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Just Accidental?

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Olinda

Member
Yeah right...if you can't attack the message, assassinate the character of the messenger. Pull his credentials apart and imply that he is a moron.
@Deeje , how is it character assassination to consider the relevance of a person's education and experience when commenting on her/his utterances? Nor have I said or implied that anyone is a moron.

I'm glad you reposted the quotes again, because I didn't reply fully about your one scientist, Lynn Margulis. Here is an extract from the Wikipedia entry under her name:

"She was an agnostic,[13] and a staunch evolutionist. But she totally rejected the modern evolutionary synthesis,[9] and said: "I remember waking up one day with an epiphanous revelation: I am not a neo-Darwinist! It recalled an earlier experience, when I realized that I wasn't a humanistic Jew. Although I greatly admire Darwin's contributions and agree with most of his theoretical analysis and I am a Darwinist, I am not a neo-Darwinist.[24] She argued that "Natural selection eliminates and maybe maintains, but it doesn't create", and maintained that symbiosis was the major driver of evolutionary change."

I have emphasised with green.
So, exactly as @metis said, her point was not that she disbelieved the ToE, nor that she "saw design" but that she proposed an amended evolutionary pathway. As scientists do.

IOW, I'm afraid you have uncritically passed on a quote mine. Again.

When you see the foundations of something crumbling, its hard to keep admiring what is built on it.
When all you can provide to discredit The ToE are quote mines and youtube videos you don't have a foundation at all.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When all you can provide to discredit The ToE are quote mines and youtube videos you don't have a foundation at all.

Are you serious? The only thing that discredits macro-evolution is the lack of hard evidence that it ever took place except in the fertile minds of men.
We could argue all day about what the scientists say, but that is like arguing about what religionists say.....at the end of the day, we have all made choices about what we believe to be true, and I believe that those choices will ultimately determine our future......you can believe whatever you like.

The purpose of this thread was to demonstrate that the ToE is not supported by evidence, or provable science....only by biased interpretation of fossil remains and the power of suggestion made by those who carry weight in the scientific world. You are welcome to all of that. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I figured that's what you meant when you said, "The apostle Peter said it was there "by the word of God"". Is that not a miracle?

Not unless all the other laws governing the universe are miracles.... Cause and effect dictates that whatever has an effect was "caused" by something or someone....so I believe that God "caused" it...he doesn't tell us how.He left that for us to figure out. We aren't at that level of intelligence yet.

If this whole canopy idea only works by appealing to "the word of God" and a hope for future discovery of some unknown, vague "means", then it's nothing more than a religious belief that has zero scientific basis.

It only has zero "known" scientific basis. Are you arrogantly suggesting that science knows all there is to know?
You act as if humans are gods....the most intelligent creatures in existence.....sorry to burst your bubble.
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But those men of science at who feet you worship, are not as smart as they think they are.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Could it be, as I told you there, that the truth doesn't change. Facts don't change

Except your arguments aren't fact-based, but are instead entirely based on your religious beliefs.

so if science has to continually change its tune when the next discovery exposes their error, then what it taught originally wasn't a fact at all....was it?

One of the psychological traits of religious fundamentalists is that they need certainty and constancy, and have a tough time with nuance and change. Your reply reflects that. You object to the very basic concept of adjusting one's views in response to new information. Instead you clearly prefer the approach of forming firm, absolute conclusions and sticking with them no matter what.

As far as I can see to date, no convincing evidence has been produced to prove that macro-evolution ever happened.

The key there being "as far as I can see". As you explained earlier, being a JW means you simply are not allowed to see things differently. If you were ever to conclude that macroevolution happened, you would have to give up being a JW, including all the social, familial, and personal things that go with it.

That's an enormous price to pay, isn't it? It's far safer and more comfortable to just stay where you're at.

