Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

Which all have nothing to do with God, and you have absolutely no evidences that God is involved in any of it.

No.....the poles just happen to be magnetic and the moon just happens to control the tides and the rain just happens to fall from the clouds to provide water for all life and the grass just happens to feed so many animals and the sun is just the right distance away and all living things just happen to reproduce and animals just happen to know how to sustain their lives and raise their young without being taught.....seriously, I could go on for pages about what God has made to function on this earth that you guys put down to a series of billions of fortunate accidents. Who has the fairy story gnostic? Seriously?

And all these events can be explained by science.

Does the bible explain any of your examples?

No, men who were created to be inquisitive and wanted to understand the workings that God had made were given intelligence to study and find out for themselves the wonders of nature. Its why we alone have a brain that can process this information. What other creatures study science? Only those made in the Creator's image.

The simple answer is no to the wind, and no to the magnet.

The Bible, like in Job 38:


Not a single of these explain, HOW it happen or HOW it work.

These verses certainly have no "scientific values".

All these verses in 4 excruciating chapters (38 to 41) implied that God can do all these things, and Job can't.

This amount to saying a stupid thing like "God did it".

Wow......that is one of the most childish statement I have ever seen you make. You sound like you are mad at God for not making it scientific enough for you to believe it. "Excruciating chapters" in Job? Read them again and learn something....man is an amoeba compared to this Creator God.....clever amoebas arguing about how God couldn't have made his own creation

If God is listening, imagine what he is thinking....?

Those verses are no useful to anyone, especially of no use to anyone. It is simply a continuous rants by God who is only interest in bullying Job into submission. The verses provide no more insight of nature and natural phenomena, but it does provide insight to God being autocratic moron, as superstition as the man (author) of that period.

Now we get to the nitty gritty.....its personal with you, isn't it? You are angry with God.

Why? What has he ever done to incur such hostility?

God is none of the above......I am deeply saddened that you think he could be. What ruler can you think of who has no interest in exercising his rightful authority? You expect God to obey you? Don't hold your breath.....he could snuff us all out like a candle if he chose to, and as Creator it would be his right.....but he is giving all humans the right to choose their own destiny. Until the day when the door of opportunity closes, every soul on this earth can find the road to life. (Matthew 7:13, 14) Your anger is blinding you.

 

[ArtieE]

How convenient for you. You don't have to address that problem because it is someone else's nightmare.

Don't even mention abiogenesis because that is not our field.......as if the origin of life has no bearing on your theory. It can only topple the whole thing.....not our problem.....move along.....nothing to see here

Biological evolution describes how life evolved not how it arose. Biological evolution on earth would work the same way if life arose on earth through abiogenesis or if it came from space or the first cell was created by aliens or some god. There are even people who believe in theistic evolution. Theistic evolution - Wikipedia

Is it a strawman to expect scientists to know how life began?

We don't expect biological evolutionists to "know how life began" any more than we expect meteorologists or seismologists to "know how life began".

ID'ers have no such problem......the Creator created. It isn't more complicated than that....no science degree required.

Here Deeje is misrepresenting the scientific theory of Intelligent Design by using it to support her belief in the existence of a god when "the scientific theory of intelligent design does not claim that modern biology can identify whether the intelligent cause detected through science is supernatural." http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php

 

[Shad]

How convenient for you. You don't have to address that problem because it is someone else's nightmare.

Don't even mention abiogenesis because that is not our field.......as if the origin of life has no bearing on your theory. It can only topple the whole thing.....not our problem.....move along.....nothing to see here

Wrong again. See in science there are divisions called disciplines or fields of study. Certain disciplines only focus on specific subjects. Evolutionary biology is just such a discipline.

 

[gnostic]

Now we get to the nitty gritty.....its personal with you, isn't it? You are angry with God.

Why? What has he ever done to incur such hostility?

To me, nothing. Absolutely nothing.

I am not saying that I know God personally.

But I am showing how he is portrayed in the book of Job, he is a bully, demanding worship by using fear to intimidate people. To me, that sounds exactly what dictators (like Htiler and Stalin) and terrorists do; God used fear and terrors to control people and make them subservient. Look at the fictional character, he was submissive and loyal, but at what prices? The loss of all his earlier children. God gave him new family, as if the ones were lost were traded in for new sheep as compensation.

Is that how you see family, as commodity to remove or trade or exchange.

