Just Accidental?

[Deeje]

Christianity.

Which one?

Biblical submission is commanded

No it isn't. It is recommended....free will determines who wants to submit. Those who don't want to are free to do as they wish....but there are consequences for all decisions.

I don't see the relevance. Agreeing to follow somebody else's rules for a paycheck until you're ready to move on is unrelated to being commanded to submit to a god, king, or slave owner.

You don't think Christians are working for a reward? God is the one who sets the wages. (Romans 6:23)

Its more than anything money can buy. God asks us to submit to his sovereignty, but does not demand it. If you think the reward is worth it, you will do anything to gain it.

What issues would those be? Preferring dignity over worship? Rights over commandments? Citizenship over being a subject?

"Dignity over worship"?...isn't that a pride issue? How does that saying go...? "Pride goes before a fall".
How much is your personal dignity worth when it could be taken from you at any time.

"Rights over commandments"? What about countries where people have no rights? Your rights could be withdrawn tomorrow by the very ones you put in power. How secure does that make you feel?

"Citizenship over being a subject"? Now that's funny. You think you have rights as a citizen? Try breaking their rules...like trying to grow medicinal cannabis because your child has intractable epilepsy and the full weight of the law will throw you in prison and force your child to keep taking pharma drugs that don't work and that make them even sicker. You think they care about your citizenship?

Your perceptions are an illusion.....carefully managed to make you imagine things that are not as they really are. You will find out in the not too distant future that you may have placed your faith in the wrong people. Popular opinion is never a good indicator of what is true.

I've read the Bible. There is a master-slave arrangement:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." - Ephesians 6:5

Sorry. Not for me. Not my values.

Oh good grief....you think you can read the Bible and just make up your own mind about its contents and teachings from a cursory reading? You demonstrate no understanding whatsoever.

God's word does not work like that. Its just words on a page for those who have no respect for the Creator. Unless God opens the heart, nothing will penetrate. He keeps it that way so that those who disrespect him and his creation will never get to enjoy what he is offering. The reward is only paid to those who are humbly willing to work for it.

If you knew that here was a huge nugget of gold buried in your backyard, would you use a teaspoon to dig for it? How much effort you put in would be determined by how much value you placed on that treasure. No?

Slavery in Israel was more like employment, and in many ways superior. A person who was in debt, could sell his services to the one he was in debt to so that the debt could be paid. Everyone benefited. But today if people can't pay a debt or a company declares bankruptcy, the ones owed the money rarely see any of it, and the one who owed the debt gets away with not paying it. No one benefits except the lawyers and the liquidators. Great system eh?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How do you know this? No one was around all those billions of years ago, so whose word do you take on that score.....men with limited knowledge and lots of imagination or the one who actually created all of it?

Faith is required in either case.

Faith is never required. It is always a choice, and one always has a choice not involving faith. Just refuse to believe unjustified claims.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How much is your personal dignity worth when it could be taken from you at any time.

"Rights over commandments"? What about countries where people have no rights? Your rights could be withdrawn tomorrow by the very ones you put in power. How secure does that make you feel?

"Citizenship over being a subject"? Now that's funny. You think you have rights as a citizen? Try breaking their rules...like trying to grow medicinal cannabis because your child has intractable epilepsy and the full weight of the law will throw you in prison and force your child to keep taking pharma drugs that don't work and that make them even sicker. You think they care about your citizenship?

Your perceptions are an illusion.....carefully managed to make you imagine things that are not as they really are. You will find out in the not too distant future that you may have placed your faith in the wrong people. Popular opinion is never a good indicator of what is true.

I simply cant identify with this kind of thinking.

Oh good grief....you think you can read the Bible and just make up your own mind about its contents and teachings from a cursory reading?

Imagine the gall of making up my own mind or thinking for myself - an affront to Christianity. That is really the central struggle here, isn't it? Autonomy and free will versus submission.

Slavery in Israel was more like employment, and in many ways superior.

It was more like slavery.

If you find slavery superior, you should consider volunteering for it.

 

[Deeje]

Faith is never required.