Is Comfort dishonest because he tells an inconvenient truth?
I thought he did a great job of exposing the professors and their students for accepting something for which none of them had any real proof. The students especially displayed a childlike trust in science....the kind that you guys often criticize in believers.The professors seemed equally unable to answer the questions put to them. Offering proof of adaptation is not proving macro-evolution. They seemed very embarrassed and rightly so.

As I showed, the professor in the video (Dr. Myers) actually did answer his question in full, but Comfort edited most of it out and then dishonestly presented it as if Dr. Myers was stumped. Throw in the other documented case of Comfort dishonestly editing his Q&A videos and the conclusion is clear.....Comfort is a dishonest hack.

That makes me wonder....does it bother you at all that you promoted a misleading video from a documented liar?

And the "primary source" would be one that supports your view....right?
No, a "primary source" is the original piece of work that someone else is describing.

How are you any different to the people you criticize? Your assumption that you can't be wrong....might be wrong.
I don't stoop to dishonest tactics and sources to support my arguments.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
What did they say?

Lynn Margulis....."In an interview shortly before her death, Margulis explained, “Neo-Darwinists say that new species emerge when mutations occur and modify an organism. I was taught over and over again that the accumulation of random mutations led to evolutionary change—led to new species. I believed it until I looked for evidence.” Echoing the arguments of many ID proponents, Margulis maintains that “new mutations don’t create new species; they create offspring that are impaired.

Again we see that you resort to dishonesty to make your case. Dr. Margulis was an advocate of symbiogenesis, which is merely a different mechanism of evolutionary change. But overall, she was not only an "evolutionist", she also said "I am definitely a Darwinist".

So you trying to cite her as at all supportive of your position is one more example of the fundamental dishonesty inherent in creationism.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Not unless all the other laws governing the universe are miracles.... Cause and effect dictates that whatever has an effect was "caused" by something or someone....so I believe that God "caused" it...he doesn't tell us how.He left that for us to figure out. We aren't at that level of intelligence yet.

And that puts the whole thing in the realm of religious belief.

It only has zero "known" scientific basis. Are you arrogantly suggesting that science knows all there is to know?

When you figure out the mechanism that allowed all this to happen, let us know. Until then, it will remain what it is....a religious belief that contradicts our current understanding of fundamental physics.
 

Olinda

Member
We could argue all day about what the scientists say, but that is like arguing about what religionists say.....
If that means you will stop citing the Lynn Margulis quote mine, we're fine.

Are you serious? The only thing that discredits macro-evolution is the lack of hard evidence that it ever took place except in the fertile minds of men.
There is more evidence for the ToE than for the structure of the atom. . . which has also never been directly observed. Yet your literature finds one established and the other incredible. The only real difference is the perceived conflict with your religious beliefs.

The purpose of this thread was to demonstrate that the ToE is not supported by evidence, or provable science....only by biased interpretation of fossil remains and the power of suggestion made by those who carry weight in the scientific world. You are welcome to all of that. :)

You sure have a way to go to demonstrate that!
;)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is more evidence for the ToE than for the structure of the atom. . . which has also never been directly observed. Yet your literature finds one established and the other incredible. The only real difference is the perceived conflict with your religious beliefs.

The perceived conflict has more to do with a complete lack of evidence on the part of science to prove that their theory is true.

As I have said many times...you are free to believe whatever takes your fancy. But please don't pretend that macro-evolution has one shred of solid evidence that it ever happened. That is based on the scientists' belief...the theory remains unproven and always will.

I guess being able to harness the power of the atom is proof enough of its existence. Do Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring a bell?

You sure have a way to go to demonstrate that!

That depends on your mindset.....do you speak for all the readers here? You will never stop believers believing and the undecided need to know that the whole theory is not all its cracked up to be.