God in Job is a jerk. I mean how petty can a deity be, at the beginning of the book, to be involved in a petty wager on how to make Job miserable. And then so arrogant and idiotic at the end of book. He is not better than Satan.

 

[Deeje]

Biological evolution describes how life evolved not how it arose. Biological evolution on earth would work the same way if life arose on earth through abiogenesis or if it came from space or the first cell was created by aliens or some god. There are even people who believe in theistic evolution. Theistic evolution - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
I am not one of those.

We don't expect biological evolutionists to "know how life began" any more than we expect meteorologists or seismologists to "know how life began".

And here I thought scientists were supposed to know everything.

Here Deeje is misrepresenting the scientific theory of Intelligent Design by using it to support her belief in the existence of a god when "the scientific theory of intelligent design does not claim that modern biology can identify whether the intelligent cause detected through science is supernatural." http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php

What? Are you telling me what I believe now...? not even close.....I don't subscribe to what others might believe about ID.

My belief about ID is from the Bible, not a website.....

 

[ArtieE]

No.....the poles just happen to be magnetic and the moon just happens to control the tides and the rain just happens to fall from the clouds to provide water for all life and the grass just happens to feed so many animals and the sun is just the right distance away and all living things just happen to reproduce and animals just happen to know how to sustain their lives and raise their young without being taught.....seriously, I could go on for pages about what God has made to function on this earth that you guys put down to a series of billions of fortunate accidents. Who has the fairy story gnostic? Seriously?

And if you look at the odds against any particular human being or animal existing it's perfectly clear that a god must have personally seen to it that we are here. We can't be here due to a series of fortunate accidents. What Are The Odds of You Existing At All?

 

[Deeje]

Wrong again. See in science there are divisions called disciplines or fields of study. Certain disciplines only focus on specific subjects. Evolutionary biology is just such a discipline.

So you see evolution and abiogenesis as totally unconnected? You have to know that if the Creator shows up one day and confronts you with your branch of "science", you are going to feel pretty silly telling him that his part in creation has nothing to do with what you believe.....?

And if you look at the odds against any particular human being or animal existing it's perfectly clear that a god must have personally seen to it that we are here. We can't be here by chance. What Are The Odds of You Existing At All?

How do you figure that "god must have personally seen to it that we are here"? You mean individually? God created life....he created the originals and made it possible for them to reproduce their kind with no assistance from him at all. The original humans were individually created as well, but their offspring were created by their parents. We are all the product of our parents' gene pool. We are individually unique because there is no one like us. Children from the same parents do not all turn out identical. There can be much variety in personality traits, hair color, eye color, physical build and facial features in siblings. Even identical twins are usually different personalities, even though they share the same DNA.

 

[Shad]

So you see evolution and abiogenesis as totally unconnected?

Totally? No. However this does not resolve the error you made.

You have to know that if the Creator shows up one day and confronts you with your branch of "science", you are going to feel pretty silly telling him that his part in creation has nothing to do with what you believe.....?

Hypothetical babble does not make an argument no more than me claiming "Are you not going to feel silly when aliens, Allah, cosmic teapot, etc shows up?"

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In actuality, I have no problem explaining any of it. You assume that life in this world is the way God intended it to be...that is far from the truth. This world, though created by God is not ruled by him at present and never has been from the day humans decided to separate themselves from him.

A lot of disease is spread by ignorance and poor hygienic practices. Venereal disease is spread by immoral sexual practices....all addressed in God's laws. The truth is, we are living in a world ruled by God's enemy who inferred to humans that he would do a better job than a God who restricted their freedom. His motto is "do what I tell you and you will be truly free to do whatever you like". So how has that been working for the human race? Was the "knowledge of good and evil" really worth the cost?

Is the devil a better ruler? Is he a better source of information on how to live a happy and productive life?

All we have to do is look at the laws that God gave to Israel to see what measures were put in place to ensure their good health.
Excrement was to be buried outside the camp which eliminated all diseases that came from human waste spreading to other people....quarantine measures were to be taken with communicable diseases like leprosy. Washing of the hands was encouraged. Regular bathing and the washing of garments, as well as the prohibition of touching dead bodies, all contributed to good health. Even medical practitioners didn't get that memo until the early 20th century. Talk about ignorance! A simple washing of hands could have prevented the spread of disease.

The single most common reason for the parasitic diseases in third world countries is contaminated water where it is often mixed with human waste, the carcasses of dead animals, or other contaminants. So all those diseases are actually caused by lack of education and poor hygiene. God is not responsible...humans are.

