Judgment from Yahweh during Chr-stmas Day?

[Treks]

I don't even know if it's relevant in this thread anymore, but here you go.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think that after 2,000 years, God has already expressed His position on the necessity and significance of both the Temple and the sacrificial system.

I don't think you can conclude that. After all, before 1948, you might have made the same argument saying that it was obvious that God was not interested in Jews returning to Israel, but then, as we all know, 1948 happened.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Christ's death had a profound significance unlike any other man on earth..

..you are wearing those "rose-tinted" spectacles again.

I do not suggest that Jesus is not the Messiah. I do not suggest that Jesus has not had a profound effect on humanity.

..but making it all about "a death" teaches us absolutely nothing.
Almighty God sends His messengers to the world to guide us .. not to "die for us" .. and that is why Jesus was "raised to heaven" .. because, as Jesus taught, he will return at the time appointed.

..is that because he will come again to "die on a cross"?
Of course not. He will come and fulfill his role as the promised Jewish Messiah.
He will enjoin righteousness and forbid evil.
..and this time round, millions of people will believe him to be the Messiah.

 

[wellwisher]

For the run up to Chr-stmas, I have been debating with various people regarding the pagan nature of Chr-stmas, how it isn’t Biblical and how Yahweh is deeply displeased with those who engage in it. I was pleasantly surprised to hear how some people on RF know about the Saturnalia, Bacchanalia and Paganalia that existed before the birth of the Messiah, yet were celebrated around December 25th with the same symbols and practices that are kept at Chr-stmas. Only someone with a very limited thinking process would think that these things are merely coincidence. But Chr-stmas is over, however, I wanted to mention the fact that deadly blizzards have been raging across the U.S.A and in Canada with a special concentration on Chr-stmas day. Perhaps you were one of the people that were affected by this. So I’m going to ask the question that people on RF seem to be avoiding. Is this judgment from Yahweh? I don’t think it is mere coincidence that on Chr-stmas day this should take place. Now I want to start by saying I’m not gloating that many people have died during Xmas. Let me say that whenever they are deaths involved, I’m not happy about it, regardless if people were engaging in sinful practices. My attitude echoes Yahweh in Ezekiel 33:11 “Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Yahweh, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ Proverbs 24 says:

“Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth,
And let not thy heart be glad when he is overthrown;
18 Lest Yahweh see it, and it displease him,
And he turn away his wrath from him.”

The Buffalo storms have been classed as “a crisis of epic proportion” and “the worst of the worst” by the New York Governor Kathy Hochul, a native of Buffalo, where 2.4-metre (8-foot) snow drifts against front doors and power outages in freezing temperatures have created life-threatening conditions. More than 200,000 people across several eastern states woke up without power on Christmas morning, and many more had their holiday travel plans upended although the five-day-long storm featuring blizzard conditions and ferocious winds showed signs of easing. The two dozen weather-related deaths were confirmed across eight states, but some US media reported as many as 30 storm-linked fatalities, including four people in Colorado who likely died of exposure and at least seven in western New York.

In Canada, hundreds of thousands of people were left without power in Ontario and Quebec, many flights were canceled in major cities and train passenger service between Toronto and Ottawa was suspended.

Much of the US experienced some sort of winter weather during the large storm, which was generated by a bomb cyclone, a meteorological phenomenon when the atmospheric pressure quickly drops in a strong storm.

What does anger me is that people, I know, are blaming Yahweh for not allowing them to see their loved ones, or friends during this time. For ruining their Xmas, which according to the Chr-stian faith is the holiest day of the year, yet has no basis in the Bible. Yahshua was not even born on December 25, and further, Yahweh doesn’t command we remember his birth but his death at the Passover on the correct day set by the lunar calendar. I know some people are even blaming Yahweh because people have died, at least 60. Instead of blaming Yahweh, why don’t people start asking themselves the question, What am I doing wrong? **Mod Edit**

I live in New England and we got mild weather and lots of rain. The cold snow line stayed a hundred miles west of us. It felt like spring time. The rained helped to balance off the deficits due to the summer droughts. I did no miss having to shovel snow from a blizzard.