I hear that we ID'ers have nothing new.....perhaps it is the evolutionists who have nothing new by way of proof that any species ever evolved into a completely different one.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Lynn Margulis....."In an interview shortly before her death, Margulis explained, “Neo-Darwinists say that new species emerge when mutations occur and modify an organism. I was taught over and over again that the accumulation of random mutations led to evolutionary change—led to new species. I believed it until I looked for evidence.” Echoing the arguments of many ID proponents, Margulis maintains that “new mutations don’t create new species; they create offspring that are impaired.

This person doesn't understand how evolution works. If there were just an accumulation of random mutations without a selection process to keep and accumulate the beneficial ones and cull the harmful ones out, she would be correct.

Also, she says, "I believed it until I looked for evidence." She obviously didn't try very hard. The evidence is robust. It comes from multiple independent avenues, and each point to the same conclusion.

And one doesn't have to look very far for the evidence. Any textbook on evolution will tell you what it is. Today, add the Internet:

From Thomas Nagel....His 2012 book Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False, he elaborates his critiques of Darwinism: “It is prima facie highly implausible that life as we know it is the result of a sequence of physical accidents together with the mechanism of natural selection. We are expected [by mainstream biologists] to abandon this naïve response [critiquing standard materialist explanations of life’s origins], not in favor of an alternative that is really a schema for explanation, supported by example. What is lacking, to my knowledge, is a credible argument that the story has a nonnegligible probability of being true.”

This is a logical fallacy called argument from incredulity. His whole argument is simply that he can't see it. That's irrelevant to all others.

Jerry Fodor.....Natural selection “cannot be the mechanism that generates the historical taxonomy of species,” he writes, for “the theory of natural selection is internally flawed…there’s a crack in the foundations.”

Random mutation and natural selection alone are unable to find the extremely rare DNA sequences that yield solutions to complex biological problems.....the challenge for gradualist adaptationism is to explain how mutations capable of producing full wings can have accumulated silently over a long evolutionary time in the absence of any adaptive advantage.”

Another argument from incredulity followed by an irreducible complexity claim.

The argument from incredulity is worded more forcefully that the previous one. Instead of words like "implausible," he simply asserts that evolution can't possibly do what it is said it does. He doesn't tell us why. He just tells us that there is a crack in the foundation, and doesn't elaborate. That's adds an argument by assertion fallacy, which the Nagel comment doesn't contain.

How can one hope to persuade others with arguments like these?


 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Creation itself is testimony enough for the existence of the Creator.

Circular argument fallacy. There is a creator because there is a creation, and there is a creation because there is a creator. Change the word "creation" to "reality," and you will see the hidden assumption that you have inserted into the word "creation."

The same thing happens with "design." Design implies a designer. Change the word to "pattern," and the designer disappears.

there is nothing that science can offer that would make me abandon my belief in God

This is a statement of closed-mindedness. Open-mindedness is the willingness to consider evidence and/or an argument impartially and to be convinced by a compelling argument. When you say that there is absolutely nothing can change your mind, you're telling us it's closed shut.

Here are three more people making the same kind of comment as you did, the first two prominent Christians:

[1] "... if in some historically contingent circumstances, the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I don't think that that contraverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..." . William Lane Craig

[2] "The moderator in the debate between Bill Nye and Ken Ham on whether creationism is a viable scientific field of study asked, 'What would change your minds?' Scientist Bill Nye answered, 'Evidence.' Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, 'Nothing. I'm a Christian.' Elsewhere, Ham stated, 'By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

[3] “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa

Like you, these people are all telling us that their minds are closed for business. So why should people that value evidence, reason, critical thought, and skepticism have any regard for the opinions of people that think that way?

It's not just that the two groups have different beliefs. It's that they don't process information the same way. There is no hope of a meaningful dialog between them. Another person might have a different belief than I do, but if his way of thinking and determining what is true is the same as mine, we can have a conversation. We have a method for examining one another's conclusions and trying to reconcile the differences.

We can go back to where we parted ways and explain to one another why we chose a different path. We can re-examine the evidence and apply the rules of reason to it. One might convince the other.