Snakes and other venomous creatures usually stay away from man unless man invades his territory. I live in Australia and we have some of the most venomous snakes on earth. Why are we not dropping like flies? Because we respect their habitat and try our best to avoid them. They are usually more scared of us than we are of them. (Read Genesis 9:1-7)

Sharks are a problem here too, but the ocean is their habitat and we can only imagine how many species of fish are being harvested from their feeding grounds by greedy humans, so that they have to go closer to shore to find food and we are sometimes mistaken for food because men often wear black wetsuits and look like seals.

As for mosquito and tick born viruses....as a result of what happened in Eden, humans no longer have an immune system that is up to the task of keeping these viruses under control. "Sin" is human imperfection, lost when Adam rebelled...it results in sickness, old age and death. Our immune system is amazingly designed so that if it functioned at full capacity, it would stop disease viruses before they even took hold.

Coupled with that, if we ate the correct food, grown in mineral rich soil, with natural fertilizers, and had access to fresh, clean, uncontaminated water (chemical free) and eliminated all the junk food from our diet, then what a different story we could tell.....but human greed and disobedience has stopped things from being the way God intended. The only way for the Creator to demonstrate how futile life is without his guidance is to allow humans to experience that life for themselves. Do we ever learn? Do we accept responsibility for our own stupidity and disobedience? You be the judge of that. Its easy to blame God....but he has very little to do with any of it.

Yet, the ONLY thing you did NOT acknowledge that is relevant to this thread is that -- if you think evolution is impossible, then all those things were created by God. Period, end of story. You fail to provide any reason why God might think needed to create "Onchocerca volvulus, a nematode that can live for up to 15 years in the human body, spread by the bit of a black fly (and why did God need those, either?). It causes a disease called Onchocerciasis - or river blindness. It is the world's second leading infectious cause of blindness. One of God's better ideas, do you think? Sorry, but humans do nothing to deserve that.

Or how about the Guinea worm, also, according to you, created by God. It begins with a water flea (they're common, and live in nice clean water, too). They get into the human stomach (swimming or fishing in clean water will do it) and remain there for up to three months. After mating, the male dies and the female bores through the body making her way to the extremities, usually the lower leg or foot, but she can go to any part of the body. Once settled, just under the skin, she begins to grow, by eating the flesh of her carrier, and turns into a 3 - 5 foot worm, causing severe pain and crippling the carrier so that they can't move.

You can try to blame people all you like. Even the few who mistakenly get too close to a snake. But people didn't create the venomous serpent, God did, according to you. And they do indeed kill people every year, lots of them. So you still haven't answered the basic question -- why do you think God needed to create them?

 

[ArtieE]

So you see evolution and abiogenesis as totally unconnected?

Of course. Evolution works even if there was no abiogenesis at all.

How do you figure that "god must have personally seen to it that we are here"? You mean individually?

Yes. Here is the link again. What Are The Odds of You Existing At All? It clearly shows that the chances of exactly you and me and everybody existing at all is practically zero. Yet here we are. Surely you don't believe we are just accidents?

 

[Jose Fly]

Since this thread is becoming a shooting gallery for JW's and the evolutionist are resorting to shooting the messenger, it is very apparent that they have run out of defense and moved into attack mode. Very telling....

Creationists sure are an interesting lot. They come into a forum, engage in all sorts of dishonest and delusional behavior, and then when people start to call them on that, they cry "personal attack", using it as an excuse to run away.

So give us your best efforts to convince us that macro-evolution ever happened

Already done, both by linking to published papers and describing in layman's terms what they mean. Your empty denial of reality doesn't make it go away.

and that ID is just a fairy story.

I repeatedly asked you what the ID model is and what its explanation for things is, and in typical fashion you dodged.

 

[Jose Fly]

Just so you know, @Deeje has been told that at minimum 50 times here, and probably more like over 100 -- and has not yet noticed it. This is one of those things she is simply going to ignore, or can't understand. I'll leave figuring out "why" to others -- I could only speculate.

It's simple avoidance behavior. There are obvious conflicts between reality as determined by science and Deeje's religious beliefs. Not everyone is capable of objectively dealing with and resolving such conflicts, so instead they go with the safest, easiest route.....avoidance. If you just declare up front that the scientific reality is all a sham and shut yourself off from ever understanding any of it, there is no conflict to have to deal with and you can remain emotionally safe and comfortable in your religious beliefs.

