presence is 'unlawful, involuntary, or transitory'".

These facts are the basis for judge Donnelly's stay of the EO.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If they were able to established a home, and so then they should of have been establishing their citizenship while Obama was in office. Unless they were on the run from the Law.
the first thing that I had done when I had moved to another country, and that is to established my citizenship. Without doing that, I know that I will be unable to settled down in that country.
But the only reason that I believes that the Mexican immigrants never established their right to live here. It is two things. The first that they must be on the run from the law, and the second is that the ones that hands out the visa were only accepting bribes from those immigrants that wants their papers.

They did that and/or were in the process of doing so. That's why the US is their home.

 

[Nous]

So you do not find any of Professor Cole's "personal analysis" on the issue of the Constitutional rights of aliens to be contrary to the Court's holdings, do you?

No one here has denied that the US government lacks the "sovereign power to deport aliens" generally, have they? In what way does "the sovereign power to deport aliens" supposed to relate to Trump's EO?

Are you trying to argue that Trump's EO is constitutional in denying entry to Darweesh, Alshawi and similar immigrants? If so, on what premise do you make that argument?

I argue upon 8 USC 1182:

So, in other words, you cannot argue that Trump's EO is Constitutional, by way of according with the holdings of the Court.