Most of the people who died, died from the cold. Many were elderly. Most of these died due to high energy prices that were artificially increased, by short sighted Democrat and Biden government promotion of green energy, while sabotaging fossil fuel leasing to drastic price increases. Old people had to choose between food, medicine and heat with oil and gas home heating fuel too expensive; leading to death.

The best way to resolve the Christmas/Pagan holiday conflict is Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the 4th century AD. Rome was in control of this merger and to help spread the new official religion to the empire, Christianity was merged with existing pagan customs. There was a bridge made between all. Jesus said render into Caesar; Rome, what is Caesar's and render onto God what is God's. Jesus anticipated a merger of secular and spiritual needs that would help advance the Church. It was not about being clannish but about growth.

What would have been the point of keeping Christianity pure, when this would have led to conflicts, as all the other pagan religions try to do the same. They met in the middle and the empire stayed united.

This merger would place Christianity at the forefront of Western Cultural evolution; part of balance between secular and spiritual needs.

 

[DNB]

I don't think you can conclude that. After all, before 1948, you might have made the same argument saying that it was obvious that God was not interested in Jews returning to Israel, but then, as we all know, 1948 happened.

Yes, you have a point - I might question though as to which events are God ordained and which are man's vain efforts - the destruction of the temple was predicted, at least, undeniably by Jesus.
Question would be: was the second restoration period also predicted (the first being at the time of Zerubbabel, Ezra, Nehemiah)? That is, outside of the Messianic era.

 

[DNB]

..you are wearing those "rose-tinted" spectacles again.

I do not suggest that Jesus is not the Messiah. I do not suggest that Jesus has not had a profound effect on humanity.

..but making it all about "a death" teaches us absolutely nothing.
Almighty God sends His messengers to the world to guide us .. not to "die for us" .. and that is why Jesus was "raised to heaven" .. because, as Jesus taught, he will return at the time appointed.

..is that because he will come again to "die on a cross"?
Of course not. He will come and fulfill his role as the promised Jewish Messiah.
He will enjoin righteousness and forbid evil.
..and this time round, millions of people will believe him to be the Messiah.

unfortunately, you are not wearing your prescription glasses.
Jesus' death was the final Yom Kippur, predicted in both the Old Testament and the new.
Your Islamic perspective cannot comprehend the Gospel of Christ - you must tear-out half the pages of the Gospels in order to come to the conclusions that you draw from the New Testament.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, you have a point - I might question though as to which events are God ordained and which are man's vain efforts - the destruction of the temple was predicted, at least, undeniably by Jesus.
Question would be: was the second restoration period also predicted (the first being at the time of Zerubbabel, Ezra, Nehemiah)? That is, outside of the Messianic era.

I think the idea is that God works through the actions of men. For example, I'm sure the Babylonians had their own interests in mind when they conquered Judah, and yet this event was also God's will. IOW events are both God ordained AND man's efforts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

unfortunately, you are not wearing your prescription glasses.
Jesus' death was the final Yom Kippur, predicted in both the Old Testament and the new..

Really?

A 2010 survey showed that about 40% of Americans believe that Jesus is likely to return by 2050. This varies from 58% of white evangelical Christians, through 32% of Catholics to 27% of white mainline Protestants.
Second Coming - Wikipedia

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Really?

A 2010 survey showed that about 40% of Americans believe that Jesus is likely to return by 2050. This varies from 58% of white evangelical Christians, through 32% of Catholics to 27% of white mainline Protestants.
Second Coming - Wikipedia

And 30% of Irish believe in leprechauns. I'm not sure what point you think you are making.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm not sure what point you think you are making.

I'm making the point, that many Christians expect Jesus to return .. but not to "die on a cross".

I suggest that he will return as the promised Messiah, as that is what he claims to be .. it seems logical enough to me.
Book of Revelation seems to confirm it.