It's no different than what I've seen of people who advocate for geocentrism and/or a flat earth. They just declare up front that all of NASA's data and images are fake and that there's no real evidence for heliocentrism/spherical earth. So no matter what evidence you show them, they wave it away as "biased" and part of the conspiracy against their religion. Like with creationists, it's just a means of dealing with the conflict......by avoiding it altogether.

It's also very delusional, lazy, and dishonest, but none of that matters more than the overriding factor.......it works to keep them emotionally comfortable and safe.

 

[Jose Fly]

ID'ers have no such problem......the Creator created. It isn't more complicated than that....no science degree required. No complex explanations using high sounding jargon or big egos looking down on the uneducated masses and assuming that anyone who believes in the Creator must be an uneducated moron......I believe that we will see who fits that description in due time. I can wait.

See? All you have to do is believe in a simple story--no thinking and certainly no testing required--and that's all there is to it!

I don't think I could have asked for a better depiction of just where Deeje is coming from on this subject.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God shows you that he exists by what he has created. If you are not convinced by that, then he doesn't want to know you. Which is more important do you think?.......you knowing that God exists or him knowing you exist? Some people think he owes them an explanation of himself......he doesn't.

Nothing would change except that scientists would lose their silly theory and begin appreciating what creation is....."not accidental"......nothing in biology would change......nothing in chemistry would change....nothing in physics would change....in fact nothing in just about any branch of science would change, except the knowledge of its origins and its originator. That is where the true science has always been.

I see an attitude in evolutionists of "if you only knew what I know, you would change your mind".......I believe that ID'ers can say exactly the same thing with equal conviction. Our "ignorance" is continually brought up as if science knows everything about everything. I want people to know that science, especially in the field of organic evolution, is based on nothing but guesswork. Academia is a house of egos. Its also a house of cards because if the Creator shows up and asks for an accounting for the way we have treated this planet, (he says he will) then who do you suppose will be first on his hit list? Who is responsible for the world's pollution problems? Whose inventions and experiments have led the world into mass murder, heinous weapons and godlessness? Who invented nuclear capability? Plastic? Agricultural methods that rob us of healthy food sources? Who invented machinery that fills the atmosphere with poisons that we are forced to breathe every day, not to mention the technology that exposes every one of us to electromagnetic radiation whether we own Wi-Fi devices or not. All hail science!

Science has contributed many good things in the world, no doubt....but for every good thing there is list of detrimental things that affect the very lives of all of earth's inhabitants. How does it come to have such a high opinion of itself when in reality, it should hang its head in shame for the harm it has done.

Nuclear Power plants were never designed just for electricity production. But you knew that...right?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/fukush...n-crisis-of-worldwide-nuclear-radiation/28870

Or, your god doesn't exist. Or some other god(s) exist. Or no gods exist.

And once again, evolution and god don't necessarily conflict with each other, only with certain specific religious beliefs. There are plenty of religious folks who accept the science and believe in god. Many people have no problem viewing evolution as part of god's design.

Science has given us everything we know today about the world we live in.

 

[gnostic]

Your revulsion is duly noted, gnostic....

....but certainly not unexpected. (John 15:18-21)

BTW you can't join Jehovah's Witnesses....you have to choose to become one. I assure you no one will stand over you with a big stick and force you to do anything against your will.....that is the whole point of this life in this world....choices. We all make them and all of them have consequences.

Actually it has been YOU, who has made Jehovah's Witnesses repulsive, at very personal level.

If you disagree with evolution, then that's fine with as long as you have been doing so in honest manner, without misrepresenting the theory.

But you haven't been honest. You have twisted what evolution do say, and whenever one of us attempted to clarify to the differences between evolution and abiogenesis, instead of thanking us for explaining this to you and learning from it, you continued to attempt to distort what we say.

All of that, are misrepresentations on so many levels, that I now know that you can't stop lying to us, and your pride and bigotry keep you from learning from your mistakes.

For instance, I don't hate god, because I don't know him, and I can't hate someone who might not even exist. But I have made it very clear that god in the book of Job is a very ugly character. God in JOB, is even more insidious character than Satan/Devil in the gospels.

To me, god in Job, sounds like a dictator and a bully. That's what he look like in the book of Job, he look like a petty bully.

I don't like bullies when I was growing up, and I don't like human dictators. So why would I love or worship a deity that's anything like the character in JOB?

