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Judgment from Yahweh during Chr-stmas Day?

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You wrote that the word "Christ" means something ("as it means Saviour") and I'm asking in what language does it mean that.
Why are you being so pedantic?

In Abrahamic religions, a messiah or messias (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīyaḥ; Greek: μεσσίας, messías; Arabic: مسيح, masîḥ; lit. 'the anointed one') is a saviour or liberator of a group of people.
Messiah - Wikipedia

The problem does not arise from the word "saviour" itself, but the concept of HOW the Messiah will save people.

I showed you how [in Book of Revelation] the Messiah will reign for a thousand years on earth, and that satan will be chained in a pit.
i.e. falsehood will be of no avail
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Why are you being so pedantic?

In Abrahamic religions, a messiah or messias (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīyaḥ; Greek: μεσσίας, messías; Arabic: مسيح, masîḥ; lit. 'the anointed one') is a saviour or liberator of a group of people.
Messiah - Wikipedia

The problem does not arise from the word "saviour" itself, but the concept of HOW the Messiah will save people.

I showed you how [in Book of Revelation] the Messiah will reign for a thousand years on earth, and that satan will be chained in a pit.
i.e. falsehood will be of no avail
So you were not giving a definition but a role? When you said "means" you meant "refers to someone who acts as a "saviour"?

OK, so then your source material is still wrong.

The term Mashiach refers to someone who has been anointed. That person is not necessarily a liberator or a savior. High priests were anointed but neither liberated nor saved anyone. Kings were anointed but did not necessarily save anyone or liberate anyone.

Your source material is getting confused between the Hebrew word and the Christian concept.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
..but what has that got to do with the promised Messiah as depicted in Daniel and Enoch?
While that might be a fun path to go down at some other point or on some other thread, right here I am just questioning your misuse/misunderstanding/misrepresentation (take your pick) of the word you used.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
While that might be a fun path to go down at some other point or on some other thread, right here I am just questioning your misuse/misunderstanding/misrepresentation (take your pick) of the word you used.
Context is always important .. trying to claim that words do not need a context to understand verses in scripture is not logical.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Context is always important .. trying to claim that words do not need a context to understand verses in scripture is not logical.
but they also have cultural context. Referring to their use in a Christian context as a meaning of a word which is developed through the Jewish context is intellectually dishonest.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..Referring to their use in a Christian context as a meaning of a word which is developed through the Jewish context is intellectually dishonest.
Is that what you think I was doing?
I merely used the word "saviour" .. it is usually depicted as in "Jesus died for our sins"..

I was pointing out that many Christians believe that Jesus will return as "a saviour" some time soon.
This time round, Jesus will not be coming to "die on a cross", as Book of Revelation clearly shows us.

..so that is what I am doing .. showing people that the beliefs of Christians are rather confused .. will Jesus come back to "save the world" or not?

I say yes .. "dying on a cross" does not save .. and if it did, there would be no reason for Jesus to return to fulfill his role as the promised Jewish Messiah.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Is that what you think I was doing?
I merely used the word "saviour" .. it is usually depicted as in "Jesus died for our sins"..

I was pointing out that many Christians believe that Jesus will return as "a saviour" some time soon.
This time round, Jesus will not be coming to "die on a cross", as Book of Revelation clearly shows us.

..so that is what I am doing .. showing people that the beliefs of Christians are rather confused .. will Jesus come back to "save the world" or not?

I say yes .. "dying on a cross" does not save .. and if it did, there would be no reason for Jesus to return to fulfill his role as the promised Jewish Messiah.
You quoted a source that said "In Abrahamic religions, a messiah or messias (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīyaḥ; Greek: μεσσίας, messías; Arabic: مسيح, masîḥ; lit. 'the anointed one') is a saviour or liberator".

This is wrong. It is a Christian understanding.

You then summed up your position as "as it means Saviour" which it doesn't. I'm just clarifying so no one reading this gets the wrong impression that the word messiah and the concept, both of which stem from the Judaic texts/theology, are at all related to "saving."
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You then summed up your position as "as it means Saviour" which it doesn't. I'm just clarifying so no one reading this gets the wrong impression that the word messiah and the concept, both of which stem from the Judaic texts/theology, are at all related to "saving."
It is quite clear to me, what you are doing.
You are arguing that the word "messiah" literally means "the anointed one"..

I know that, and so do many others.
However, we are discussing "the promised Jewish Messiah".

That is the context, and from what I understand..

The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīaḥ) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jewish people.
Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

..and there we have it. :)
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
It is quite clear to me, what you are doing.
You are arguing that the word "messiah" literally means "the anointed one"..

I know that, and so do many others.
However, we are discussing "the promised Jewish Messiah".

That is the context, and from what I understand..