Or if the divergence is sue to different values, we can understand one another even if we come to different conclusions because of those values. Maybe one thinks that the state has the right to take a life and the other doesn't. Maybe one feels that abortion is acceptable and the other doesn't. These differences would account for different conclusions.

And if there wasn't a value judgment aspect to the matter - maybe we're discussing the hours of a restaurant that we want to go to, and you think it's closed and I think it's open - one of us can persuade the other with evidence. Call the restaurant, for example.

The cooperative attempt to determine what is true using reason and evidence just described is called dialectic

But when the other person believes by faith and refuses to consider evidence and argument open-mindedly, there is no basis for discussion, and we just ignore one another. It's equivalent to you saying that you believe that the restaurant is closed by faith, and that no evidence could change your mind, including the fact that I just called them and they told me it was. Why would I listen to a person who thinks that way?

the evidence is not overwhelming at all....it is rather pathetic for how much store is put in it, as Lynn Margulis indicated. Macro-evolution is a 'suggestion' that has no facts to back it up except what science "interprets" to fit its theory.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. You've already announced that you aren't interested in evidence and that no evidence could affect your thinking. Therefore, I can't use any of your thinking for anything including this.

Is it really about winning a debate when lives are in the balance. We have one chance to get this right. Are you willing to gamble your eternal future on it?

Unshared premise. You haven't made the case for a god or that lives are in the balance. Anything that follows from an unshared premise is useless to whomever you are trying to persuade.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This whole "peer review" thing to me, is a load of old cods if the peers accept everything that science is suggesting as gospel, with no actual evidence?
You obviously do not understand the peer-review process since it is the opposite of what you're saying. What peer-review does in reality is to give other scientists the chance to observe the data and respond to it, whether they are in agreement with said data or not.

All we have to do is open our eyes and our hearts...both appear to be closed by godless, hopeless, blind evolution.
The ToE does not posit nor deny God, which has been explained to you many times, so it begs the question why you keep pushing this falsehood?

And there is nothing that science can offer that would make me abandon my belief in God or to deny the awesomeness of what he has made.
I have never asked you to do so, nor would I ever do as such, so why are you implying that I have?

Are you willing to gamble your eternal future on it?
Aren't you now being judgmental? Don't you understand where Jesus was coming from when he said "...judge ye not..."? Aren't you familiar with Paul even saying that he was unwilling to even judge himself?

Why do you think you can play God and judge others, Deeje? I do take the Jewish and Christian scriptures seriously as I read them literally every day of the week, but the one thing I don't do is to go around judging others.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Could it be, as I told you there, that the truth doesn't change. Facts don't change....so if science has to continually change its tune when the next discovery exposes their error, then what it taught originally wasn't a fact at all

Knowledge grows, but only if you let it. If you seal yourself off from evidence, you stagnate at the point you did that. What doesn't change is you. You seem to consider learning a defect - a sign of having been wrong.

Individual scientists can be wrong, but science isn't. It's not telling you how the world is in an ultimate sense,but how it appears today. It did once appear that the expansion of the universe was slowing because of what was known at the time. We knew of a force that would slow expansion, and none to counter it.

Then new data arrived, and it appeared that the rate of the acceleration of the universe is increasing, for which a new concept was proposed: dark energy.

The old idea was the best at the time, but was tentative in the sense that it was amenable to revision if new evidence suggested that that was necessary. The new idea is also tentative. It is not a proclamation of how the universe is, but how it appears.

And now, additional evidence is casting doubt on that interpretation: Accelerating expansion of the universe - Wikipedia

This is the proper way to think. It is lithe, supple, and flexible. It is tied to the evidence, and goes where it goes.

As far as I can see to date, no convincing evidence has been produced to prove that macro-evolution ever happened.

Why would that matter to you even were it true? You don't use evidence. You choose what to believe by faith. You could just as easily have chosen to believe by faith that evolution occurs as to believe by faith that it doesn't.