Oh, but it is...more than you can possibly imagine. When you have no real evidence for something, you must take it on faith.
Macro-evolution is an assumption, not a fact. It is based on an imagined scenario that has no actual proof beyond the musings of scientists. You have to have faith in the institutions and educators who teach it. You have to accept their conclusions and findings even though there is not a single shred of solid evidence.

It is always a choice, and one always has a choice not involving faith. Just refuse to believe unjustified claims.

What does it take for something to be "justified"? Your agreement? Don't we all believe what we want to believe?

 

[Deeje]

I simply cant identify with this kind of thinking.

"This kind of thinking" is reality. You can run but you can't hide. Everything you value can be lost tomorrow. What God is offering can never be taken away from us.....not even by death.

Imagine the gall of making up my own mind or thinking for myself - an affront to Christianity. That is really the central struggle here, isn't it? Autonomy and free will versus submission.

The "central struggle" is the same for all of us. The truth is the truth and the lies are the lies....we have to decide what to believe. The condition of our hearts determines our response to the Christian message....we are either drawn to it, or repelled by it. That is all God needs to determine our future. It makes us either "sheep" or "goats".

It was more like slavery.

Not to them it wasn't. Israelite slaves were well treated compared to other nations like Egypt.
Slavery gave men an opportunity to feed their children and to eventually pay off a debt. Girls and women could be sold into service as well, and benefited from a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. There was no social security back then.
If you didn't work, you didn't eat.

If you find slavery superior, you should consider volunteering for it.

I am already a slave and a volunteer by choice. Its not the kind of slavery forced on us but the kind where you willingly serve a master because of the good treatment you receive, the payment of the reward and the fringe benefits. Nothing man can offer is comparable.

 

[Derek500]

How do you know this?

Empirical, verifiable evidence. That's how.

 

[Derek500]

Oh, but it is...more than you can possibly imagine. When you have no real evidence for something, you must take it on faith.
Macro-evolution is an assumption, not a fact.

Nope. Macro-evolution is a fact. Directly observed both in the field and in labs. You saying ridiculously things won't change facts, especially when it goes against reality. Reality works!

 

[Derek500]

This one was funny.

I am already a slave and a volunteer by choice..

Really? You volunteer to be a slave? I would call that crazy. Please, are you willing to do my garden while I whip you for not working fast enough? With no pay?

 

[Derek500]

"This kind of thinking" is reality.

Yes, some people do actually like being slaves. I think that they are crazy.

 

[Thumper]

...I am already a slave and a volunteer by choice. Its not the kind of slavery forced on us but the kind where you willingly serve a master because of the good treatment you receive, the payment of the reward and the fringe benefits. Nothing man can offer is comparable.

Not forced on you? But if you don't bow down in abject servitude, you will be punished in the lake of fire for all eternity. That's monstrous. What a horrible master you claim.

You really look forward to singing his praise for all eternity. Most people can't even do that for a few hours on Sundays.

And you really believe you will be happy in heaven while knowing about all the humans suffering an eternity in hell. That really say a lot about what kind of person you are, and it's not very nice.

 

[Deeje]

Empirical, verifiable evidence. That's how.

There is no empirical verifiable evidence for macro-evolution....its an illusion. It was created by the power of suggestion. What science has evidence for is adaptation.
Adaptation is not macro-evolution. One is not proof of the other and never will be.

Nope. Macro-evolution is a fact. Directly observed both in the field and in labs. You saying ridiculously things won't change facts, especially when it goes against reality. Reality works!

Sorry, wrong again. There are no "facts". Science wishes it could prove that all things evolved into what we see on earth today, but the truth is, they can't, so they make believe that its a fact.
What is observed is adaptation, not macro-evolution.
Since there is NO actual evidence for amoebas turning into dinosaurs, at the end of the day, all they have is supposition, suggestion and wishful thinking. (not to mention great graphics and diagrams) They can also make the fossils say things they never did, like good ventriloquists

Really? You volunteer to be a slave? I would call that crazy. Please, are you willing to do my garden while I whip you for not working fast enough? With no pay?