 

[Deeje]

OK, time to cut to the chase......time to put your egos in neutral and lets look at the real evidence....

Evolutionists talk about apes evolving into humans. If we look at the skulls in this image comparing a human skull with those of apes, what do we see? At what point in this evolutionary process did humans realize that they were human and that apes were still apes?

Or how about this timeline from Britannica.com?

Lets start with homo habilis....as he seems to be the most "human" in appearance in this illustration.

"Homo habilis is a well-known, but poorly defined species. The specimen that led to the naming of this species (OH 7) was discovered in 1960, by the Leakey team in Olduvai Gorge, Tanzania. This specimen and its designation was the subject of much controversies up through the 1970s. The material was found in the same region where A. boisei had previously been found, and many researchers of the time did not fully accept that the material was sufficiently different from that material (or maybe A. africanus) to denote a new species. Louis Leakey was convinced that this was the Olduvai toolmaker he had spent his life looking for, and placed this as a direct human ancestor, with H. erectus a dead-end side-branch."

Homo habilis - H. habilis (aka Handy Man) is a well known member of the Homo genus.

Was homo habilis human or an ape? How can science tell?

How about homo rudolfensis

"One of the main problems with the rudolfensis species is that there are no postcranial remains that are associated with cranial remains. The rudolfensis specimens have large brains in conjunction with megadont postcanines, and without postcranial evidence it is unknown whether these features are due to a larger body size than contemporary habilis specimens. Due to this problem, competing ideas abound regarding the validity of rudolfensis and its proper place in hominid phylogeny. Some researchers see the larger brain and tooth size as indicative of allometric changes due to increased body size, with rudolfensis and habilis constituting the same species, with the former the males and the later the females. Some see rudolfensis as the ancestor of habilis with a decrease in brain size occurring, and others see the two on completely different evolutionary lines.

This debate is long from over, and all the scenarios have one problem or another. Perhaps with future discoveries that are attributed to the rudolfensis, a clearer picture will appear as to the relationship of these early Homo."

Homo rudolfensis - H. rudolfensis and it's designation as a separate hominid species is highly controversial.

Now we come to homo ergaster....

"Scientists continue to debate whether H. ergaster and Homo erectus are the same species....While some researchers make no distrinction, others argue that H. erectus evolved from the H. ergaster ancestor in Asia, and H. ergaster may be the first human ancestor to populate Europe1. Most African fossils date H. ergaster between 1.9 and 1.4 million years ago (Ma). If the European fossils are included, then the geologic age range of H. ergaster would extended to almost 780,000 years ago (Ka)"

Homo ergaster | eFossils Resources

Not an exact science, is it?

Next in the timeline is homo erectus....."upright man,"

"Homo erectus was once thought to have first evolved from an earlier human ancestor, known as Homo habilis, somewhere in East Africa....In particular, H. erectus had a similar range of body sizes to modern humans, and it is the first human ancestor to have similar limb and torso proportions to those seen in modern humans. This suggests it had adapted to walking on two feet in a more open, grassland environment, rather than swinging from tree branch to branch.

"Unlike Australopithecus fossils, Homo erectus fossils don't preserve features related to climbing," Van Arsdale told Live Science. And similar to modern humans, H. erectus used tools, technology and culture to hunt for and gather food, he said.

Homo erectus' larger brain may explain why its apparent intelligence and why it displays so many distinctly human behaviors. In terms of intelligence, "I don’t think [H. erectus] would be great elementary school students if we try to put them through our education system," Van Arsdale said. "But they were very successful in a lot of different environments."

"(A recent study in Science suggests that Australopithecus had a different type of hand bone adaptation that may have also allowed those ancient hominins to use tools)."

Lineage

The lineage and evolutionary history of H. erectus and other Homo species is unclear, and has been muddied further by recent finds.

However, there's much disagreement about whether these populations are actually all H. erectus, or if they should be considered other species. According to Van Arsdale's H. erectus review, some experts argue H. erectus is restricted largely to Eastern and Southeast Asia, some fossils from Western Asia and Africa should be considered Homo ergaster and European remains are best described as Homo heidelbergensis.

Confusing matters more, after analyzing a new skull — called Skull 5 — in 2013, researchers made the controversial argument in the journal Science that various contemporary Homo species, including Homo rudolfensis, Homo habilis and possibly Homo ergaster, were actually Homo erectus.