And that should tell you that faith cannot possibly be a path to truth. If a method of knowing can just as easily be used to believe an idea and its polar opposite, it cannot be trusted. And this is the method you used to arrive at the ideas that you are calling truth, as in, "the truth doesn't change." You have no claim to truth because you have no method for determining it. You're just guessing and believing your unsupported guess.
 

Olinda

Member
The perceived conflict has more to do with a complete lack of evidence on the part of science to prove that their theory is true.
Once again. . .
1. There is evidence, lots of it. Denial is futile.
2. Evidence does not "prove" truth, but makes a difference in probability. Lots of evidence makes lots of difference.
But please don't pretend that macro-evolution has one shred of solid evidence that it ever happened. That is based on the scientists' belief...the theory remains unproven and always will.
See the paragraph above. Reasserting a debunked argument demonstrates nothing.

I guess being able to harness the power of the atom is proof enough of its existence. Do Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring a bell?
Oh yes, certainly. They remind me of my rebuttal of this point in post 134, page 109. I asked how the release of energy 'proved' the exact structure of the atom. To my surprise you didn't respond, but are now trying the same argument again.:D
That depends on your mindset.....do you speak for all the readers here? You will never stop believers believing and the undecided need to know that the whole theory is not all its cracked up to be.
The 'undecided' need to keep educating themselves rather than 'taking sides' which is an easy and lazy option.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You obviously do not understand the peer-review process since it is the opposite of what you're saying. What peer-review does in reality is to give other scientists the chance to observe the data and respond to it, whether they are in agreement with said data or not.

OK, Mr Google tells me....."Scholarly peer review (also known as refereeing) is the process of subjecting an author's scholarly work, research, or ideas to the scrutiny of others who are experts in the same field, before a paper describing this work is published in a journal or as a book."

So tell me metis, how many of the "peers" who are reviewing these "scholarly works" do not believe in evolution?
"Experts in the same field" are hardly going to disagree with the first premise, are they? :shrug: You are talking about details, not the theory itself, which has no verifiable foundation.

The ToE does not posit nor deny God, which has been explained to you many times, so it begs the question why you keep pushing this falsehood?

This is a conclusion I come to when so many evolutionists proudly proclaim their atheism. Atheists seem to be in the majority, whilst those who throw their hands up stating "I dunno" are not in a much better position as far as God is concerned.
The indecisive person is a bit like the "luke-warm" Christians that Jesus addresses in Revelation. (Revelation 3:14-22; James 1:5-8)
This is the time for decision...we all have to make one because there are only two roads, and we are all on either one or the other. There is no fence to sit on. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Aren't you now being judgmental? Don't you understand where Jesus was coming from when he said "...judge ye not..."? Aren't you familiar with Paul even saying that he was unwilling to even judge himself?

I am judging no one....simply telling you what the scriptures say about the way it is at this point in history. Those in Noah's day didn't listen to him either, but I assume that the people ended up regretting the fact that they treated him as a bit of an crazy man. Once they realized that he was telling the truth, it was too late to change course.....Jesus said it would happen again. (Matthew 24:37-39) Do I remain silent or do I tell an unpopular truth?
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Why do you think you can play God and judge others, Deeje? I do take the Jewish and Christian scriptures seriously as I read them literally every day of the week, but the one thing I don't do is to go around judging others.

Was Jesus judging when he taught his disciples and the crowds what God required of them? Or was he giving them food for thought? We all have the same information, but we all obviously have different responses to it. Why do you think that is?

You don't have to believe me metis, but God is right now warning the world to take notice of the message that is being sounded in all the world before the end of this entire system comes crashing in upon an unsuspecting population. (Luke 21:34-36)

As Jesus said..."This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

Can anyone afford to
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The stakes are very high. I wish people would just listen.....:(
 

Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
OK, Mr Google tells me....."Scholarly peer review (also known as refereeing) is the process of subjecting an author's scholarly work, research, or ideas to the scrutiny of others who are experts in the same field, before a paper describing this work is published in a journal or as a book."