I am still puzzled how someone who can identify as a Christians can slap the Creator in the face and deny him as the originator of all life. His designs are clearly visible for all to see and appreciate..as long as they have not sold out to popular opinion. Jesus credits the Father as making the first humans, so is Jesus a liar? Why are you a Christian then? I think you need to change your descriptor, since it clearly isn't true.

Jesus was described as a "servant" of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27-30) We are servants of Jesus. And yes we willingly volunteer to be such with no material gain. That doesn't mean that there is no reward however. You obviously have no knowledge of the one you claim to serve.

I am also amused that you can respond to questions posed to other posters but ignore the questions put to you directly.
Why dodge them? Got something to hide?

Yes, some people do actually like being slaves. I think that they are crazy.

It appears as if you need to rethink your whole belief system. You can't have a foot in both camps. (Matthew 6:46)

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

When you have no real evidence for something, you must take it on faith.

No, you need not. One need ever have unjustified beliefs. Without evidence, don't believe it.

Macro-evolution is an assumption, not a fact.

What you call macro-evolution is not disputed in the scientific community. The scientists have reached a consensus, and it's not going to change to accommodate religious beliefs or fallacious arguments. Why should it? Why would it?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What does it take for something to be "justified"? Your agreement?

No. If a belief is justified, most critical thinkers and rational skeptics will agree that it is.

Don't we all believe what we want to believe?

I don't, and don't recommend that anybody else does, either. One needs some sort of anchoring to objective reality. If beliefs don't correlate with reality, they're not useful, and may be dangerous.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

"This kind of thinking" is reality. You can run but you can't hide. Everything you value can be lost tomorrow. What God is offering can never be taken away from us.....not even by death.

Those are your faith based beliefs. I have no reason to believe them, and neither do you.

The condition of our hearts determines our response to the Christian message....we are either drawn to it, or repelled by it. .

The condition of our minds determines our response to faith based claims. Why would I be drawn to one?

Not to them it wasn't. Israelite slaves were well treated compared to other nations like Egypt.
Slavery gave men an opportunity to feed their children and to eventually pay off a debt. Girls and women could be sold into service as well, and benefited from a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs. There was no social security back then.If you didn't work, you didn't eat.

Bring me the evidence.

 

[Deeje]

Not forced on you? But if you don't bow down in abject servitude, you will be punished in the lake of fire for all eternity. That's monstrous. What a horrible master you claim.

You really look forward to singing his praise for all eternity. Most people can't even do that for a few hours on Sundays.

And you really believe you will be happy in heaven while knowing about all the humans suffering an eternity in hell. That really say a lot about what kind of person you are, and it's not very nice.

I think you should get to know the beliefs of the person you are posting to before you go running off at the mouth......since I do not believe any of what you said that was a really wasted effort.

Those are the beliefs of Christendom, not Christianity....you should understand the difference.

 

[stevevw]

These are a few different species of ducks....one can only marvel at their artistic designs and color schemes.

Who could possibly think that these just evolved and turned out like this through the process of gene mutations and adaptation? What survival advantage is there in being this beautiful?

Here is another marvel that is supposed to have evolved by random mutations. The mural moth has the picture of two flies eating bird droppings painted on its wings. The detail is amazing and there is even a glint of light to make it all look more realistic. Not just that the moth puts out a pungent smell to match the bird droppings to make it all seem off-putting for any possible predators who may happen to like a moth for dinner. The flies are known by most predators to make them sick if eaten so the right sort of insect has been chosen to deter predators.

So how do random mutations along with natural selection paint such a detailed picture without getting it wrong in so many ways and so often and ruining the picture to be useless as a deterrent and not selected? Becuase random mutations do not know what is needed such as having the vision of the entire mural in mind when constructing the picture they will throw up any number of shapes and colours as blobs on the wings which have no meaning. How does it produce such fine detail in the colour of red on the flies nose which identifies the particular fly? It's like a screen printing of a mural that is perfectly duplicated on either side of the wings. For me, the picture had to be formed in one go to work as each part works together and gives the whole the needed potency to deter predators.