Scientists also don't agree on whether H. erectus is a direct human ancestor to Homo sapiens."

Homo Erectus: Facts About the 'Upright Man'

Homo Heidelbergensis

"The more biologically progressive post-800,000 B.P. populations in Europe and Africa are commonly classified as a distinct species--Homo heidelbergensis . By 300,000 years ago, some of these populations had begun the evolutionary transition that would end up with Neandertals and other archaic humans (also called archaic Homo sapiens and premodern humans). By 100,000 years ago, some populations had evolved into modern humans. Others remained largely unchanged until about 28,000 years ago, when they became extinct. These were the Neandertals. Complicating the picture is the fact that, in at least one area of Indonesia, a few Homo erectus remained until at least 53,000 years ago, and the little understood dwarf Homo floresienses persisted until at least 18,000 years ago......Homo heidelbergensis was named for a jaw of this species discovered near the town of Mauer, southeast of Heidelberg, Germany in 1907. Since then, fossils of Homo heidelbergensis have been found throughout the Old World from tropical to temperate zones. These widespread populations show regional variations in physical appearance. The extent of the interaction between these diverse and widely distributed populations is not clear. Likewise, there is not yet agreement as to which of these populations were the ancestors of modern humans. However, it is apparent that in all regions, these people were anatomically a mosaic of late Homo erectus and more modern human traits."

Evolution of Modern Humans: Homo heidelbergensis

Now we have homo sapiens....modern humans.

Here is a nice diagram for you.......

• 
  
  • 
    
    Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.

"History of Discovery:

Unlike every other human species, Homo sapiens does not have a true type specimen. In other words, there is not a particular Homo sapiens individual that researchers recognize as being the specimen that gave Homo sapiens its name. Even though Linnaeus first described our species in 1758, it was not customary at that time to designate type specimens. It is rumored that in 1994 paleontologist Robert Bakker formally declared the skull of Edward Drinker Cope as the “lectotype”, a specimen essentially serving as the type specimen.

We don’t know everything about our own species—but we keep learning more! Through studies of fossils, genetics, behavior, and biology of modern humans, we continue to learn more about who we are.

Below are some of the still unanswered questions about Homo sapiens that may be answered with future discoveries:

1. Who was our direct evolutionary ancestor? Was it Homo heidelbergensis, like many paleoanthropologists think, or another species?
2. How much interbreeding occured between our species and Homo neanderthalensis?
3. What does the future hold for our species in an evolutionary sense?"

Homo sapiens | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

I see a lot of talk but very little real evidence to support all this supposition. If the evolutionists cannot even agree amongst themselves, then what hope is there for the truth to be told?

 

[Deeje]

And finally, Neanderthal Man

Here he is....handsome devil.

"A gradual emergence of the Neanderthals from earlier regional populations of archaic humans can be inferred, probably across their entire geographic range. The changes between Neanderthal ancestors and the Neanderthals themselves highlight their characteristics. Brain size gradually increased to reach modern human volumes relative to body mass, although Neanderthal brains and braincases tended to be somewhat longer and lower than those of modern humans. Neanderthal faces remained large and especially long, similar to those of their ancestors, and they retained browridges and projecting dentitions and noses and had receding chins. Their chewing teeth (premolars and molars) were small like those of early modern humans, and their chewing muscles and cheek regions had shrunk accordingly. Their incisor and canine teeth, however, remained large, like those of their ancestors, indicating continued use of the teeth as a vise or third hand."

So, thus far we have science's explanation for the evolution of man, but hardly a consensus among them about the details of it.

But then you have articles like this one.....

"Skull of Homo erectus throws story of human evolution into disarray"

Fossil skull challenges understanding of human evolution - video



"A haul of fossils found in Georgia suggests that half a dozen species of early human ancestor were actually all Homo erectus....

The spectacular fossilised skull of an ancient human ancestor that died nearly two million years ago has forced scientists to rethink the story of early human evolution.
Anthropologists unearthed the skull at a site in Dmanisi, a small town in southern Georgia, where other remains of human ancestors, simple stone tools and long-extinct animals have been dated to 1.8m years old.
Experts believe the skull is one of the most important fossil finds to date, but it has proved as controversial as it is stunning. Analysis of the skull and other remains at Dmanisi suggests that scientists have been too ready to name separate species of human ancestors in Africa. Many of those species may now have to be wiped from the textbooks."

Hmmmmm.....