..but those who claim he is God, and die on cross etc, prefer to ignore logicality.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm making the point, that many Christians expect Jesus to return .. but not to "die on a cross".

I suggest that he will return as the promised Messiah, as that is what he claims to be .. it seems logical enough to me.
Book of Revelation seems to confirm it.

..but those who claim he is God, and die on cross etc, prefer to ignore logicality.

So what if some Christians think he's going to return? What point does that make? Like I said, 30% of the Irish believe in leprechauns. So? Are you for example making the argument that something is true simply because the idea is popular?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So what if some Christians think he's going to return? What point does that make?

..so why did Jesus ascend to heaven, and why is he going to descend sometime soon .. according to Christians, that is?

What I'm suggesting, is that our beliefs need to make some sense.
@DNB says "Jesus' death was the final Yom Kippur"

as if that explains everything .. but it really doesn't.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

..so why did Jesus ascend to heaven, and why is he going to descend sometime soon .. according to Christians, that is?

What I'm suggesting, is that our beliefs need to make some sense.
@DNB says "Jesus' death was the final Yom Kippur"

as if that explains everything .. but it really doesn't.

Remember that I'm a Jew. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is dead and buried. He never rose, and he never ascended, and he is not coming back.

But what I'm trying to dig out of you, is what point are you trying to make by pointing out that a minority of Christians believe his return is immanent? Why would you need to point that out?

I agree with your final comment. When Christians spiritualize the Jewish holy days, trying to make them into prophecies, or shadows of other things, I just roll my eyes. I don't usually grace them with a response.

 

[DNB]

I think the idea is that God works through the actions of men. For example, I'm sure the Babylonians had their own interests in mind when they conquered Judah, and yet this event was also God's will. IOW events are both God ordained AND man's efforts.

Of course, they always are - God's sovereignty - man proposes, and God disposes.
But, many history changing events take place all over the world, throughout all ages. We must have some criteria, outside of our own speculations, as to which events are signs from God.
I would think that prophetical attestation would be the sole viable testimony, to determine if an event is in alignment with God's Messianic plan.
...mind you, I do believe that Israel's re-occupation of the holy land is part of God's ultimate covenant with the Jews, but not a re-institution of the Levitical Laws.

 

[DNB]

Really?

A 2010 survey showed that about 40% of Americans believe that Jesus is likely to return by 2050. This varies from 58% of white evangelical Christians, through 32% of Catholics to 27% of white mainline Protestants.
Second Coming - Wikipedia

I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from, or going with this...?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Remember that I'm a Jew. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is dead and buried. He never rose, and he never ascended, and he is not coming back.

I'm fully aware of that..

But what I'm trying to dig out of you, is what point are you trying to make by pointing out that a minority of Christians believe his return is immanent? Why would you need to point that out?

..because the argument of most Christians, is that Jesus is the promised Messiah .. the Christ .. and he fulfilled his role as Christ as it means Saviour .. and God "saved the world" by dying.

The belief that he will return, rather negates that, in as much as he will be returning to "save the world" in a different fashion.

..that's it .. that's all.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
- Revelation 19 -

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
- Revelation 20 -

 

[rosends]

and he fulfilled his role as Christ as it means Saviour

in what language?

 

[muhammad_isa]

in what language?

I didn't claim that the Messiah is a saviour that dies on a cross.
..but the NT is written in Greek, I believe.

 

[rosends]

I didn't claim that the Messiah is a saviour that dies on a cross.
..but the NT is written in Greek, I believe.

You wrote that the word "Christ" means something ("as it means Saviour") and I'm asking in what language does it mean that.

 

[pearl]

..because the argument of most Christians, is that Jesus is the promised Messiah .. the Christ .. and he fulfilled his role as Christ as it means Saviour .. and God "saved the world" by dying.

The word "Christ" is the English transliteration of the Greek word Christos which means "the anointed one". This Greek word, in turn, is a translation of the Hebrew and Aramaic Messiah which also means "anointed".