So tell me metis, how many of the "peers" who are reviewing these "scholarly works" do not believe in evolution?
This is a strange question. In science, no scientific theory is believed or disbelieved. Just test findings against reality to see whether it explains reality relatively accurately. The most reliable description of reality. That's what science does.

No beliefs involved.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The purpose of this thread was to demonstrate that the ToE is not supported by evidence, or provable science....only by biased interpretation of fossil remains and the power of suggestion made by those who carry weight in the scientific world. You are welcome to all of that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the theory of evolution is supported by mountains of evidence, fossils being only a small part of it.

Let's begin with the kind of evidence available to Darwin

[1] Fossil evidence - Darwin had seen extinct transitional forms document change in traits through time. For example, Darwin found the larger fossils of extinct sloths in the same region as present-day sloths.

Since Darwin’s time, many more transitional forms have been uncovered such as Tiktaalic, an extinct fish-amphibian intermediate, Archeopteryx, an extinct dinosaur bird intermediate, and multiple hominan fossils of extinct forms leading to man.

We have also examined much of the geologic column, and find the fossils stratified, older ones being deeper and more recent forms above them, including more complex forms not found in deeper strata.

[2] Vestigial features in animals - These include tiny, useless leg bones in whales, dolphins, and some snakes, and unused eyes in blind cave fish. Darwin was the first to describe and interpret these traits.

[3] Biogeographical data. Darwin observed the variation in the Galapagos finches, especially their beaks, that varied according to island and food source. Darwin reasoned that they shared a common ancestor, and had transformed over time to optimally exploit their local food sources.

He was also aware of how the marsupials of Australia seemed to have the forms and behaviors of the placental mammals, and surmised that these two groups of animals evolved to fill corresponding niches.

Today, we can add ring species, such as the salamanders of California’s central San Joaquin valley that gradually transform as they migrate around some natural barrier. Neighboring variants are still able to mate, but eventually, as the ring closes, the variants on the two ends cannot reproduce and are therefore considered separate species.

Likewise with the Larus gulls of the arctic, who don’t get further north than a certain latitude, and created a similar pattern around the northernmost circle available to them – neighbors are variants that can breed, but by the time the ring was closed, it was now two different species of gulls meeting.

[4] Structural homologies - Darwin pointed out that if all mammals descended from a common ancestor, and if that ancestor had a limb with the same basic arrangement, then it would be logical to observe that its descendants had a modified form of the same arrangement. Darwin was aware that the same bones in the same relative positions occur in primate hands, bat wings, bird wings, which suggested common descent.

[5] Comparative embryology - Darwin was not only aware of the vestigial bones in some adult forms, but their more pronounced appearance in their embryos such as legs on dolphin and snake embryos, and tails and gill folds on human embryos. Today, man has a vestigial tailbone, the coccyx, but as an embryo, he has a full tail.

Based on all of those observations, Darwin suggested that all life descended from a common ancestor in the manner described in the definition of evolution.

Since that time, we have accumulated other kinds of data not available to Darwin.

[6] Evolution has been reproduced in the lab and documented in nature such as fruit flies that have lost the ability to interbreed and became two new species, multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurring within 250 years of introduction of a founder species to the islands, and five new species of cichlid fishes forming in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species.

[7] Genetic evidence - chromosome homologies, common genes, “junk” DNA including endogenous retroviruses, a common genetic code, molecular clock evidence in the DNA which timeline corresponds with fossils and radiometric dating data, and human chromosome 2.

[8] Molecular evidence - common biological pathways such as the (Krebs cycle), common A, B, O blood typing and the Rh factor, the insulin molecule, and the proteins responsible for color vision (same as those found in Old World primates but absent in New World primates and from all other mammals.