There would be a massive amount of shapes as well as connecting shapes that match that would need to be sorted and found to work. There would be many colours and their combinations to be found to work. There would be many locations on the wings to find and sort and all this would need to be done in concert with each component of the mural. Any part of that picture that was produced on its own would not mean anything and just be a blotch that would represent any number of markings that most insects and animals have that mean nothing but a pretty marking. Any two blobs would be the same. How many blobs does it take to paint a picture with such detail?
A mural on moth wings

 

[Deeje]

No, you need not. One need ever have unjustified beliefs. Without evidence, don't believe it.

But what if you only have two choices....is "I dunno" a good place to sit on the fence? What if there is no fence?

What you call macro-evolution is not disputed in the scientific community. The scientists have reached a consensus, and it's not going to change to accommodate religious beliefs or fallacious arguments. Why should it? Why would it?

Who said anyone has to change their beliefs? If you have settled on what you are sure is the truth, then like the rest of us you will either stand or fall by your conviction.

That macro-evolution is undisputed in the scientific community means little to the Creator. That Noah was a religious lunatic was not disputed either. Popular opinion has a way of letting people down. If you were all wrong, what was the point of the unity?

No. If a belief is justified, most critical thinkers and rational skeptics will agree that it is.

What makes critical thinkers and rational skeptics think they are right?

One needs some sort of anchoring to objective reality. If beliefs don't correlate with reality, they're not useful, and may be dangerous.

My beliefs correlate to reality beautifully. Objectivity is a difficult position to define. Everyone has a vested interest in what they believe....even if its only the smugness of being right (in their own eyes)

Those are your faith based beliefs. I have no reason to believe them, and neither do you.

No one is forcing them on you. Your free will is respected. Your choices are yours to make. But you have to deal with the consequences either way. Every decision we make has an outcome.....expected or not.

The condition of our minds determines our response to faith based claims. Why would I be drawn to one?

If your heart is not drawn to God, there is nothing left to say. The mind (no matter how intelligent it m has little to do with what the heart dictates.

 

[Thumper]

I think you should get to know the beliefs of the person you are posting to before you go running off at the mouth......since I do not believe any of what you said that was a really wasted effort.

Those are the beliefs of Christendom, not Christianity....you should understand the difference.

So you don't believe in the heaven and hell narrative of the New Testament. Okay then.

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Also Matthew 25:41, Mark 9:43, etc.

 

[ratiocinator]

So how do random mutations along with natural selection paint such a detailed picture without getting it wrong in so many ways and so often and ruining the picture to be useless as a deterrent and not selected? Becuase random mutations do not know what is needed such as having the vision of the entire mural in mind when constructing the picture they will throw up any number of shapes and colours as blobs on the wings which have no meaning. How does it produce such fine detail in the colour of red on the flies nose which identifies the particular fly? It's like a screen printing of a mural that is perfectly duplicated on either side of the wings. For me, the picture had to be formed in one go to work as each part works together and gives the whole the needed potency to deter predators.

Do you think that making the "picture" in one go as you outlined is in the least bit realistic? Do you think people who study these things are too stupid understand that it's unrealistic?

Did you bother to even try to find out how these kinds of markings evolved?

Spoiler: How about you do before looking here?

The answer to your question is: gradually. Have you not heard of an of an evolutionary arms race or co-evolution?

I don't know details about this particular case, but the general mechanism is well understood:-

If you consider a predator with a very simple way of identifying moths, then even a slight smudge on the wing might confuse it and be an advantage for the moth - and such a change would spread through the population due to natural selection. That would mean that a slightly better way of detecting moths in the predator would then become an advantage to it and would spread through that population. That would mean that another slight change in the moth wing would be an advantage and the whole process repeats. Eventually you get predators that are very good at spotting moths and moths that look very much like something that predators will not want to approach.

 

[ArtieE]

A mural on moth wings

So what you are saying is that a god personally sat down and designed this moth and assembled its DNA so that the moth would look exactly like his design? And this god did that for millions upon millions of species on and off over the course of four billion years?