 

[Shad]

Creationists sure are an interesting lot. They come into a forum, engage in all sorts of dishonest and delusional behavior, and then when people start to call them on that, they cry "personal attack", using it as an excuse to run away.

Creationism is connected with their religious views which forms a part of their identity. They can not help from becoming offended as criticism targets their capabilities, their knowledge, their religion and themselves. Hence why so many can never accept evolution as it is "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Everything goes with it as Creationism is a foundation belief that can not be modified in their view. Hence why if one points of theistic evolution the usually retort is religious squabbling

 

[savagewind]

In actuality, I have no problem explaining any of it. You assume that life in this world is the way God intended it to be...that is far from the truth. This world, though created by God is not ruled by him at present and never has been from the day humans decided to separate themselves from him.

A lot of disease is spread by ignorance and poor hygienic practices. Venereal disease is spread by immoral sexual practices....all addressed in God's laws. The truth is, we are living in a world ruled by God's enemy who inferred to humans that he would do a better job than a God who restricted their freedom. His motto is "do what I tell you and you will be truly free to do whatever you like". So how has that been working for the human race? Was the "knowledge of good and evil" really worth the cost?

Is the devil a better ruler? Is he a better source of information on how to live a happy and productive life?

All we have to do is look at the laws that God gave to Israel to see what measures were put in place to ensure their good health.
Excrement was to be buried outside the camp which eliminated all diseases that came from human waste spreading to other people....quarantine measures were to be taken with communicable diseases like leprosy. Washing of the hands was encouraged. Regular bathing and the washing of garments, as well as the prohibition of touching dead bodies, all contributed to good health. Even medical practitioners didn't get that memo until the early 20th century. Talk about ignorance! A simple washing of hands could have prevented the spread of disease.

The single most common reason for the parasitic diseases in third world countries is contaminated water where it is often mixed with human waste, the carcasses of dead animals, or other contaminants. So all those diseases are actually caused by lack of education and poor hygiene. God is not responsible...humans are.

Snakes and other venomous creatures usually stay away from man unless man invades his territory. I live in Australia and we have some of the most venomous snakes on earth. Why are we not dropping like flies? Because we respect their habitat and try our best to avoid them. They are usually more scared of us than we are of them. (Read Genesis 9:1-7)

Sharks are a problem here too, but the ocean is their habitat and we can only imagine how many species of fish are being harvested from their feeding grounds by greedy humans, so that they have to go closer to shore to find food and we are sometimes mistaken for food because men often wear black wetsuits and look like seals.

As for mosquito and tick born viruses....as a result of what happened in Eden, humans no longer have an immune system that is up to the task of keeping these viruses under control. "Sin" is human imperfection, lost when Adam rebelled...it results in sickness, old age and death. Our immune system is amazingly designed so that if it functioned at full capacity, it would stop disease viruses before they even took hold.

Coupled with that, if we ate the correct food, grown in mineral rich soil, with natural fertilizers, and had access to fresh, clean, uncontaminated water (chemical free) and eliminated all the junk food from our diet, then what a different story we could tell.....but human greed and disobedience has stopped things from being the way God intended. The only way for the Creator to demonstrate how futile life is without his guidance is to allow humans to experience that life for themselves. Do we ever learn? Do we accept responsibility for our own stupidity and disobedience? You be the judge of that. Its easy to blame God....but he has very little to do with any of it.

None of that addresses the question. Did God personally create pathogens like you say God personally designed all the pretty stuff? And why?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

No.....the poles just happen to be magnetic and the moon just happens to control the tides and the rain just happens to fall from the clouds to provide water for all life and the grass just happens to feed so many animals and the sun is just the right distance away and all living things just happen to reproduce and animals just happen to know how to sustain their lives and raise their young without being taught.....seriously, I could go on for pages about what God has made to function on this earth that you guys put down to a series of billions of fortunate accidents. Who has the fairy story gnostic? Seriously?

Yes when a die keeps rolling a six, at some point you know it's loaded!

the unambiguous fine tuning of the universe for life, is also the rationale behind atheist multiverse theories. That an infinite number of random tries would be needed to pull this off by chance.

We now know that the formation of the physical universe was very specifically guided by information, instructions, predetermining the outcomes we see, not random chance and natural selection as once believed.

But for a lingering minority, this quaint 19th century 'billions of fortunate accident's' model still prevails for life..., it's an attractive idea, the implications of any alternative can be a little daunting