[9] Bacteriology, virology, immunology, pest-control - the way that bacteria evolve in response to antibiotics and viruses evolve to require new vaccines

[10] Nested hierarchies in the anatomy, biochemistry, and genetics of living things. We can think of these as nested boxes. Consider a large box containing two or more smaller boxes, each containing two or more even smaller boxes, and so on, until we reach the smallest boxes, each containing an object similar to the object in the adjacent box, and less similar than what is contained in the smallest boxes in the adjacent next to smallest box. The tree of life is organized that way.

Species are the smallest boxes. Similar species are grouped as a genus, the next larger box, and so on up the largest boxes, the various kindoms such as plants, animals, and fungi.Taxonomic groups fit neatly and completely inside other taxonomic groups. All monkeys are mammals, and all mammals are vertebrates. Likewise, all dolphins are also mammals, and thus also vertebrates. But all penguins are birds, and also vertebrates, but not mammals. This is what evolution predicts. The same relationships are seen in the eznymes and other proteins of living things, and in the DNA. Two kinds of monkeys will have more similar chemistry and genetics than a monkey and a dolphin.

[10] The predictive power of the theory and the ability to use it productively in areas such as medicine and agriculture.

At this time, the evidence for evolution is so robust that there can be no other naturalistic explanation for it. If the theory had to be tossed out, all that is left is that a deceptive intelligent designer seeded the earth with fossils in strata and arranged the DNA of all living things to make it appear that evolution had occurred.

“Consilience” is the word used to refer to multiple independent avenues all pointing to the same conclusion. That is, when multiple sources of evidence are in agreement, the conclusion can be very strong even when none of the individual sources of evidence is significantly so on its own.

For example, it should not matter whether one measures the distance between two points by satellite imaging, by laser rangefinding, or using a yardstick - in all three cases, the answer should be approximately the same. And if that happens, we can be confident in that answer. Evolutionary theory enjoys that status.
 

Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
Hi It Aint Necessarily So

You're farting against the wind here. Luckily for humanity the major Christian churches in the world do accept the findings of science.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not unless all the other laws governing the universe are miracles.... Cause and effect dictates that whatever has an effect was "caused" by something or someone....so I believe that God "caused" it...he doesn't tell us how.He left that for us to figure out. We aren't at that level of intelligence yet.



It only has zero "known" scientific basis. Are you arrogantly suggesting that science knows all there is to know?
You act as if humans are gods....the most intelligent creatures in existence.....sorry to burst your bubble.
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But those men of science at who feet you worship, are not as smart as they think they are.

Actually, yes they are. The scientists are very smart.

The proof is in the pudding. Science has given mankind a working understanding of his world that allows him to understand how much of it worked, to predict what it will do, and at times to control it. These gifts have made our lives longer, healthier, safer, more comfortable, and more interesting. We have motors and engines to do our work, electricity to light up our nights, vaccines to prevent scourges like small pox and polio, the ability to communicate around the world realtime, and we have touched the moon and sent probes to other planets.We can fly and go to the bottom of the oceans.

Religion had a huge head start, yet has produced absolutely nothing to compare with that. There is no useful understanding of any aspect of life that has come from faith, prayer, or scripture.

That's how we decide who is smart and who isn't. It's the scientists, not the priests. The results of the two speak for themselves. The priests merely teach people to think like you do to throw stones at science in defense of their cushy jobs and weekly collections without regard for the effect it has on you or the people around you. They don't care.
Science%20vs.%20Religion.jpg


And yes, humans are the most godlike creatures known. We have reason, knowledge, a moral sense, an aesthetic sense, tamed much of nature, and have built great civilizations. That probably offends you.
 

Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
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I don't know why you got all those question marks out. Those guys from the fundy churches honestly believe that anyone who accepts evolutionary theory (derived characteristics and all that ) are devils. Nothing will change their minds. You're farting against the wind trying to have rational conversations with them.
 
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