The Messiah in Judaism (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, romanized: māšīaḥ) is a savior and liberator figure in Jewish eschatology, who is believed to be the future redeemer of the Jewish people.
Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

..and there we have it. :)
right -- in the Jewish system, the messiah (anointed one) will perform a function but that is not part of the meaning of the word/name. The future king messiah will also end sickness, but that doesn't mean that the word "means" healer.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
There is no anger, but simple frustration with someone who completely ignores the purpose of producing the Gospels in the first place, to hand on the faith of the 1st Christians for future generations, which was by word of mouth only. There is absolutely nothing remaining of the initial stage, Jesus and the Apostles. Since the Gospels are written not for the purpose of producing any accurate chronological history nor a complete biography of the life of Jesus, why criticize on those very grounds? The Gospels state only that 'Jesus grew in stature and wisdom' through the 'missing' years. Your personal problem accepting Christian authors' portrayal of who Jesus is/was is irrelevant.
" purpose of producing the Gospels "

Who set the purpose of the Gospels, please, if (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah set the purpose, then kindly quote from Yeshua in this connection in first person in an unambiguous, unequivocal and straightforward manner, please?? Right?

If Yeshua had not produced the Gospels, as one admits, one gets to know, please, then why read the Gospels in the first place, please? Right?

I am happy to know that one is not angry, please. It is just a friendly " Religious Debate", right?

Regards
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
" purpose of producing the Gospels "

Who set the purpose of the Gospels, please, if (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah set the purpose, then kindly quote from Yeshua in this connection in first person in an unambiguous, unequivocal and straightforward manner, please?? Right?

If Yeshua had not produced the Gospels, as one admits, one gets to know, please, then why read the Gospels in the first place, please? Right?

I am happy to know that one is not angry, please. It is just a friendly " Religious Debate", right?

Regards
Can I ask why you say the Israelite Messiah rather than the Jewish Messiah? I mean, it's a rather odd turn of phrase.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Who set the purpose of the Gospels, please

As John states
(John 20:30-31): “Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
For the run up to Chr-stmas, I have been debating with various people regarding the pagan nature of Chr-stmas, how it isn’t Biblical and how Yahweh is deeply displeased with those who engage in it. I was pleasantly surprised to hear how some people on RF know about the Saturnalia, Bacchanalia and Paganalia that existed before the birth of the Messiah, yet were celebrated around December 25th with the same symbols and practices that are kept at Chr-stmas. Only someone with a very limited thinking process would think that these things are merely coincidence. But Chr-stmas is over, however, I wanted to mention the fact that deadly blizzards have been raging across the U.S.A and in Canada with a special concentration on Chr-stmas day. Perhaps you were one of the people that were affected by this. So I’m going to ask the question that people on RF seem to be avoiding. Is this judgment from Yahweh? I don’t think it is mere coincidence that on Chr-stmas day this should take place. Now I want to start by saying I’m not gloating that many people have died during Xmas. Let me say that whenever they are deaths involved, I’m not happy about it, regardless if people were engaging in sinful practices. My attitude echoes Yahweh in Ezekiel 33:11 “Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Yahweh, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ Proverbs 24 says:

“Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth,
And let not thy heart be glad when he is overthrown;
18 Lest Yahweh see it, and it displease him,
And he turn away his wrath from him.”

The Buffalo storms have been classed as “a crisis of epic proportion” and “the worst of the worst” by the New York Governor Kathy Hochul, a native of Buffalo, where 2.4-metre (8-foot) snow drifts against front doors and power outages in freezing temperatures have created life-threatening conditions. More than 200,000 people across several eastern states woke up without power on Christmas morning, and many more had their holiday travel plans upended although the five-day-long storm featuring blizzard conditions and ferocious winds showed signs of easing. The two dozen weather-related deaths were confirmed across eight states, but some US media reported as many as 30 storm-linked fatalities, including four people in Colorado who likely died of exposure and at least seven in western New York.

In Canada, hundreds of thousands of people were left without power in Ontario and Quebec, many flights were canceled in major cities and train passenger service between Toronto and Ottawa was suspended.

Much of the US experienced some sort of winter weather during the large storm, which was generated by a bomb cyclone, a meteorological phenomenon when the atmospheric pressure quickly drops in a strong storm.

What does anger me is that people, I know, are blaming Yahweh for not allowing them to see their loved ones, or friends during this time. For ruining their Xmas, which according to the Chr-stian faith is the holiest day of the year, yet has no basis in the Bible. Yahshua was not even born on December 25, and further, Yahweh doesn’t command we remember his birth but his death at the Passover on the correct day set by the lunar calendar. I know some people are even blaming Yahweh because people have died, at least 60. Instead of blaming Yahweh, why don’t people start asking themselves the question, What am I doing wrong? **Mod Edit**
Blizzards happen all the time in Buffalo and parts of Canada (among other places), all throughout the winter months (December to April). Nothing new there.:shrug:
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Less of a coincidence and more of an expected occurrence in the cold winter months.

And in places like Australia it was warm and sunny since it's summer there. Is God only mad about people celebrating Christmas in the Northern Hemisphere?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
As John states
(John 20:30-31): “Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
Not from (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah.
Does one acknowledge that Yeshua did not set the purpose of the Gospels, right??

Regards
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not from (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah.
Does one acknowledge that Yeshua did not set the purpose of the Gospels, right??

Regards
why do you always say "the Israelite messiah" instead of "the Jewish messiah"? It's just an odd turn of phrase and I'm wondering where you get it from.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Does one acknowledge that Yeshua did not set the purpose of the Gospels, right??

You asked the purpose of the Gospels: I gave you the answer as stated in the gospel itself. You are fixated on the historical Jesus: The Gospels are fixated on the Christ of faith.
 
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